A Biblical View of Sex, Love, and Marriage

Chasing Love

Speaker 1:

Welcome to The Table Podcast, where we discuss issues of God and culture, brought to you by Dallas Theological Seminary.

Del Rosario:

Welcome to the table where we discuss issues of God and culture. I'm Mikel Del Rosario, cultural engagement manager at The Hendricks Center at Dallas Theological Seminary. And today, we are talking about sex, love, and marriage, and we're joined by Sean McDowell, Dr. Sean McDowell at Talbot School of Theology, teaches Apologetics there in the Apologetics program. My alma mater, on both counts, undergrad and MA in Apologetics. Sean and I go way back to our undergrad days. If you've seen the show before, we've talked about that.

Del Rosario:

Sean, it's so good to have you.

McDowell:

Mikel, thanks for having me back, buddy.

Del Rosario:

Yeah, it's really, really good to see you again. Now, I want to get started by thinking about this whole idea of sexuality in regards to a defense of the faith. You are well known as someone who helps people think through how to explain and give good reasons for what we believe. How do you see the relationship between apologetics and this whole area of sexuality?

McDowell:

I actually think some of the biggest apologetic challenges to this generation are not that Christianity is false but that Christianity is bad, that it's not good, that are many feeling shamed into their beliefs and either reject those beliefs or just live them out with a little bit of defeatism because they don't understand why those beliefs are good and true and beautiful.

McDowell:

So, a part of our task in helping kids make wise decisions about sexuality is a worldview and apologetic component. But it's not just that the Bible is true and the biblical sexuality is true, it's actually that it's good, it's that it's beautiful and that ultimately, God is a God worth trusting in His character and His commands.

Del Rosario:

Now, you wrote a book on this whole topic called Chasing Love and I have it right here. It's a really good read, Chasing Love, Sex, Love and Relationships in a Confused Culture is the subtitle. And as I was reading it, I was pretty happy, actually, I didn't know when I first got it that it was written for Gen Z.

McDowell:

Okay.

Del Rosario:

And I actually gave it to my son, just left it there in his room, like, "Hey, if you want to check this out, my friend Sean wrote this." And in one setting, he got to chapter six.

McDowell:

Wow.

Del Rosario:

I'm going to bring the book back after our podcast, just leave it there and see if he picks up the rest. But, Sean, in your book, there are a lot of parents who struggle with a lot of the questions that you've written about in your book and this is a really broad question but I put it out there to a number of parents on social, "What do you struggle with in terms of this whole area with your kids?" And a lot of them were saying, "How and when to talk about these difficult conversations in terms of sexuality and gender identity and things like that." It's a really broad question but how would you answer a parent who asked you that question?

McDowell:

Let's start with when. And the answer to when is as soon as a kid is out of the womb. Now you think, "Wait a minute, a two week old, two year old, how does that happen?" Well, by the way we talk with a child, by the way we relate to a child, by the way we appropriate touch a child, we are beginning a kind of sex education you could say so to speak.

McDowell:

So one simple way is when we're younger, rather than saying to a kid, "That's your ding-dong or your wee-wee," just say, "That's your penis. That's your vagina." And show comfort with the body that God has given us. And that shows a comfort between the parent and the child to talk about these kinds of issues. My son is eight years old and the topic of abortion came up. I have three older kids in our home and it came up. And in the car he goes, "Dad, what's abortion?" I'm thinking, "Okay, he's eight. How do I have this conversation? This is an opportunity." But tailor it in a way that makes sense to an eight year old that I don't give more than he's asking and less. I don't pretend to always get that right but that's the goal.

McDowell:

So I think we should look for opportunities from the earliest stages possible just to affirm what it means to be a boy, what it means to be a girl, God's design for sex in age appropriate ways. Now, there may be a time when you sit down and have the talk in more depth. But, I think the best education about sex is just ongoing conversations that began really as soon as we're relating and talking with our kids.

McDowell:

Now, how do we do this that is a huge question. So, I guess I answered both but I would say, as it relates to this book, let me focus there because how you do it with an eight year old is different than a 12 year old versus a 16 year old. But one thing I did with this book is I'm just trying to come up with any ways possible to talk with my kids and engage them on issues of sexuality.

McDowell:

So, two examples. One, my daughter was 12, now she's 13. When I was finishing up the book, I said, "Hey, if you'd be willing to just read this whole thing and then we go to coffee and you just tell me what you think, what you agree with, what was interesting to you." I'm not going to lecture her but we talk about this, I'll buy you a pair of shoes. And she goes, "Dad, there is an outlet, I can get two pair for one. Will that work?" I was like, "Fine."

McDowell:

So, she read it and then we sat down for an hour, an hour and a half at the local coffee shop and my 12 year old daughter and I just talked about all the issues related to sexuality. On a separate how, my son, he was 14, now he's 16. He wanted to see this movie Bohemian Rhapsody with Queen a couple of years ago. It's PG 13, it had a little bit of suspect content in it but I read, I'm like, "It's not too bad, he's 14." He asked me if he could go to it.

McDowell:

I said, "Sure. And you can bring a friend and I'll pay for you, I'll buy you popcorn but one deal. When we're done, I just want to come back, we'll sit down and talk, I want to know what you think." So I brought him, brought a friend, we came back, he led it, sits down and says "All right, Dad, let's talk. I was like, "Okay." So probably 25, 30 minutes, I was like, "Hey, what did you think about the movie? What did you enjoy? What was your favorite scene?" I said, "What do you think the message of the movie was? How do you think the message of this movie matched up with the biblical view? Did you ever feel the movie was preaching at you?" And we just talked about the message in relationships.

McDowell:

So again, when? As soon as possible. How? In conversations regularly and consistently in relationship with our kids.

Del Rosario:

That goes back to another conversation you and I had about the importance of relationships and the importance of parents in the lives of children speaking into this area rather than thinking about just having the talk or just these punctuated, here, we're going to sit down to have these talks. Setting a framework, really, a biblical framework for God's design and the beauty of God's design.

Del Rosario:

Well, for a Gen Z student who is thinking about this issue of sex before marriage, how would you answer the question, "Why should somebody consider waiting to have sex before marriage?"

McDowell:

Well, what I don't want to do is couch that question just in terms of the benefits the person gets, because this is one of the mistakes I think we've made in the past, what's called purity culture, is wait to have sex because in marriage, you'll have the best sex. That is basically saying, "Follow God's plan because it benefits you."

McDowell:

Now with that said, it is interesting that religious men and women, primarily Christians, report higher levels of satisfaction of sex lives. And that makes sense because if God is the designer of sex and we live and experience it the way He wants us to, there is a flourishing that I think is going to naturally come from this. But that's very different than saying to a young person, "Hey, don't have sex now. So when you get married, you're going to have awesome marital sex." That's like being obedient God because of what you get out of it. And that's not what the Scripture says because it just doesn't always work out that way.

McDowell:

What I would say is I would take a step back and I would say, "Okay, what you do with your sex live is a reflection of what you do with your life as a whole." Do you want to become the kind of person that loves other people and treats them the way they ought to be treated? Do you want to be a good person that really loves people or do you want to be the kind of person that uses people?" Because if you just want to be the kind of person that uses people, there is probably nothing I could say that can motivate you to think about what Jesus taught.

McDowell:

But if you actually want to love people, and I think in your heart you do, then let's take a look at the life of the person who arguably lived the greatest life of sacrifice and see what His sexual ethic is and why. And I think what you'll discover is that Jesus can be trusted, that His teachings 2,000 years ago make just as much sense today as when He taught them.

McDowell:

So the bottom line answer to your question is I would try to invite this younger person into something bigger and frame their sexuality in terms of what kind of person are you becoming, what kind of life do you want to live? And then, when we see it that way, I think it changes how we approach questions of sexuality, how we use our bodes. And ultimately, the biggest motivation, Scripture says, "Be holy because I am holy." Trust God because He's trustworthy, be holy because God is holy. That's the ultimate motivation, whether it benefits us in life or not.

Del Rosario:

In the book, you talk about Jesus' sexual ethic actually bringing us real freedom and you give a great example about driving your car. I've seen you do this illustration. Why don't you share that with us?

McDowell:

So let me take a step back and frame what I mean by freedom here because this is really important, I'm glad you ask this. In the first third of the book, I'm trying to strip away these secular ideas that even kids in our best Christian homes have adopted in many ways wholesale. And one is a faulty view of freedom. So I recently went to this group of Christian students at a Christian school, there is maybe a dozen of them, 17, 18 years old. And I asked them to give me a definition of freedom. In fact, the way I worded it, I said, "Who is truly free?"

McDowell:

And they talked amongst themselves, they came back, they said, "Freedom is doing whatever you want without restraint." I said, "Okay. Explain to me what the truly free person looks like. Paint a picture of that." And they said, "A person alone on an island where nobody is restraining them and they do whatever they want."

McDowell:

I said, "Well, if God exists, does this change the definition of freedom at all?" They said, "Well, if God exists, freedom is doing whatever you want without restraint but now there is consequences." So to these kids in great Christian homes, all God adds to the question of freedom is consequences in their mind.

McDowell:

I pointed out to these students that they only understand half of freedom. There is freedom "from," which is lacking restraint. But there is also freedom "for." We only know how we should live and what choices we make when we first know our design. So take a smart phone. Well, we know what the phone is for, then we know how we should use it. What's interesting is, in the Scripture starts by saying, "In the beginning, God created." We're told that God is a purposeful creator. Well, what are we made for? To be in relationship with God and relationship with other people.

McDowell:

That's what we're for. So a phone is for texting and emailing and calling. We are for relationships with God and other people. I said to these students, I said, "That means ironically, the least free person is someone alone on an island because they are not able to live what they are made for."

McDowell:

Now, think about it this way. I use the car example in the book but I used another example about a piano. Take a piano. So a free person is someone who sits down at the piano and says, "I can just bang this however I want to." Is that person free or is the person who understands the truth of the piano, the design of the piano, the purpose of the piano, and cultivates the discipline to use it according to its design and thus produces beautiful music. Which person is more free?

McDowell:

And I think we realize that freedom is not living without restraint. It's actually embracing the right restraint, which means living according to God's design. If we don't reorient in the lives of a young people what freedom is ,then we give them a biblical sexual they are going to filter it through this secular idea of freedom and not even realizing it.

Del Rosario:

That's great. Yeah, in the book, there is a question about hookups and what's so bad about a hookup and you actually bring it back to what is sex even for? Talk to us a little bit about the positive side of the beauty of sex and what that is for and how that helps inform the biblical view of the hookup culture.

McDowell:

So, let me connect some dots just for our listeners the way we do with our students. At the beginning of the book, the way you ask, freedom is aligning our lives with truth. So then, what's freedom in our relationships and freedom in sex? Well, that depends upon understanding the purpose of sex and its design and living out God's design. Well, I think Scripture teaches three things. Number one, in Genesis 1:27-28, God makes them male and female, so it's populate and fill the earth. So one is procreation, to make babies.

McDowell:

Second, we're now in Genesis 2:24, man leaves his father and mother, clings or bonds with his wife and the two shall become one. The second purpose of sex is a unique unity between a husband and wife, man and woman. The third purpose of sex that I believe is that it is a foretaste of heaven. I mean, it foreshadows what heaven will be like. Now, I don't mean in the way many Muslims will say, "If you die in a jihad, you get 77 virgins in heaven." That is not my point.

McDowell:

What I find interesting is in the Old Testament, the Hebrew word "yahda" which is often translated means sexual relations. Adam knew his wife Eve, Abraham knew his wife Sarah. The word "yadha" in Hebrew is a kind of knowing with somebody. You see, in our culture, we think sex is just a physical act. But it's actually a one flesh experience of the mind and the emotions and the relationship. It's a holistic kind of experience where you're intimately "knowing" somebody.

McDowell:

Well, there is no marriage and sex in heaven. But the kind of unity and bonding and relationally knowing of somebody in sex, at least the way it's meant to be, is a foretaste for the kind of way we will know God and know other people. So I don't mean heaven is in this sexual sense. I mean sex here on earth has a deeper knowing sense. In a sense, there is no barrier between you and somebody else, people are meant to be naked and not ashamed. In the sense that we don't wear a mask and we can love and be loved for who we are. That's how God designed sex to be.

McDowell:

And that is a sign post, a foretaste so to speak of the kind of knowing we will have of God and other people in heaven. I think those are the three purposes of sex, scripturally speaking.

Del Rosario:

So do you think then the hookup culture is actually related to a naturalistic view of the world? If human beings are just physical and have no spiritual component, does that make that connection in your mind?

McDowell:

I think that's exactly right. So Scripture teaches that we are embodied souls. You see in Romans 12, in Romans 6, it says, "Love God with yourself," and it says, "Love God with your bodies." So there is a sense where we're called to love God and other people with our souls, with our thinkings, with our emotions, and also love them bodily. We are to love God and love other people as unified beings.

McDowell:

What the hookup culture says is we can separate our body from our soul. That you can just give somebody your body, so to speak, for sexual pleasure without commitment, without relationship, and then move on with your life. And that's a very naturalistic idea. In fact, it probably reduces human being down just to a body. But the problem is, oftentimes when people will have sex without that commitment or relationship, there will be an emptiness, there'll be a sense that I want more because sex is meant to be experienced in a loving relationship. And we cry out for unity and we cry out for bonding. So, I think you are on the right track with naturalism undergirding much of the hookup culture.

Del Rosario:

And you're reminding me of another conversation we had in terms of showing people why God commands the things that He does for our flourishing, that we don't just point people to the Bible and say, "It's true only because it's in the Bible," but rather, "It's in the Bible because it's actually true," and to show people not only what the Bible teaches but why God has the best design for human flourishing. After all, He made us, He knows how we're designed, and how sex is best to be experienced in this world.

Del Rosario:

If you think about all the disorder and dysfunction in the world, much of it is actually related to what the Bible calls sin and in this area, the whole porn industry, the whole area of pornography comes to mind. You've probably seen an article that I've seen called "Sex before Kissing" where you have young kids, where you have 15 year old girls, many of them, who assume that boys are going to do really evil things to them in the sexual act because of how boys have been exposed to porn and porn scenes. I know you work with a lot of Gen Z students, how in your ministry have you seen pornography affecting people in this way?

McDowell:

Oh, gosh. I think pornography has changed everything, literally everything. I give you a couple of examples. Students are not first learning about sex from their parents, they are not learning about it form sex ed in school, they are learning about it from pornography, either through their friends or through seeing it. Pornography is the primary medium that is teaching this generation what to expect, how to treat people, and how to relate to people with their bodies.

McDowell:

That's a staggering, devastating fact if we start to think through it and apply that. The second thing is pornography has shifted these issues younger and younger and younger because of access that comes with smart phones. And even if a kid doesn't have a smartphone, I've heard of babysitters, I've heard of friends at school, teammates, you name it. Kids are seeing this younger and younger and younger. The reality is, we know from brain research, the younger that somebody sees these kinds of images, the greater imprint it has, so to speak, on their brain and affects them for the long run.

McDowell:

I posted on Instagram, there is this little post, I called it three myths of pornography and you click through, one, two, three. And one was, it doesn't affect me. And this guy made a comment, it was heartbreaking. He said, "Thanks for doing this. Someone showed me pornography when I was five. And it damaged me more than I can even explain." And this was an adult. So it's shaped the way they think about sex, the script of what young people expect to be honest with you, things like anal sex have increased in practice because people see it in pornography and assume that's what's pleasurable and that's how you treat people.

McDowell:

Another thing, I mean, it's amazing, we have this "Me Too" movement of women crying out, "Don't abuse me sexually." And I support that premise obviously, powerfully. But, not a lot of people who have pushed the Me Too movement have asked the question, "Where do men get the idea that they can take advantage of women like this?" And the elephant in the room is pornography. Pornography, so much of it has been documented to be violent and degrading and the woman smiles and enjoys it.

McDowell:

I think it's just every area affected relationships on this. And I think the vast majority of kids, even in Christian homes, are looking at it, at least to a degree, to be honest.

Del Rosario:

We had your dad on the show, talking about this very issue and he said something really powerful that I remember. He said, "As an apologist, I felt like if I did not address pornography, that I'm not fulfilling God's calling on my life." It was that powerful for him. He says, "One of the biggest barriers for kids coming to Christ is pornography." And he told the story about Cru did this survey at one of their events where 485 students were asked, "What is the number one barrier to you becoming a serious disciple of Jesus?" And he told us, "You will never believe it." He was telling Darrell Bock this, all 485 students said, "Pornography."

McDowell:

Gosh, I have never heard that.

Del Rosario:

And this is amazing. It is an area that is uncomfortable to talk about, it's an area that it's uncomfortable for parents, it's uncomfortable for youth leaders and pastors, but how would you counsel people who are working with students, especially, parents, teachers, pastors, to begin to speak into this area in a healthy way?

McDowell:

Well, I would counsel a few things. Number one, we've got to start young. I had a conversation with my eight year old, I defined pornography, it's just inappropriate images that people put on phones and on the internet, showing their bodies without clothes. Something like that to my eight year old and we read a book about how – just last week, it was like a kid goes like this, what do you do? You look away. And I practiced it with my eight year old.

McDowell:

The kid goes, "Well, come on, Shane, look at this, what are you, a sissy?" I said, "You respond back to me, I don't want to look at it, no thanks." I actually walked that through with my son and have him practice those things. So we got to start to young. And we have to give our kids practical tools, how to avoid some of the snares of pornography.

McDowell:

The other thing is we have to talk about it and teach on it. I was doing a weekend event with my dad and it was an entire weekend, Friday and Saturday. If I remember, we had eight or 900 people and it was on sexuality as a whole. And this 12 year old came up with his mom, maybe 12 or 13, he said, "I want to thank you for talking about pornography but not just saying it's bad, explaining why. Nobody had explained to me why pornography is bad."

McDowell:

Well, that kid just moved from a believing a rule, which could be legalism sometimes, to having a conviction that goes deeper in his life. So I not only taught against it, I taught here is what the Bible teaches and here is why God deems it wrong and gives us different directions for how we're supposed to behave. The other thing is when we talk about this, we have to just douse it, especially with Christian kids, in God's grace and love and forgiveness.

McDowell:

I had a girl email on my website, I don't know, if I remember maybe three years ago. And when I get emails, I never email back to a girl, but I tagged a lady, I said, "Hey, thanks for emailing. Here is a woman I trust, I want to connect you with her, she can help you out." So she was in the conversation chain. I said, "But just one thing I want you to know," because this girl that emailed in said she's struggling with pornography so deeply, she feels ashamed and can't quit." I said, "I'm going to hand you over to this friend of mine but I just want you to know that God loves you."

McDowell:

She emails me, just a few weeks ago and said, "That wrecked me. I didn't think because of what I was doing that God could love me. And when I read that email, I've not looked at it again."

Del Rosario:

Wow.

McDowell:

Now, not every kid who hears that message is going to respond the same way. But we have to teach why, we have to have good boundaries, build relationships with our kids, give them tools to say no, and just douse the entire thing with God's grace and love and acceptance.

Del Rosario:

It's an amazing story. I'm not sure, I don't remember if I said your dad's actual name for our listeners. Sean's dad is Josh McDowell and when I was growing up, I was in fifth grade, I read the "Why Wait?" thing and that was my first time hearing about Sean's dad, Josh McDowell.

McDowell:

That's cool.

Del Rosario:

But, if you go back in our archives, we have a show called Freedom from Pornography and that is the show that Sean's dad, Josh McDowell, is on. There is also a woman named Joy Pedrow on that show who is a DTS grad who works with women who are struggling with pornography addiction as well. So it's another thing that is not talked about as much is not only focusing on how this affects men but how this affects young women as well, and women of all ages, really.

Del Rosario:

There are some things in this book, Sean, that were not in the "Why Wait?" series that your dad did in the early days, in my early days at least. And one of them is something that nobody thinks about. It sounds crazy when I'm about to say it but, is it okay to have sex with a robot? Now, this is a crazy question for so many people because, mind blown, is this even a thing?

Del Rosario:

But apparently, at the American Association for the Advancement of Science, there was a doctor, and we talked about this and the psychological ramifications, the moral issues, how do we even begin to navigate a category that most pastors, most people in the ministry do not even have as something they need to think about in their minds.

McDowell:

In case people are still listening going, "Really? We're talking about sex with a robot, this is nuts." NPR, probably, I don't know, five or six months ago, did an entire show on conventions and the movement of people that are having sex with robots. This is a growing phenomena that we have to weigh the Christian worldview into today.

McDowell:

Now, one way is to talk about lust. This is the easy way out. If you're going to have sex with a robot, it's clearly going to involve a kind of lust and Jesus rules this out in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew chapter five. It's a heart issue of lusting. Now, to say, "Well, it's just a robot, not a real person." But it's made to look like a person, it's made to feel like a person. In some cases, made to smell like a person. So the fact that it's a simulation doesn't take away from the lust that I think Scripture would condemn. So that's the easy first point.

McDowell:

But the other point, and this has come up in some of the conversations, how does having sex with a robot shape our affections, shape our brains, and shape the way we treat people? That's a really interesting question. So if somebody is interacting, having sex with a robot, they are shaping their brains to respond sexually to a fabricated non-person, rather than to a human being. And we don't think there is not going to be negative consequences in turn how we treat human beings? It is shaping our affections in powerful ways. So that's another reason.

McDowell:

I mean people are even asking about, like those who say, "Well, it's just a robot, it's not real." What about robots that are shaped to look like kids? This is a genuine question. People would say, "Well, people who have these kinds of issues, this is a natural outlet for them." And I'm saying, "No, I think this is stoking the fires and building habits." That not only is the act itself wrong, but it's going to have worse consequences where people eventually are going to have to act this out. So I think for a number of reasons, we should have serious caution, but we also should just be willing to talk about this because this is literally where part of the conversation in our culture has gone.

Del Rosario:

Technology is a great thing and it allows us, you and me, to have this conversation right now. But, so many things that are being used in dysfunctional kinds of ways like this, the lady that I talked about, the doctor I mentioned, actually talked about robots that were AI programmed to act out rape scenes with people. So the degradation and the mental issues, the psychological issues, emotional issues, all this stuff, we are going to need to, as a church, step up into this brave new world of all these different issues.

Del Rosario:

But I think in some way, the sex with a robot thing is related VR [virtual reality], is related to just imagination in your mind, you talked about how do you navigate the question about masturbation. And I think a lot of that comes into play as well, it's starting with lust. How would you speak to that question? I know many Christians are in a variety of places on that, how do you counsel someone to think through that idea?

McDowell:

Yeah, it actually surprised me when I read this how much of difference and debate there is amongst not only Christians, but conservative Christians. Some are saying, "It's always wrong." Some are saying, "It's fine as long as there is not lust." Here is where I land on this. Again, same with sex with a robot idea, is that if there is lust involved in masturbation, it's necessarily wrong because Matthew 5, Jesus rules this out. So that's the easy one.

McDowell:

But then I've had a response, people saying, "Well, it's just a physical process and it feels good. And I'm able to masturbate without there being images of another person and lusting." That's where I say, "Okay, that seems to be a step in the right direction." But is there any reason that a Christian should have concern with this?

McDowell:

And my concern is that, again, I think it's conditioning somebody in a sense to have sex with themselves where sex is designed and sexual pleasure, according to Scripture, to be experienced in the presence of another human being that you're committed to in marriage of the opposite sex. That's God's design for sex.

McDowell:

So, somebody who's experiencing masturbation is focusing on themselves and their individual pleasure, not using the sexual outlet to love another person. And I'm concerned how that starts to become habitual because it's focusing inward on the self pleasure. Now, I did a short YouTube video on this, I think like a three or four minute response saying the same thing and somebody said, "Well, what about food? We don't think food is wrong if it pleases the self." And I said, "Well, food is designed for an individual to enjoy. But is that the design for sex?"

McDowell:

I think sex is designed outward towards another. And there is the pleasure that clearly comes with it and that's part of the blessing from God. But it's meant to be experienced in relationship with another human being. So, I don't want to be somebody who's just throwing shame on somebody, making somebody feel bad and be legalistic. That's the last thing I want. I want this filled with grace and love and understanding. But I think we have to help people think through these issues and say, "What kind of person are we becoming? How is it forming our sexual desires and activities? And is it ultimately in line with who God wants us to be?" And that's why I think it should at least give us some pause and reflection.

Del Rosario:

Yeah, definitely, God has designed sex to have this bond between a man and a woman and that bond is not present in these things that we're discussing and so certainly outside God's design. Now we've talked mostly about sex in this discussion, but the book is also about marriage and love. In discussing that, we also have to consider people who don't land there in marriage but remain single. You talked a little bit about that in the book. How would you counsel pastors who are talking about this with students to not make marriage seem like the end all, of the telos and the goal of this whole thing that love and relationships are present in the life of single people as well. How do we talk about what the Bible says in that regard?

McDowell:

Who is arguably the most relationally fulfilled person who's ever lived? I think we're going to have to say Jesus, right? God in human flesh, never sinned. He wasn't married. And he didn't have sex. What does this tell us? That sex and marriage are not required to have a satisfying, fulfilling, God-honoring life. Now, somebody might say, "Well, that's easy for you to say, you've been married two decades." And I say, "Well, it's actually not easy for me to say that." My point is to point towards Scripture to say what does Jesus teach in Matthew 19, what does Paul teach in 1 Corinthians 7. And I think the scriptural messages is that singleness and marriage are two equal, God-honoring ways of living our lives.

McDowell:

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 7, "Hey, marriage is awesome." But he actually even says, "I wish many of you, if not all of you, were like me." Not quite the glowing endorsement of marriage that's often given from the conservative religious right. He's like, "Actually, there is tough things about marriage and there is benefits to singleness."

McDowell:

My point is, we need to bring back a balance and rather than saying or showing through our actions in the church that singleness is the B, or C, or D, or F, or Z prize, it is a gift to the church and marriage is a gift to the church. So I would start, if a young person is asking questions about this to say, "Let's actually go to Scripture and see how good and beautiful and wonderful singleness can be and marriage." I would start there.

McDowell:

I had a lady who was single when I was printing out the chapter before I published the book, she was in the room when I was printing and just saw and read it. And she told my wife, she goes, "Look, I was in tears because I had never heard a theology of singleness that talked about its goodness and its beauty." She's like, "I've been in the church and I've never heard this." That's a tragedy.

McDowell:

So, we've got to theologically correct that and do a better job. I mean, even Jesus, he redraws family lines. He goes, "No, it's those who are obedient to my father vertically rather than my biological family." So, marriage is important, I would never downplay that, but we need to raise up our emphasis and our focus on singleness, especially because people are less likely to get married now, millennials and Gen Z's, and those who do get married later. Not only theologically but practically we've got to do a better job at this in the church.

Del Rosario:

In the beginning of your book, you talked about how one of the greatest questions that we get from this generation has to do with gender identity and homosexuality. And I will tell you, when I was reading that, I was thinking, "You know what? This is true that wherever I go to speak, even if I'm giving an argument for the existence of God or talking about the problem of evil, when Q&A comes, someone will say, 'How do I relate to my gay friends?'"

Del Rosario:

So how can we help our Christian students, especially in church, begin to engage in a way that is loving and understanding but also is convicted and holds on to biblical convictions in this area?

McDowell:

Not long ago I was visiting a Christian school and I do this role play thing, I'll be an atheist, I'll be Muslim, I'll be pro-choice. Well, I was role playing a pro-same sex marriage position and these are juniors, seniors and high school Christian school. I start off by making an argument for same sex marriage and a girl raises her hand like three minutes into it. She goes, "You know what? I want to defend natural marriage. I don't even have a clue where to start."

McDowell:

And all the students are like, "You got us in three minutes, we don't even know." The first thing with our students is to start talking about, "What is marriage? What does Scripture teach about marriage? How do you make a case for natural marriage without even relying upon the Bible." Like you said earlier, Mikel, that what's biblical is true, what is true is biblical.

McDowell:

So first thing is what gives us confidence to engage people with different worldviews, it's when we understand what we believe and why we believe it. The second thing is we've got to give role models to young people. That's why in the chapter on homosexuality, I framed it within the story of Christopher Yuan, a same sex attracted single man, good friend of mine, who's living out the biblical ethic on sexuality as a single man in a fulfilling way.

McDowell:

We need to give young people models and say, "Look, the story you are hearing from the culture, you are seeing on Netflix, that seems to be ever present, there are people resisting this notion and living out faithfully to what Jesus taught."

McDowell:

And the third thing is just help them find the balance between truth and love. How do we build relationships with people? It's not "us versus them," let's step down from the culture wars. But how do we love people with a different worldview? And a good friend of mine told me about how his daughter in high school befriended a young man who was gay and they would study together, they talked, they just became friends. And this young man was over at their house, "Yes," he goes. He goes, "Hey, young man, I understand you're not a Christian." Like, this is a guy who just calls him out. He goes, "Would you ever think about following Jesus?"

McDowell:

And he goes, "I thought about it." He goes, "I'm not ready to right now. But if I did, it would be because of someone like your daughter." I thought, "Wow." Just loving people, caring for people, being the kind of friend with somebody that we would want them to be with us, that's what our young people need. So a biblical worldview, models of people doing this, and the ability to build relationships with people who see the world differently.

Del Rosario:

Yeah, that's amazing. Sean, you've given us so much in this short time together. I really love the illustration of role playing, the phone thing, with your son. I think I'm going to use that, that's really good.

McDowell:

Do it.

Del Rosario:

If there is one takeaway that was for you that you would take away after completing this study, I know you've done other works on marriage and sexuality, but at this point, what has been your major take away from all your studies in this area?

McDowell:

Oh my gosh. That is such a big question.

Del Rosario:

You can give me two, if you want.

McDowell:

Something that just popped to my mind is the chapter on cohabitation. I started researching a lot on that, and I had read a few studies before, but when I really delved in, the research I came across was really powerful, that basically, if you want to put a potential future marriage in jeopardy, live with somebody before you're married. I knew that the biblical pattern would benefit people and I had heard some studies. When I really drove into this and talked with Glenn Stanton from Focus on the Family, looked at the data, I was like, "Wow, this is even more powerful than I had realized." So that gave me increased confidence to speak out on this issue and make sure young people know that living with someone puts them at a disadvantage.

McDowell:

So here is how I put it, Mikel, think about this, there is nothing that a young person can find out by living with somebody else that they can't find out another way that has any relevance for a successful marriage. Nothing. And second, it will put him at a disadvantage. That was one of the surprises in my research, I just didn't expect that strong going into it.

Del Rosario:

I think that's right, that's right. Well, Sean, thank you so much for joining us once again here on The Table. I hope that you will join us again some other time. I know that you and I will be in contact, so thanks for being on the show.

McDowell:

Thanks for having me. You're a pro at this and a good friend.

Del Rosario:

Thanks, Sean. And we thank you very much for watching and listening to The Table Podcast as well. We hope that you will join us next time on the table. And please do subscribe to the show wherever you're consuming this content, on iTunes or YouTube or wherever you're listening to podcasts. We'll see you next time. God bless.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for listening to The Table Podcast. For more podcasts like this one visit dts.edu/thetable. Dallas Theological Seminary. Teach truth, love well.