Understanding Trauma

The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk 

Anatomy of the Soul by Curt Thompson 

The Soul of Shame by Curt Thompson 

The Lord is My Courage by K.J. Ramsey 

Kasey: 

Welcome to The Table where we discuss issues of God and culture. I'm Kasey Olander. I'm the web content specialist here at the Hendricks Center, and today, our discussion is on trauma. So we're joined by my guest, Dr. Andi Thacker. She's associate professor of counseling ministries at DTS. I know you've been on the show a lot, but thanks for being back with us today.  

Andi: 

Thanks for having me. 

Kasey: 

Yeah, I'm excited for this conversation. This is a topic that has been really prevalent in society recently. People are talking all about trauma and have a lot of different ideas floating around. So the hope is for listeners after this conversation to just be a little bit more informed, a little bit more understanding. We're not going to train people to treat trauma on this episode. Obviously, we're going to leave that to the professionals, but the hope is that people will just have a better understanding and maybe we'll address some misconceptions along the way. So why don't we start off by talking about how you got interested in this topic, Andi, and why would this matter for people? 

Andi: 

Yeah. Well, when I was first out of seminary, my first job was at a psych hospital, and I noticed pretty quickly a trend that all of my patients there had some sort of trauma, generally childhood trauma. And about a year after that, I started my doctorate at North Texas and started working with kids, and thought, "Oh wow, if we could catch some people upstream, then maybe they could have some healing prior to adulthood and not have to have a hospitalization." They're appropriate when they're needed, but it can be kind of cumbersome at time, so it really piqued my interest. And then I really think all helping professionals got into their profession with a little piece of them wanting to fix their family, and that's a part of it for me. My family has been affected by trauma, so I have a heart for those who are hurting. 

Kasey: 

Yeah, absolutely. How would you define helping professionals? 

Andi: 

So counselors, even at times, pastors, pastoral care, social workers, psychologists, doctors, nurses, anyone who cares for the physical, emotional, or psychological needs of people. 

Kasey: 

Yes, yes. That's such a needed thing in society, like you said, because a lot of times, it's so prevalent with people that we know, people that are close to us in whatever kind of relationship capacity. So just to lay the groundwork, how would you define trauma? 

Andi: 

Well, trauma's a big word, and I think people hear that and they think what we would define as big T trauma, like a really big massive event like a natural disaster or physical or sexual or emotional abuse that's ongoing. But really, trauma is anything that stuns or shocks the system, and it's too much or too little, so much so that it sends a person's nervous system into fight or flight or into shutdown. So it could be witnessing something violent on TV for a kid. It could be losing someone's best friend. It could be any number of things that we don't always think of as traumatic, but it was too much for the nervous system at that time. 

Kasey: 

That really broadens the view. It's not just the things that are really big deal that we normally think of. You alluded to Big T trauma. What is that opposed to or what is that contrasted with? 

Andi: 

Yeah. So a big T trauma would be like a school shooting or domestic violence or intimate partner violence that's ongoing. Little T trauma would be something like a move, and it maybe is a good move, like a family's moving to a new house and it's going to be exciting, but it's still a loss and maybe it's unfamiliar for the kids, or they left friends behind, or any number of things that maybe doesn't stick out to us as that big of a deal. 

Kasey: 

But the fact that it can affect someone's nervous system in a similar way is what makes it able to be called as trauma. Could you unpack for us a little bit more, what is it that's happening in the person's brain and body? You said fight or flight mode, but what else is happening to someone when they experience trauma? 

Andi: 

Well, God made us to survive, so our bodies and our systems are hardwired for survival and that is always the first default. And because of how God made our brains, we are constantly taking in every experience we have and cataloging it, and all of this is happening below our conscious level of awareness. And every time we go into another situation, our brains are quickly and subconsciously looking through all of that previous experience, and based on what we experienced, is anticipating what's going to happen in the future. And so if you've had an experience that stuns you or shocks you as too overwhelming to the system, the body is going to move into survival mode and it will first try to do either fleeing, so that's when we talk about flight, or it will fight. 

So you have to shape someone in to have their default to fight. Our automatic default is to flee. If you can't fight or flight your way out of a situation, then you will drop down in what's called immobilization. And sometimes, people go into what's called fawning, and fawning can be an over pleasing, people pleasing, or immobilization is shut down. And so at immobilization, that's freeze. The body tries in many ways to get small and to be invisible or will begin to shut down in anticipation of death. And at those different levels, a person's ability to connect and to learn new things is diminished tremendously. All energy and all focus is now on how do I survive this experience? 

Kasey: 

That's huge. So to expect someone to do some other level activities like thinking, learning new things, their capacity for that is so diminished by their need, their hardwired impulse to survive. Like you said, that's the way that God created us and gave us some really interesting capacities for things. Can you speak a little bit to how that affects the brain if perhaps someone is experiencing trauma on a regular basis or even just once? 

Andi: 

Yeah. So ongoing traumatic material or traumatic experiences or singular events that have not been processed and had space to be dealt with, a person will at times stay in that fight or flight in a continual manner. So if you are at work and you're trying to focus on doing a task, and stimuli from the environment is signaling your brain that you're not safe, then you're not going to be able to focus to do that task. In kids in adolescence, it looks like inattentiveness, it looks like they're not paying attention, so it really impacts people's ability to learn and to get things done. As well as you can't connect relationally well when you're constantly anticipating danger or threat. 

Kasey: 

Which is a different one of our basic needs. 

Andi: 

Yeah. 

Kasey: 

Yeah, that interferes with our normal functioning and day to day. I hear the word triggered a lot. I feel like that's a pretty modern term that people use really regularly. How would you say is maybe a good way to define it correctly? People use it in terms of their political beliefs and other things like that, but what would you say that triggers actually might look like for somebody who's experienced trauma? 

Andi: 

Well, it can look like a lot of different things, and sometimes it's confusing to folks because it isn't tied directly to something they remember about the trauma or it doesn't make sense to them, but for their body and their nervous system, it is something that they probably experienced or coupled with the traumatic experience that when they experience it later, it causes their nervous system, red flags to go off. So it could be anything. And for some folks, political beliefs could be triggering, or religious beliefs. It really is in the eye of the beholder. 

Kasey: 

That's a good word and that's interesting, to think of trauma as not just whatever stereotype someone might have or whatever preconceived notion, but that it's in the eye of the beholder makes it sound like it is based on how their nervous system responds. Why is it that maybe the same stimulus would affect different people in different ways? 

Andi: 

Well, we're all different, and some of our personality and temperament traits make certain folks a little more sensitive to certain stimuli. So some people have a sensitivity to visual stimuli or auditory stimuli, and it's not bad or wrong, it just means they're different. Also, we all have different resources. So as an adult, I have a lot of resources at my disposal to access when I feel threat. Part of it is I have had a lot of training and I've been committed to my own therapeutic work, so I have years of experience working on my stuff. I also have more volition than my little guy who's the youngest of our family. He's in kindergarten and so he doesn't have as much free will as I have to be able to get out of a situation, because he can't drive. He also doesn't have the years in therapy that I have or the financial resources or whatever. And so not everybody is well resourced as others, and so they don't have the ability to access those like other people might. 

Kasey: 

Yeah. Yeah, that's fascinating. What are some common symptoms of people who have experienced trauma and had some long-lasting effects from it? And I guess I want to tease out the fact that somebody can experience trauma and have some really long-lasting repercussions. Another person can experience the same traumatic event and not be considered traumatized, I guess. Is that fair language to use? 

Andi: 

Yeah, yeah, definitely. 

Kasey: 

Okay, great. Then what would you say is some things that might look like for the person who experiences the long-term repercussions? 

Andi: 

Yeah. Well, there is a clinical category of this and it's what we call post-traumatic stress disorder, and so those folks are going to meet criteria for having ongoing symptoms that interfere with their functioning significantly. There are also folks that may not meet that category threshold but I would still say have experienced trauma and maybe experience the negative effects. So on the extreme end, we're going to see disruptions in daily functioning, inability to sleep well, inability to concentrate, maybe some depression or anxiety, difficulty relationally, problems at work, problems at school. One big thing that people often will experience is what we call hypervigilance, and hypervigilance is where your body, specifically your amygdala in your brain, what we might call the watchman is on high alert. And so if someone were to drop a book or slam a door, you might see a greater startle response than someone else. 

Kasey: 

That makes a lot of sense. Is it fair to say that it's almost like a spectrum how someone might respond to trauma? 

Andi: 

Yeah. 

Kasey: 

Okay. 

Andi: 

Yeah, definitely. 

Kasey: 

All the way from not having any lasting repercussions to this. Like you said, they could have all of these things, the hypervigilance and the increased stress responses. So as we mentioned before, obviously our listeners are not now going to treat everyone that they know with trauma, but what are some common ways that you've seen people recover from trauma? 

Andi: 

Well, therapy is a big one, and I'm a big believer in what we call somatic therapies that involve the body. And why I think that is important is because trauma is stored differently in the brain than other memories. It gets stored kind of fragmented, kind of like if you were to look at a mirror and it had been shattered but the pieces remained, the reflection is jagged so it's not complete autobiographical memory. So also, the part of the brain that's responsible for language sometimes tends to shut down during traumatic experiences. So people may have conscious recollection, but they may not have words to go along with it and they're like, "I just don't know what to say or I don't know how to describe this," all the way on the spectrum where some folks will just completely shut down. They don't have any conscious memory of it. And so when that happens, there's not material to process verbally, and so we use specific therapies that involve the body to help a person process. 

Another big thing is relationship. So like you mentioned, we were created for relationship and connection and belonging, and those are inextricable needs of being human. And without those, that is equally as traumatizing as other experiences, and so that I believe is the vehicle through which God brings the most healing, is being in relationship with someone who is safe. And part of what is helpful is having a regulated nervous system for someone who is feeling dysregulated to kind of borrow on. So if you're in the presence of someone who is safe and who is well attuned, they're making good eye contact, their facial expressions are saying, "I'm here, I'm with you. I'm safe, I care," then it's going to automatically calm your system and give you space to be able to explore hard things. So the relationship is really the crucible by which healing can occur, and there may be different modalities and different techniques, but that has to be present for healing to occur. 

Kasey: 

Wow. I feel like I need to think so much more about that, because isn't that what God does with us? 

Andi: 

Yeah. 

Kasey: 

The fact that it's relationship with him that is an avenue for our healing from sin. Well, I guess how would you respond to someone who's maybe a little bit wary about this modern psychology or science? Should we really listen to that? Because I don't know if scripture talks specifically about trauma. How would you interact with that? 

Andi: 

Yeah. Well, that's kind of our specialty around here in the counseling department. So we believe that God provides his general revelation through people that believe in him and people who don't believe in him, and that comes in the form of psychological advances, medicine advances, all kinds of things. And so as long as what is being discovered and put out there is not contradicted by scripture, and that's where scripture interpretation is really important because sometimes we don't always interpret it accurately, but that's where that's really important because if it's not contradicted, then that is something that God has given us that is a gift and it should be used because it gives so much freedom, and the Bible is silent about certain things. 

Kasey: 

One of his common graces to us is he designed a world with order, and so it makes sense that as we have the capacity for learning new things and doing research and exploring more about what he's created, that of course we're going to find some patterns and learn some things about maybe how to help people who've really experienced the world's brokenness. So is this conversation about trauma just for a select few? Is trauma super rare? How likely is it that our listeners know somebody who's experienced trauma? 

Andi: 

So I'm going to take a big stance here that I think everyone has experienced some form of trauma. 

Kasey: 

Okay. Please unpack that for us. 

Andi: 

And there's varying degrees, and if we're using the definition of experience something that's too much, it's overwhelming or not enough for what the system needs, then we've all experienced that. We also have all at this point lived through a pandemic, and so we've all experienced a global trauma. We also, because of globalization, we have access to a lot of media sources for lots of different countries and nations, and we are privy to the information and the trauma that other people groups experience, which is good in a way. 

Also, I've heard researchers say we were not hardwired and geared towards taking in all of the news of every village in the world. We were really only geared and hardwired to take in our village's news and information. So if you think about that and then think about all of the stimuli that people are exposed to all the time, and that even witnessing a traumatic event unfold on the news can be traumatic for some, then we've probably all experienced it. We also, between Eden and Heaven, we're all broken and touched by that brokenness because of imputed sin and because of our own volitional sin, and hurting people hurt others. And so there's no way of getting out of this life without being wounded by someone, so I think we all have it. 

Kasey: 

Yeah, that's really huge. I think maybe even levels the playing field, so to speak, that all of us are walking around in this broken world and hopefully gives us some compassion for people. People might have some responses that we don't understand, and thinking about the fact that someone experiences even the same circumstances in a different way than I do, maybe I can have more compassion for them not knowing why that's like that for them. Is there a Common misconception, I suppose, that, okay, well, even if trauma is a big deal, if somebody just moves on from it, time will heal it? Is that something that you've heard before? 

Andi: 

Oh, yes. I hear that all the time. So there is always outliers and the possibility that in God's common grace, things happen like that. My experience has been that more often than not, time doesn't heal wounds, it just festers them. So it's like an unaddressed wound. I mean, if you have a big gash on your leg and you don't care for it well, it's not going to go away. It's going to get infected and that infection is going to spread. That is generally how unattended emotional wounds play out. 

Kasey: 

Wow. Yeah, I can see that being significant for someone having not addressed it. You talked earlier about the somatic kind of therapies that are oriented around the body. Can you explain a little bit more about what some of those might look like and how that might address some long unaddressed wounds? 

Andi: 

Yeah. So part of what the nervous system does when it's mobilizing for survival is the body gives a pretty big energy release in fight or flight so that the person can survive. So this is why you can read accounts of mom's lifting cars off their child, and she would've never been able to do that, nor should she be able to do that because she's not a superhero. I mean, she is because she's a mom, but she shouldn't be able to do that but she can. That is a huge mobilization of energy, or of people running great distances or doing things that are not common. That energy release, especially when someone is immobilized and that energy just gets trapped in the body, and that trapping in the body creates the adverse symptoms that many people look at as the after effects of trauma. And so part of somatic therapy is letting whatever didn't get to be completed get completed. 

So if you're looking at someone who was a part of a mass shooting and they had to lay really still and couldn't move, there was energy going in their body but they were containing it to survive. So part of the process of somatic therapies is listening to what the body is saying and letting the person explore, what did not get completed? What did you have the urge to do? And they may say, "Well, I really wanted to get up and run, or I wanted to fight back." And so you can use imagery and the mind to explore, "Well, let's just imagine that you can do that, or maybe even let's let your legs pump back and forth and run." And so some of that is discharging the energy so that it's no longer stored as traumatic material in the body. 

Kasey: 

Wow, that's fascinating. So it's not necessarily that that person needs to literally run five miles and then it'll be okay, but I think it sounds like you're talking about being in a safe environment with somebody who's willing to help them understand their experiences of what their body might need, that they may not even have paid attention to at the time. 

Andi: 

Yeah, because they couldn't pay attention to it. And some of it at times with trauma, medical procedures can be traumatizing. Even though they're lifesaving and they're really important, sometimes, people don't know that their body wanted to do something different because it's still hardwired for survival, and that part of your body is not rationally thinking, "No, I really need this surgery to survive, so this is okay." It's still cataloging all that experience and it just needs space to work that out. 

Kasey: 

That's fascinating. So is that limited to just a therapy setting with a licensed therapist? Are there other ways that somebody could physically maybe work through some of those things? 

Andi: 

So there are some resources that are for the general public. So there's a book called Healing Trauma by Dr. Peter Levine, and it's a 12 step model that you can go through his steps to just explore befriending your body and really connecting to it. So that's one of the things that trauma does is it disconnects us from our body, because part of dealing with the after effects of trauma, if you're having… I like to say, "Wow, your body's really talking to you." If someone's having a lot of those after effects, saying, "Your body's talking and we need to listen." A lot of times, our natural inclination is to shut that down and not listen because it's distressing to us, and we may not know what the link is and so that's even more distressing, so we shut that down. So his book is really about befriending the nervous system. 

There's another great book called Anchored by Dr. Deb Dana, and she uses what's called polyvagal theory to walk through, again, befriending your nervous system. So for some people, that will be sufficient and adequate, and then for others, a clinical therapeutic setting is really warranted, either in a group or an individual setting. 

Kasey: 

Sure. Yeah, that's fascinating. I think this is such an interesting topic, and the fact that God designed us so intricately and the fact that we can learn all of these things really, I think is really beneficial and helps us, no matter if we're trained professionals or lay people in whatever area. Like you said, if we all have experienced trauma, then we all know a lot of people who have experienced trauma, and so we can think about all of the people that surround us every day. And even the people that we're connected with digitally, it sounds like you're saying that in today's digital age, we're exposed to such an overwhelming amount of information that maybe people in previous generations didn't have the access to. Is there, on the flip side of that, some positive things that have happened, maybe some treatments that have come about because of the way that technology has advanced recently? 

Andi: 

Yeah. Well, telehealth has grown exponentially. We have a lot of privilege in the United States and many people do have access to services, but many people don't, so the presence of telehealth helps folks in rural communities or in areas where there may not be a therapist who is licensed to work with folks. Also, globally, being able to reach folks in another country that don't have access to services is really beneficial. As well as that connectedness piece, that relational piece. Being able to connect with others who have had similar experiences, knowing you're not alone is really powerful. 

Kasey: 

It's like utilizing that technology that can be overwhelming or distressing or stressful, but rather turning it and being intentional with helping people to connect with one another and experience that relational safety that you were talking about. 

Andi: 

Yeah. 

Kasey: 

Yeah. Makes a lot of difference. So you talked about earlier that trauma can inhibit people's normal functioning, functioning at work or at school. Is that to say that if someone is functioning really well, then they haven't been traumatized or that they're not experiencing the effects of trauma? 

Andi: 

Oh, no. Some people, they can push through things and that may be kind of a blessing or a curse to them. Because they may look like they're okay, they may just power through. So as I've worked a lot with kids, and a lot of it applies I think to adults as well. So females tend to have more of what we call internalizing behaviors and it's depression and anxiety, and that tends to be true across the lifespan. So thinking about in school or maybe in an adult setting, those are behaviors, because they're going on below the surface, they don't raise red flags because they're not causing problems. Whereas men tend to have more externalizing behaviors, so it could be aggression, anger, outbursts, and so that tends to get a little more attention because it can be more disruptive. But some people, they just keep going. And folks also can use different strategies to numb, and that numbing can help them get through the experience that continues to be detrimental to them. 

Kasey: 

What would you encourage someone to do who's using some numbing strategies? I guess what would the strategies be and then what encouragement would you have for them? 

Andi: 

Yeah. Well, there's a spectrum or a continuum when we talk about numbing strategies, so the ones that most people tend to think of is drug and alcohol use or pornography use, any type of addictive behavior. If it is to a place of using substances like drugs and alcohol, there needs to be some sort of intervention because it can be detrimental to the person physiologically to just stop use or end things that way, so in that manner, there probably needs to be some medical intervention. Anything that's a distraction to us can be a numbing agent, so that can be social media, that can be TV, that can be food, that can be shopping, that can be working. 

And I've noticed that a lot of times, especially in Christian circles, we have our taboo numbing strategies that people either keep hidden really well or they don't use, but then we have our socially acceptable ones, and that's being really busy for the Lord. That's a good numbing strategy, and it's not wrong to do things for the Lord, but if it keeps you from addressing your pain and your woundedness, then it's a problem. And so I think some of it is giving yourself compassion to know that what you're doing is normal. 

You're doing the best you can in that moment to try to survive and to get through these adverse effects, because a lot of times, we tend to go to that place of, "Wow, you're a horrible person. You shouldn't be doing this." When we do that, we're triggering a nervous system response within ourselves, and we're probably triggering that sense of shame and hiding within us. So you want to approach with compassion and caution and say, "This has be effective. It's just not beneficial and useful in the way I want it to be," and so then giving yourself freedom to change and to change at a pace that's manageable. 

And if you take away a coping strategy, you have to deal with whatever that was that you were using it for, and you have to replace it with something that is more beneficial. So you can't just take it away because you'll figure out something else or you'll go back to that. 

Kasey: 

But maybe having a healthier strategy, which could be different for everyone. 

Andi: 

Mm-hmm. 

Kasey: 

Sure. It could be exercise, it could be taking a nap or other kinds of things that we can do to care for ourselves. 

Andi: 

Yeah. 

Kasey: 

The way you're framing it makes me think of the same idea could be applied, whether someone is talking to themselves or talking to someone else, the same kind of compassionate attitude towards it rather than the attitude of condemnation. "I can't believe that you would use that as a coping mechanism," can be said to ourselves or to somebody else, and so what do you think that it is about the attitude of compassion that is the gateway for healing, rather than shame? 

Andi: 

Yeah. So I think there's a lot of misconceptions in that, that we think that we change best out of fear or out of condemnation, and that can bring about momentary change, but it really will create more hiding strategies because it ignites that shame, and shame always causes us to want to hide. And so what compassion does is it offers empathy, and empathy is that sense of, "I am willing to sit with you in the pain and the sorrow that you're experiencing, and I'm not going to try to give you some pithy answer and explain it away or tell you that you're bad. I'm going to see that you're struggling and you're hurting, and in this moment, you really need love." And so what that does is that helps people know that it's okay to come out of hiding. And so compassion, either compassion to others or compassionate self, is one of the first steps to true change. 

If you feel like you're not safe, you will never be able to truly bring about lasting change, and if another person feels like you're not safe, they will never fully let themselves be open with you. And so a lot of times as a counselor, I know that there's a lot of my work that I do that I'm proving that I'm safe and that I'm not going to hurt that person and I'm not going to condemn them, and I really think that all behavior makes sense when you understand it in its context. So showing people compassion is not going to cause them to sin more or to do more that's unhealthy. It's actually going to be a gateway through which they can find freedom. And if we look at Jesus as he walked the earth and the account that we have of that in scripture, he always met people with compassion. He may have had boundaries in that compassion, but he was never disparaging, he was never mean-spirited. He got them better than anybody else could get them. 

Kasey: 

I love that you said it that way, that it's not a gateway for more sin. I think that that's sometimes our fear, is, oh, if I seem like I accept this in any way, then the person will keep doing it, and of course, I want them to pursue holy living. I want them to honor God. And of course, we do want people to pursue holy living and honor God, but meeting them with the spirit of compassion and long-suffering and empathy as a gateway to lasting change is really crucial. 

Andi: 

Yeah. Well, there's a quote by a counseling theorist. He says, "We're not free to change until we're free to not have to change." And I really think that resonates with who God is and how he meets us, that we don't have to get our act together. We don't have to be sinless, we don't have to be enough or be anything for him to love us and have already died on the cross for us. 

Kasey: 

Yeah, while we were still sinners, while we were his enemies, Christ died for us. 

Andi: 

Yeah. 

Kasey: 

That's beautiful. And what a picture that can be to somebody if someone meets them with that same compassion, that God did that for us first and he sets that example for us. Wow, I love that. So in light of that, how would you advise people or caution people? What should I say or not say to somebody who has experienced trauma, somebody who has trauma in their background? How can I address what they're experiencing and what are some dos and don'ts? 

Andi: 

Yeah. Yeah. So I'll borrow from Brené Brown. She talks about with empathy, you can always tell that a non-empathic statement starts with the words, "at least." So someone's had a really bad car wreck and is feeling traumatized having those symptoms, and a non-empathic statement would be, "Oh. Well, at least nobody died." Or someone has a miscarriage, "At least you can still get pregnant," or, "At least you still have other kids." That's not good. 

Kasey: 

An impulse to add a silver lining. 

Andi: 

Yes, exactly. And so a lot of it is one tuning into your comfort level with people's suffering in sorrow. So when we enter into empathy with others, we're having to get in touch with that feeling that they're having within ourselves. So when I sit with someone who's grieving, if I'm trying to empathize with them, I'm having to get in touch with what grief feels like within me, and that can make me really uncomfortable. And so in that moment, there are times that we want to naturally diminish that discomfort because it may feel unsafe, and that's normal. But in that moment, we have to be really careful not to try to diminish that and settle our own nervous systems. And so one way to do that is to notice what you're feeling, to notice what you're experiencing. If you have that inclination to want to say, "I know it will get better," you don't know it'll get better. So that's another thing to not say. "I know you're going to get through this." No, you don't. You have no idea. 

So a great thing to say is, if you don't know what to say, again, I'll borrow from Brené Brown. "I don't know what to say right now but I'm just really grateful that you would include me in on this. I know this is really hard. I'm so sorry for what you're going through." Not every situation this would be appropriate, if it's a professional situation, but a friend or a colleague or a loved one where this is appropriate, even at times, just a knowing look and a touch on their hand or squeezing their hand is all that's needed to say, "I'm here." There have been times that I've just sat in people's presence and we didn't say anything. Or to say, "I don't know what lies ahead but I'll be here for you." 

There's also things too, when people have let me into their world to let me know about an event that has been traumatic, I try to make notes in my phone, so on my calendar, so that it'll give me reminders of anniversary dates, of times just to check in on them and say, "Hey, I was just thinking about you. I really appreciate you sharing with me last week. I just want you to know I'm thinking about you." Sometimes with folks, I don't say anything. I send them a heart emoji, and that's just my code for, "You're on my mind." There are times that scripture and talking about God can be really, really comforting to folks, and then there are a lot of times when it's not, so I use a lot of that with caution. 

So I'm even really careful just because of the presence of spiritual abuse, that I'm very careful to even say, "I'm praying for you." So a lot of times, if I don't know if it's going to be okay, I'll just say, "Hey, I'm really thinking about you a lot." So sometimes, it can be helpful if it's appropriate to share maybe your experience. However, I think it's important to never say, "Oh, I know exactly how you feel." Nope, you don't. And sometimes, that can ignite people's anger of, "You have no idea how I feel." So if you don't know, you can say one of, "I remember a time where this happened to me and it was really hard, and I imagine that's a really hard time for you as well." 

Kasey: 

Yeah, that's really helpful. That gives a lot of things to say, and I love that you caveat all of them. You can't make any assumptions with people. I think that's what I'm gathering. 

Andi: 

Yeah. 

Kasey: 

Everyone's different and everyone's situation is different, and the way that they might even receive certain words might hit them differently. And so it sounds like it all depends on the context, your relationship with them, what might be appropriate and what might be hurtful. And I think that also maybe even gives a little bit of a sense of freedom. I don't have to have all the right things to say before I meet somebody who's suffering. I don't have to know all about trauma and become a licensed therapist before I talk to my friend who's been through a traumatic event, but being present with someone can be a lot of times just what they need just with a situation elsewhere at the time. 

Andi: 

Yeah. Well, and I think, and something you shared reminded me of not having all the answers. I think we want to help people so much that we want to try to fix it. Most of these situations are not fixable, really ever. 

Kasey: 

You can't undo it. 

Andi: 

No, it can't be undone but what we can do is we can walk with them, and we don't have to paint the silver lining. And we're all going to say dumb stuff. I say things, I've done this for almost two decades and I've had a lot of training, and there are times that something comes out of my mouth and I'm like, "That was not it. That was not good." And so in that moment, that's okay. You just own it and you repair. And so I'll say, "Oh, that was really insensitive. I'm really sorry. I missed there. I'm really sorry." And so you just repair. 

Kasey: 

Yeah. Can you talk briefly about what rupture and repair can do for relationships? 

Andi: 

Yeah. So God in his infiniteness, I don't know how he did this, or it just amazes me. So like a broken bone, it follows that principle, if you break a bone and it's set properly, when it heals back, that portion of the bone is going to be stronger, stronger than if you had never broken it. Relationships are the same way. So my relationship with my husband and my children, if I repair well when I mess up and I wound them, then our relationship is stronger than if I'd been a perfect wife or mom. Which is, I'm like, wow, okay. Thank you God for that, because I'm far from perfect. And so we do a lot of apologizing in our house, and that's all you need to say. And at times, there does need to be reparations. There are times that the wound is so deep that there needs to be reparations. 

And in the circumstances of trauma, there's times where reconciliation is never appropriate, but these everyday ruptures that occur within families that maybe aren't as toxic or they're not as deeply wounding, saying, "When I said this, when I did this, I was wrong and I'm so sorry. Period. Would you consider forgiving me? Period." And then just leave it at that. There are so many times that we want to be like, and I do this a lot with my kids, "I'm so sorry you got hurt. But if you had listened to me and not jumped from the coffee table to the kitchen table, you would not have broken your collarbone." That's not a teachable moment in that moment. It's just a time to repair or to give empathy. Later will be times to teach. 

Kasey: 

So I feel like that's reassuring that we don't have to have all the answers, and even if we do say the wrong thing, it actually might even, by the grace of God, strengthen the relationship rather than ruin everything. 

Andi: 

Yeah. 

Kasey: 

So we don't have to be fearful about entering into difficult spaces with people. And you mentioned your experience. I think that it seems like something that we may not be perfect at it but maybe gets easier with practice. 

Andi: 

It does. 

It does. 

Kasey: 

That's reassuring, and I praise God that he gives us people to walk alongside us, people for us to walk alongside, and also all kinds of tools and common graces for addressing the trauma of the broken world that we're in. 

Andi: 

Yeah. 

Kasey: 

Are there other resources that you would recommend? You alluded to a couple of books for people who've experienced trauma. Are there other resources that you'd recommend, just for people who want to learn more about trauma in general? 

Andi: 

Yeah. So probably hands down, the most informative book on trauma at a high level and what it does is The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk. And he covers everything, and it's great. From a faith-based perspective, Dr. Kurt Thompson has written several books about shame, and shame is always present when trauma occurs, so those are great. Anatomy of the Soul, The Soul of Desire, and The Soul of Shame are really useful. Deb Dana has written several books that are really helpful about managing the nervous system. Peter Levine, Waking the Tiger or In an Unspoken Voice are really useful. And then from a perspective, and this takes more of a church hurt perspective, but it integrates theology and psychology and polyvagal theory and it really unpacks that well, is the Lord is My Courage by KJ Ramsey. 

Kasey: 

That's helpful. Well, we're about out of time. I think that there's a lot more that we could talk about, but I'm really grateful that we got to do this overview of trauma together so thanks for being on the show again, Andi. 

Andi: 

Yeah, thanks for having me. 

Kasey: 

And we want to say thanks to you, our listeners, for listening to The Table Podcast, and we hope that you'll join us next time when we discuss issues of God and culture.