Global Perspectives: India

Darrell Bock: 
Welcome to The Table. We discuss issues of God and culture. I'm Darrell Bock, executive director for Culture Engagement at Dallas Theological Seminary. Our topic today is global perspectives being focused on India. And our guest is Timothy Muthyala who is in India and where specifically in India are you? 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
Hello everyone. I am in the Southern part of India, in a state called Telangana, and I'm in the capital city of that state, which is called Hyderabad. So probably some of you might have come across people from my state in the IT sector. Usually there will be one. So it's quite popular for IT industry. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
So Hyderabad is located kind of in the middle of the country, in the Southern sector. Is that a fair description for where it's located? 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
Yes, it's kind of southeast, I would say. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Okay. 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
Yes. South central they say. Yes, south central. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Okay. What do you do in India? Just some personal stuff first. What's your role in India? 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
Yes, right now I'm teaching at a couple of seminaries as an adjunct faculty. I teach there twice in a week and then the rest of the time I'm working on a online theological education app for pastors in local languages. So that's the major work I'm involved with. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Okay. So that's a great transition. So let's start there. So first of all, and people probably may or may not be aware of this, how large a country is India in population? 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
Wow. It's only second to China. India is 1.4 billion populated country. So yeah. I think only we have China ahead of us. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Yes, and which means that, what, one out of every eight people maybe is Indian? 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
True, because yes, it's seven odd billions. So of course, probably seven or eight people. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Yes, okay. So that explains why cricket is so popular around the world. We'll talk about that later. And here's the thing, I'll tell you a story before I ask this question, you'll get a chuckle out of it. At one point, of course, I go over to India on a regular basis to teach, and at one point I thought I'm going to sit down and see if I can learn the language that's spoken in India, other than English of course, and what the national language is. And then I did my work and figured out: there is no such thing. There are many languages in India. So just to give people a sense of what that is: what are some of the major languages across the entirety of the country? 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
Wow. That's a probably a difficult question because we have more than 1,000 languages which are listed as languages spoken by different ethnic groups, but 21 languages are counted as official languages in the country. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
21, just 21? 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
Just 21. So, the states are also divided according to the languages initially. So that's one criteria in which the states were divided. Probably out of the 21, I would bring it.  
 
Darrell Bock: 
Okay. That simplifies it significantly. Just eight languages you need to learn to get around in India. If you don't, if they can't use English. Go ahead. 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
That's true. So Hindi is the most popular language with almost, I mean, I cannot think of the percentage, but almost all the states, except a few states probably are the exception, but most of the states would understand the Hindi as a language in the marketplace, I would say. Except two or three states which do not probably are exposed to Hindi, but official language in a way is Hindi after English. 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
So Hindi and English are the languages in which government tries to convey to the people across the nation. But even the local languages are very strong, so local dialects are also used by the governments whenever they want to communicate. So after Hindi, I would say Bengali is another language. Tamil is another language. Telugu is my own native language, which is also on the top, like fourth highest speaking language and then Kannada is one. So Odia is another one. So these are some of the popular languages. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
So you can't get into the country unless you can name the top eight languages of the country. Is that, I mean, so how much overlap is there between those languages? In other words, is there enough overlap between some of them, that if you know one you might be able to understand the other or are they really distinct languages? 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
One influence I can think of is the influence of the Sanskrit. There was a time in Indian history where Sanskrit was very influential. So there is that influence of the Sanskrit on different languages including Hindi and my own language and others. There we can find some sort of similarities in vocabulary, but if you are really, the pinpoint on particular languages, I think it's difficult. I don't think people would understand, one people group would understand the other. So they are distinct except for the influence of the Sanskrit I would say. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
So if you didn't have… I'm spending time on this because it's actually important. You know, people communicate culturally through their language and through their shared culture. And so when they don't share a language, that can be an issue. So if you didn't, if you hadn't had English and you didn't have Hindi, you would really have a mess, wouldn't you? 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
Yes. Except from the city structure I would say, or cosmopolitan regions or the city capitals, state capitals, where we have better education, accessibility and cultural, I'm looking for a word that would get us through. So the cultural influence of English and other languages is more seen in the city. So except in cities, in the rest of the towns and villages I think it is very difficult to navigate with the Hindi and English. Yes. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Interesting. So in an urban environment in India, you'd be okay, but if you ventured out then you'd have issues in terms of interaction and that kind of- 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
Well said, well said. Yes. Urban India is more diverse in its exposure to English and Hindi. So yes, it's better there. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
So let's, a couple of other demographic-like questions. I guess the way I want to ask this is, since I'm assuming that languages connect to some degree to the various ethnicities that are a part of India, so the ethnic background of the country is as diverse as the language diversification. Is that, would that be fair to say? 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
Absolutely. Yes. I think language definitely has ethnic background behind it. So yes, that's I think correct to say. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
So all this to say that the Indian culture is a real mix of variety of cultures and backgrounds, variety of histories etcetera. That has been a challenge. Let me add one more element to the equation, and I'm speaking as someone who knows very little about Indian history, but that is, there was a time when India and what is now Pakistan were the connected to each other, is that correct? 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
Yes. That's true. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
And that separation happened, what, in the 1940s, am I correct about that? 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
Yes. India won, got its independence from the British empire in 1947. By then, larger India included Pakistan and also on the other side, on the Eastern side we have Bangladesh which- 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Okay. I was going to ask that next. So good. 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
-that was also part of India. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
So, and part of that and what if I may, what motivated that division, both with Pakistan and Bangladesh? Was that primarily religious, ethnic, cultural, a mix? What produced that? 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
It is more on religious basis it appears to be because certain groups of people insisted on having a nation for the people who subscribe to Islam. So it, yes, I think it was done on a religious basis. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
So, I know that's the case with Pakistan. Is that also true of Bangladesh that it has an Islamic influence or is it another religion? 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
Probably it was on the basis of, I think there probably it was Bangla, Bengal and there was, I don't remember exactly what's the reason probably. I want to just step away from that. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Yes. Okay. All right. Fair enough. So let me back up. So all this is important background because I'm actually working to this question I'm going to ask now, which is that: would it be fair to say that India, at least currently sees itself as primarily a Hindu nation or is that an influence from a certain segment of India that currently has power? In other words, what's the religious makeup of the nation, is actually what I'm asking. 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
Originally, if we go back to the Indian history, we find India to be rather a group of small nations coming together. Each geographical location was actually ruled by different kings, but the major consolidation came with the rulers who came from the outside. Either it is from the Mongol rulers from the Middle East, Persian Mongol rulers from the Middle East, or the rulers that came after the Dutch Middle East, the Dutch and East Indian Company, the rulers that have come. So they are the ones who actually consolidated India which was before a group of different nations ruled by different kings. 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
If we go to the religious background of India, probably I would say Indian Hinduism is also a difficult term to actually understand today because people say, especially many scholars would say, Hinduism, as it is defined and described today, is much different from what it was earlier. Hinduism in itself is so diverse that you cannot speak of Hinduism, but you have to speak about Hinduisms. So it is so diverse. So that's one difficulty that we have when we speak about Hinduism. Hinduism practiced in different ethnic groups or different cultural parts is much different from some of the ways in which people claim that to be Hinduism. So that's part of the problem. 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
But India as a Hindu nation, I think is a term that has been coming up only in the recent times, if I'm not wrong, maybe from 1920s and '30s, there was this moment that began by a group of people who began to think and see India as a Hindu rashtra or Hindu state. But before that, it's difficult to see if anybody saw India as a whole as a Hindu nation. Today only a group of people who claim it, who want to claim India for Hindus. I see the point behind that, why they say that stating that other religious groups have actually invaded or came into India from other nations. But yes, Hinduism as we see today and the popular Hinduism also probably was made into India through Aryan invasion, is what people would say. Yeah, if you want me to expand on that, maybe we can. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
No, that's enough. What I'm trying to do is to paint the picture of how complex the culture of India is that the church has to operate in. So let me ask one other background question, and that is: what are the major religions in India and kind of, if you can rank them in size, if that's possible? 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
India is a land of religions we should say. India was the birthplace of some of the religions, if we include Hinduism. Hinduism is the largest religion. Then Islam is the second largest religion, then probably is Sikhism. Then comes Jainism, Buddhism, Christianity. These are the major religions I can think of, but there is a presence of Jewish settlement also in India from the time before Christ actually. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
So how do I want to ask this? So, is the influence of Hinduism significantly greater than those other religions? Or are they about the same in number? Cause you mentioned four or five. 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
Yes. I think if we think about Jainism, Sikhism and Buddhism, they are more like a reaction to Hinduism. So, I would say Hinduism has predominant influence on Indian culture for sure. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Okay. 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
We take [crosstalk] together. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
And then is the concentration regional? For example, I think I've heard that Christianity, at least until recently, was much more significantly populated in the southern part of India than in the rest of India. 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
That's true, that's true. I think, if we think about India as a whole, the Christian population is more densely populated towards the south of the nation. Kerala is the state with the highest Christian population in the South. And then probably Tamil Nadu and Andhra also has a significant number of Christians. Apart from the South India, Northeast India is also populated with a heavily Christian population. So yes, one of the reasons why this has happened that way is because much of the missionary work happened in the South. Traditionally, even Thomas also came to South India. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
One of the apostles which is a very strong tradition that Thomas was the one who helped plant Christianity in India. Let's talk about one of the, I keep saying I've asked my last demographic question, but I keep thinking of new ones. So when we think of core cities in the South and some of these states that have significant Christian population, I'll think about Hyderabad, I'll think of Chennai. I'll think of Bangalore. Are there other cities that belong in that list? 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
Yes. Kerala is another state I would add to that. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Does Kerala have a major city in it that reflects the state or is it pretty much significant across the state? 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
I think, yes. It's across the state, I would say. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Okay. All right. So, we tried to paint the landscape there which is really a historic mix. I mean, if you want to think about a place that's a melting pot in some senses of the east, India certainly qualifies. Let's talk about Christianity in the Christian Church for a second. Obviously this is a huge challenge. Christians are a minority in India. And is there an estimate as to the percentage of Christians in India? 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
Yes. Official statistics say that there are only 3% of the whole population out of 1.4 billion. It's only 3% to 4% probably now. That's the official statistics about Christianity. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
So I'm trying to think through what that would be. That's still several million believers, right? Yes. 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
40 million. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
40 million. Okay. So 40 million Christians in a country of 1.4 billion, the numbers are large. And of course one of the challenges for the church in my understanding would be is that you have a lot of people who lead churches and lead Christians, but they're not all significantly trained to be pastors. Is that also a fair description of the situation in the country? 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
Yes. When it comes to the leadership and church responsibilities, definitely most of the pastors are not trained. They believe that Lord has called them probably after they are saved in a church. Then usually they stay under the pastor for some time and then when they feel that they are called for ministry, then based on whatever they have learned from the pastor, they will just replicate that in ministry. But usually even that pastor is also not a formerly trained person. So I think Dr. Ramesh Richard mentions about only 6% of the people are theologically trained and in India, I would say that is fairly correct. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Okay. So you've got two significant challenges for the church in India. One is the fact that it is such a minority on the one hand. And the second is that the training of the leadership is a challenge on the other. I'll say it that way. I mean I know, I mean, I'm aware of all kinds of schools spread across the country, but their reach is actually pretty limited in some ways. And so in terms of the total number of people who are leading churches and that kind of thing.  
 
Darrell Bock: 
Another strange question perhaps, well, let me do it this way before I ask that question. How many denominations are we dealing with? I mean, I'm assuming that we've got a real mix there as well. 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
Yes. I think you name any denomination that is present in India. There are hundreds of denominations- 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Any dominant ones? 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
Any dominant ones? It looks like the Charismatic Pentecostal Movement is growing large here. I would say Baptists are big and the Anglicans are also quite a few. So I would say maybe non-denominational people who don't claim to be part of any denomination are probably the highest in number, and then probably the Pentecostal charismatic groups, and then comes the main line, the so-called mainline churches, like Baptist, Anglican and Methodist and so on, so forth. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
How networked are these different groups or they pretty much operate separately? 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
You mean how they operate together? Or- 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Yes. How they operate together? 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
Oh, wow. That's a good question. I think usually they try to stay away from each other. It appears like, as churches at least people feel that they belong to certain denomination. So they try to be, kind of show their religions to their particular denomination. So yes, I think the borders are quite strong at certain places. Probably in the cities it is slight lesser because of the exposure to different churches. But I think in rural India, definitely the boundaries are very rigid. People who would not go to the other. Yes. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
So another issue that often happens in countries like India, it seems to me is that the role of the pastor takes on in a social function and has a kind of certain cultural power. I'll use that word that makes the position attractive to pursue. Even though Christians are a minority, it gives them a certain status in the Christian community, etcetera. It comes with certain authority. It represents a way of exercise, a certain kind of control if I can say it that way. And so all these things are a part of the mix, which adds an element of: if someone's untrained in Christian circles, then the potential for abuse in the office is significant. Is that a challenge in India? I think that's the way I'll ask it. 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
Yes it is. I think because of the lack of training, we see problems at different levels not only with respect to teaching and equipping the church but also socially we carry the baggage of caste system that is so prevalent in India. Probably that's one of the background questions that was supposed to be there. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Yes, you're right. I actually had planned to bring it up and I forgot to. So I'm glad you've mentioned this. Talk a little bit about, that's another dimension, besides the mix that we have and the ethnicities and the way in which the country was put together and the religious mix, which is its own challenge. So I mean languages and, languages plural and religions plural. Okay. Let's talk about the caste system. And if you'll tag onto the end of that, what's happened more recently with Dalits in Christianity? 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
Yes. Unfortunately, Indian caste system has been there for several centuries, but according to one estimate they say it was codified in way that is existing today some 1000 years ago. But before that the caste system was not so rigid. It was more in the lanes of the profession that people practiced. But as it progressed further, it became more identified with the person born into a certain community. 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
So there are four predominant caste in Indian caste system: the Brahmins, the Kshatriyas, the peasants, and then comes the untouchables or the ones who are, they are not untouchables, but they are the ones who are, the below ones. They are also other group of people who don't even fit into this category. So they are called [indiscernible], or those who don't even fall into the caste system. So these four groups have been part of the society and predominantly the first three classes have been exercising a kind of leadership in the society at various levels, the priestly class, the warrior class, and then peasant or the business class. So these people were controlling the society for ages, and then comes the section of people who are expected to serve the above classes. So that's a brief. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
And so, and just to be clear, if you're in those bottom layers, I'm not sure quite how to ask this. So I'll just do the best I can. You're actually not viewed as being, I'll say it this way you can correct me, as human as the other classes. Is that a fair characterization? 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
Yes. If you fall out of these four castes, four groups, then they didn't have any caste or they didn't have any recognition. So people would say they were treated as if they were not even human. So that's the level of discrimination you see. So, if you are in the caste system, the fourth level of people were treated badly. As you come inversely proportional, then the people who are not considered as part of these four are even more treated inhumanly. They're not even treated as human beings. 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
If I want to connect it to the Christianity now, that's why I started this word with, this discussion, especially on caste with unfortunately, because when Christianity came to India through missionaries, primarily it attracted the people who are considered to be untouchables or people who are considered to be outcaste, who are not part of other castes or who are really treated bad in the society. They were the ones who were attracted to the gospel first and they openly and [inaudible] embraced the gospel. And ever since that stigma of Christianity being associated with the lower classes or lower caste just remained that way. Things have changed from there to now, but not significantly. Still we hear now and then if a person is a Christian, then probably people would assume that they are from certain caste or from the [indiscernible] class that is once untouchable. So- 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Go ahead. So when we think about the Dalits, which am I right that the Dalits are more in the Northern part of India than they are in the Southern part of India or are they spread across the country? 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
They are spread across the country. So all these castes, all the four castes that I mentioned and the untouchables, all of them are spread across the country. You find them in almost in every village, you'll have the four classes. So probably the number might vary. Usually the Brahmins are lesser in number. The first top people are less in number, but yes, Dalits are spread across the nation. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
So here's, I guess my last question, because we're running out time and this has been great, Timothy. What do you, if you were to list the challenges for the church, okay, and we've already listed, I think some of them, the fact that it's a minority, the fact that it's got that there is a dominating culture that has a long history. That's a part of the identity of the nation, the variety of languages and cultures that Christianity has to cope with in the country, the way in which the Christian denominations operate, kind of to themselves, besides that, as if that wasn't enough, what other challenges exist for the church today? And are there particular challenges that exist? Cause my understanding is, is that the level of pressure on the church has increased significantly more recently. 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
Yes. Out of all the challenges with the rise of new political movement that is more tilted towards Hindu religion that came into power to, I mean, almost a decade ago, they always had the emphasis on Hinduism and Hindu state even before that. But in the recent times, that treasure or that color has been kind of decimated into the society and that is causing a problem to many Christians across the nation. Yes. That's the biggest challenge, I see. 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
Especially with respect to inter-religious tensions that we see across the nation. On one side, as a democratic nation, we are given the privilege of practicing our own religion. But on the other side, there is this new ideology that is being promoted saying an Indian should be a Hindu. So they're trying to replace the words with each other, which is a problem because India has always been a nation with several cultures, with several religions living here, coexisting in this place.So that's a big problem that we are facing right now. And I see that it will continue to grow as we move forward in ministry. So that's one major problem I would say. 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
The second major problem I would say is within the Christians. I think there is, as we already mentioned it, there is a lack of theological training to the people who are really working at the grass root level. So that's one issue that probably needs to be addressed as we move forward. And if we, even though Indian Christians are only 3 to 4 or 5% of the total population of India but still that is a significant number. To cater to such a huge number, we need more leaders. More resources are needed. So that's one of the challenges that I see going forward to equip the already Christians in India. 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
These are the two major challenges I see, but COVID has brought in new challenges with digital necessities. In much of the rural India is not digitally prepared for such a change. So that's another new dimension that we are seeing today. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
So there's an intensification of the isolation that the pandemic has brought that, because these churches are not able to work at a digital level, leave them very, very isolated. 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
Yes. I think many people were isolated because of this new situation. And people had to migrate to places, especially to their native places from where they came from. So this has definitely disrupted the ministries and been speaking to a pastor recently. And he was saying his church is more located in an urban setting, but it's a place where there are certain companies located. So most of the people during the pandemic have migrated from this region to their villages. So they are left with very few people in the church now, so, 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Oh, wow. Let me ask you one final question, at least in this go around. And that is what about out the atmosphere of the communities within the churches? I guess my question would go something like this, when you think about grace and legalism within the church communities, how much of an appreciation is there of grace and how much legalism exists in the churches in India? 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
Wow. Yes. You asked the question which is very broad for sure. But yes, I would say it would be more on a legalistic note then a grace-based. So trying to give people do's and don'ts and certain groups of people trying to kind of hold the positions in the church and trying to control. Even the caste system is played. In certain caste- 
 
Darrell Bock: 
That's actually why I asked the question is because the influence of the caste system would be open to that kind of a mood. 
 
Timothy Muthyala: 
Very true. So the cultural nexus or the whatever is happening in the society, is also prevalent in the church sadly, which is not supposed to be the case, but you, often times you see that's what is prevailing. You think about marriages, you think about certain functions, house dedications or things like that. Immediately, you see that color of certain shade of their caste coming into play. I would say that is the case that is prevailing, but there are some good new movements. There are good movements that try to overcome those barriers, but I think we have long way to go with respect to those things. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Interesting. Well, Timothy, I want to thank you for joining us on The Table and kind of giving us a global perspective on India and helping people who may not know very much about the country at all, a glimpse of what's going on there. So I want to just thank you for speaking with us, and I want to thank you for our audience for joining us on The Table today and please do subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app and leave us an honest review. This helps us to have more people discover what we're doing with The Table and with these conversations, and we hope you'll join us again next time on The Table where we discuss issues of God and culture.