Disabilities and the Church

One Body, One Spirit: Disability and Community in the Church by Jason Epps and Paul Pettit

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, welcome to The Table Podcast where we discuss issues of God and culture so that we can show the relevance of theology to everyday life. I'm Bill Hendricks, the executive director for Christian Leadership at the Hendricks Center. I'm so glad that you've joined us today for The Table. And I want to begin by asking you to please use your imagination for a moment. And I want you to imagine that you have become deaf and there's no real way around not being able to hear at all. What does that mean? Well, one thing it means is you wouldn't be able to listen to The Table podcast. You'd have to find some transcript or some other means somehow of accessing it. But now I want you to also imagine that we're not just talking about The Table podcast, imagine you're deaf and what the implications of that would be for you and your church. 

You can't hear the sermon. You can't hear the worship music or the congregation singing. You can't hear the prayers and before and after, and sometimes even during the church gathering, you can't hear what people are saying. You see them smiling, but you don't know what they're saying. You see them asking questions, but you can't hear what they're saying. Just imagine what that would be like to be in that condition. And it turns out that one in five Americans have, in addition to being deaf, other kinds of what are called disabilities. One in five, it's about 55, 60 million people in our culture, many of them in and around and wanting to be part of a church. And so today what we're going to consider in The Table is the church and the community and its relationship to people who have disabilities. 

And we've got two excellent folks to speak to us about that. They've actually put a book together. Jason Epps is a Ph.D resident and fellow in Old Testament studies at Midwestern Baptist Seminary in Kansas City. He lives in Missouri there with his service dog, Virgo, and he has had cerebral palsy his whole life. So he speaks out of this from personal and I mean very personal, historical experience. And I might add, he's also an ardent Kansas City Chiefs fan. And then to my right is Paul Pettit, who is a DTS grad, as is Jason. And he's the director of the career services here at DTS. Formerly worked over the Director of Spiritual Formation. He's also the founder of Dynamic Dads, which has a ministry helping dads do what dads need to do and be who they need to be. Are you a Cowboys fan? 

Paul Pettit: 

I also grew up near Kansas City, so I claim Patrick Mahomes and the Chiefs. 

Bill Hendricks: 

So you guys, no wonder you were so compatible in putting together this book. I don't want to talk about the Kansas City Chiefs. I love them, they're great, but today we're going to talk about One Body, One Spirit: Disability and Community in the Church. Guys, I'm really glad you put this book together. It certainly was an eye-opener for me, and I think it's going to be for many, many people. I hope it will be. Jeff, let me start with you, because your relationship with Paul as I understand it, started when you came to DTS. 

Jason Epps: 

I took Paul in my first semester, I believe, first semester Preaching I. It was one of my first classes that I took, and I had already had the idea of this book percolating in my mind. And when I came into class, Paul basically said, "I've written books. Anybody who has an idea can write a book, come to me with your idea and I'll help you." And I raised my hand. I'm like, "I have an idea. Can we get this done?" And then Paul was like, "This sounds like a really good idea. We can make this work." So all throughout my ThM, which is four years, we were meeting and talking about it, and right during graduation, I remember this very distinctly, he had filled out the proposals, submitted it to Kregel Academic. 

They eventually accepted it and the next year, year and a half, two years, we regularly met on Zoom, had conversations much like this where Paul would interact with what I was wanting to put and said, "Well, what about this exception? What about that exception?" And it was really a refreshing way to do the book because like you said, I live in this world more or less, so I don't think about what a person that is not aware of this would wonder about. To me, it's just second nature. So it was really helpful to have him there, and I just have really appreciated his support going forward with the book and beyond. He's just, through this process, we really grew as this book hopes to do into genuine friendship. I feel like we had a good relationship at DTS, but we didn't really spend a lot of time together. Our friendship really grew as we were writing this book. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, usually when co-authors write a book, they either forge a friendship or they become not friends anymore. But Paul, tell me your side of the story. 

Paul Pettit: 

Yeah, I'll echo that. Jason was in my class and we go through the syllabus and go through the roster, and everyone's here except one, and I see this name Jason Epps. Well, kind of awkward to be late on the first day of school, but we heard this rap on the door and I thought, "Can he not get in or is he in the wrong room?" And two guys go back to open the door and look down and see a power wheelchair. So immediately I think we, "Wow, we're in the preaching lab and there's a stage up here, how's he going to get up on stage?" And then we pull up the podium, the pulpit, and it's way over his head. And immediately I began seeing the whole campus through his eyes and just started to, he knew every door on campus that worked and every door on campus that didn't work. And sometimes- 

Jason Epps: 

I had the door repair guy on speed dial. 

Paul Pettit: 

One time we were down here at the corner and standing and talking near the grass, and the sprinklers came on and he started getting wet. And I jumped back, of course, and I said, "Man, does this happen often?" He says, "Every once in a while." So I took on a new appreciation for what would it be like to go through not only ministry and school and master's degree, but all of life in a power wheelchair. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Yeah. Well, you said in your book you made that offer, "If you have an idea for a book, come to me and I'll work with you." And you said, "Of all the students have come through, only maybe three or four have taken you up on that." 

Paul Pettit: 

Rarely does anyone ever take me up on it. They have ideas for a book, but sometimes I add, "After you've written the first chapter, come and see me." Because I want them to have some skin in the game. And that's when a lot of them drop out. They want to write a book or they have an idea for a book. But you've got to start that first chapter. And Jason mentioned, "I've got a five-step plan for building a friendship with someone who has a disability." And as soon as I heard those words, Bill, I knew we were going to write a book together. I mean, if you hear some student say, "I have a five-step plan." He's thought about it, he's mulled over in his mind, and he even had a rough draft. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, those are the best books, the ones that come out of a life message. I want to get to that five-step plan, but let me back up all the way to, let's define some terms here, because I've already used the term disable. What does that term really mean? You give some definitions in the book. 

Paul Pettit: 

Yeah, I'll go first and then I'll let Jason respond. But it's really anyone, the CDC says one in four, one in five Americans have a disability. Anything that someone wants to be able to do, but can't do. Obviously walking, sometimes speaking, listening, seeing- 

Bill Hendricks: 

Hearing. 

Paul Pettit: 

A lot of those things we take for granted that people have a struggle with and it affects their whole life. But I learned some person-centered language. I used to tell Jason, "Hey, this is for disabled people." And then he would gently say, "No, it's person with a disability." And I would say, "Yeah, yeah, disabled folks." And he would say, "No, no, it's folks that happen to have…" Because what he was saying was the disability doesn't define them wholly as a person. 

Bill Hendricks: 

That's not my identity. 

Paul Pettit: 

Yeah, I'm not a disabled person, I'm a person who also happens to have a disability. I have other things in my life besides my disability. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Jason, do you want to weigh in on that? 

Jason Epps: 

It's a very difficult question to answer because technically how the government defines it is any sort of impairment. Depending on the location in places, even being drunk could be considered a disability, which I don't really consider it. To be honest, Paul really defined it well. Basically I would say that it's anything that limits a person doing what they would want to do when they would normally be expected to do it. So for instance, it would be normal for me being a 31-year-old to be able to go out and rough house, play football, paintball, any of those things. But would it be for a 90-year-old? I pretty much have the same limitations as a 70, 80, 90-year-old. I wouldn't consider that as having a disability. 

So it's anyone who lacks the ability to do what they would normally be able to do within that stage of life. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's not how it's typically defined by the CDC. In fact, that makes the research a bit tricky because they classify anyone who has difficulty walking as having a disability. Well, that includes everyone that's in the 70, 80, 90-year-old range, which logically we would say those people don't have a disability, they've had a full life. So it just makes it very tricky. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, you guys pointed out that there's a social construct in this term as well. And going back to the impairment, we have limitations and so forth, and that's not a problem until it becomes a problem because of the way we're living our lives. Somebody who can't read, I wouldn't call that impairment, but it's a limitation. And then now they're suddenly thrust into a society where if you can't read, that's a real problem and then it becomes classified as a disability. 

Paul Pettit: 

Yeah. And we learned a term during our research, temporarily able-bodied. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Yeah, I love that. 

Paul Pettit: 

I've become fascinated by this term, because if you think about it, each one of us is temporarily able-bodied. In other words, by God's grace, I could get to 90, 95 years old and I probably won't be able to hear very well, I won't be able to see very well. Or I could step out on Live Oak out here and get hit by a car, could have a stroke, could be a military person and get injured. So we're all by God's grace temporarily able-bodied. And what we gain from that is seeing people as two categories, "Oh, I'm able-bodied, I'm fine, I'm perfect. Those folks, they're disabled. I'm here to help them." Sort of a patronizing look. But if we think in terms of, "Well, thank you, Lord, I can get up today and move. I can hear, I can see, I can smell, I can taste, I can think." We see that we're all temporarily able-bodied and we're just one step away from moving over to that category that we like to call disabled. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Yeah. Well, it has vast social implications. Jeff, you talk in the section of the book, from your experience, you talked about in group settings feeling a sense of exclusion and to the point where after a while you kind of wondered, "Maybe it would be better if I wasn't even here." And then the question is, you see other people making contributions and you're like, "Yeah, but I feel like I can't contribute." Tell us about that. 

Jason Epps: 

Yeah, so it's the thing that nobody really thinks about. When people think about disability ministry, they mainly just think about physical access, which is important. It's important to think about physical access, but more so it's the social aspect, because I could be in a room of 20, 50 people and feel isolated and alone. Everybody could be talking around me, but I can not be included in the conversation. And it's just like you said, it makes me feel invisible. It makes me wonder why I'm even here. There was several times where my church at the time was preparing a garage fundraiser, and they said, "Go sit over there in the corner, you're in the way." Or when I was at a college group, again, they would say, "You're in the way." And I would go far away from everyone else so they couldn't accuse me of being in the way anymore. But then that kind of made me feel like, "Why am I even here? Do people wonder if I'm… Is it even worthwhile for me to be here? Do people even care?" 

It's kind of like that scene in It's a Wonderful Life where the main character, Jim Bailey is wondering and wrestling with his own sense of self-worth and what good have I done? Yeah, it's basically like that. It's because of that. And this is coupled with a lot of times Christian groups would say things like, "Oh, we love you. We want you to be here." But their actions don't connect with that. So there's really this sort of sense of cognitive dissonance between what they're saying and how they're acting, which really makes you wonder do they even care or are they just saying that? So you become really skeptical of people, especially Christian people, because they know the right thing to say, but they don't actually think it, but they don't want to say what's wrong because they know that that's wrong. So it's a Catch 22 for them sometimes. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, the things you've just said, I mean, those are some profound spiritual categories in terms of feeling like you belong, you're wanted, it's a good thing you're here. And so I want to just speak to you, listeners, I want you to just sort of ask yourself this question, does my church welcome people with disabilities? And if your church leader, I would particularly urge you to ask yourself that question, does my church welcome people with disabilities? And you guys came across some pretty interesting research on that. What did some research was done? What did the pastors and church leaders say? 

Paul Pettit: 

Well, I think most of them feel like they are. They would say, "Oh, we're very welcoming." But there's a couple of barriers. One is the physical barriers. So the parking lot, the classrooms, the hallways. 

Bill Hendricks: 

The stairs. 

Paul Pettit: 

Jason tells a story about traveling with the Moody Men's Choir and almost all the old church choir lofts, he'll tell the story later, because it's pretty amusing. But physical barriers, that's kind of step one. But Jason's also taught me and schooled me on this idea that it's not just physical barriers alone. In other words, we could spend millions and millions of dollars and have the perfect physical church, but it's as we talk about barriers or social barriers and even the pride of looking down our nose at someone, "Hey, could that person give announcements?" "Yeah, sure. Well, I don't know. They're not beautiful. Or it might take a little longer. We don't want to do that." Or, "Could this person speak and preach or teach on a Sunday morning?" "Well, what if there's visitors or what if they're…" I mean, in other words, we're looking at them as second-class citizens, or we're looking at them as well, what if they mess up? Or what if they make a big mistake? Or what if it takes longer? As if taking longer during a worship services a real ill. 

Wouldn't it be healthy to see all of God's creation, all of God's people, because people with disabilities certainly carry the Imago Dei. And there's even some controversy now, Bill, because people are saying, there's a professor at a Northeast university that says, "Well, we're not sure if people with disabilities are fully human." Fully human, unbelievable. And even some of the healing ministries, what they imply is, "Well, God doesn't see you this way." Or, "Don't worry in heaven you'll be whole." As if they're saying, "You're not fully human because since you have this disability, we need to pray over you or pray for a miracle that you'll be like us, that you'll be also fully human." So it's really controversial because we need to double-check our own motives and double-check our friendships and say, "Do I have a lot of friends and church members that are struggling with disabilities? If not, why not?" 

Bill Hendricks: 

Wow. And you get into it in the book, but even Paul prayed that he had what was called a thorn in the flesh. He described it in 2 Corinthians, and he prayed three times for God to take it away, and God didn't take it away. 

Paul Pettit: 

And he said, "My grace will be sufficient for you." So we don't hold that all people with disabilities should be healed immediately somehow. So that they'll become normal or fully human. People with disabilities are already fully human, and God's sometimes giving us grace to get through these disabilities and live with them. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Yeah. Yeah, Jason, in the book you give a list of 10 sort of social barriers that we run into. If you ask people and they will respond, "Well, I might do or say something offensive, I don't want to hurt this person." Or, "I don't want to deal with a disabled person, because I fear getting involved may begin to dominate my time and schedule and work-life balance." "We would build a friendship with a person with a disability, but we're already heavily involved in another ministry at our fellowship." And you make this observation of those social barriers, nine out of 10 of them are ultimately based in fear. Tell us more about that fear piece. 

Jason Epps: 

In fact, well, I just want to mention that a lot of those potential objections came from Paul's conversation. So he really helped keep the book grounded. And in fact, one of the original titles that we were floating for the book was Getting Past Uncomfortable, because of this fear aspect, because there was so much uncertainty and people didn't want to offend, because we live in a hyper-sensitive society now. For instance, I prefer if people use person first language like Paul mentioned, but it doesn't bother me when somebody doesn't use it because I'd much rather they engage with me than not. So it's much better that you do make a mistake. 

It's like learning a language. Any linguist, practical Bible translation for Wycliffe will tell you, "You need to get out there, you need to be involved. You need to make mistakes. If you're afraid and just preventing yourself from being perfect, then nothing will ever get done." You will make mistakes. You will make a fool of yourself. And that'll be a funny story that you'll tell your students in a mission class that you meant to say goodbye to someone, but in reality, what you said was, "Follow me." And you're like, "Why are you in my living room?" And they're like, "You told me to follow you." "No, I meant to say goodbye." And they're like, "Ha, ha, ha." And they leave true story of one of my professors in Moody. But it's that kind of principle. You have to be willing to get past the fear, to just do it. 

And a lot of Paul's objections that he brought up in the book, and maybe he can mention this, but a lot of it can be resolved just by simply stating your concerns to the person, actually engaging in them, treating them like a real person, having a regular conversation, being honest about your own limitations. Like, "Hey, I can't take you to church every week. I'd be willing to do it for you this time." And just being upfront about it rather than just bottling it all up and then all of a sudden you explode or something happens and they don't know why. 

Paul Pettit: 

Yeah, good answer. I remember talking with Jason about loading him up into a van, and I remember thinking, "I don't want to touch you in the wrong way or break something or hold you incorrectly." And he looked at me and said, "Well, you might just say, hey, what's the best way to help me get in the van?" I thought, "Yeah, yeah, that's a good answer." 

Bill Hendricks: 

That makes sense. 

Paul Pettit: 

Or I remember thinking, "Hey, I can't walk back to Washington Hall every day. Am I going to get stuck walking back to Washington Hall every day and us having this long theological chat?" And he said, "No, just look at me and say, 'Hey, Pettit, I can do this occasionally, but I'm not going to be able to walk back like this every day.'" And all of his answers were just so natural and authentic and organic that helped me see- 

Bill Hendricks: 

He's a person. 

Paul Pettit: 

Yeah, he's fully human, he's got a great sense of humor, and I don't have to be the disability expert or I don't have to have all the answers. And a lot of these were just unfounded fears that I had. I said, "Well, what if there's some kind of medical emergency and it's just me and you? I don't know what to do." And he said, "Well, we might call 911." All of his answers were top-notch. And I remember thinking, "Yeah, why am I so afraid that I'm going to either offend or break something?" He said, "That doesn't usually happen." 

Bill Hendricks: 

So you think most of that fear is sort of false or baseless? 

Paul Pettit: 

Yeah. I mean, Jason has told me that he would rather have someone chat with him and ask questions. Tell him about how little kids approach you sometimes in your chair, Jason. 

Jason Epps: 

Oh yeah, yeah, I love this. They come straight up to me and say, "What's wrong with you? 

Paul Pettit: 

Little kids. 

Jason Epps: 

The most un-PC way possible. And I just love it because they're asking the question that everybody's wondering. And again, it doesn't bother me because it's a huge part of my life. In fact, it bothers me when people avoid it because while I'm still a person, as we've already covered, my disability, I'm bound to my disability. Like it or not, it prevents me from doing the things that I would want to do. And it's not an insurmountable challenge. It's just we need to plan ahead. We need to make sure there's a ramp there. I maybe need to bring my manual wheelchair. 

It's just you can't just do things spur of the moment like is very often the case in undergraduate when you're in the sports dorm such as Dryer. Unfortunately, I wasn't in Culby where the students are a little bit more reasonable. If you don't get the joke. I was in Dryer at Moody and Paul was in Culby. The two dorms have sort of a friendly rivalry and newsflash, most of my friends were in Culby, by the way. Culby guys were much more calm and reasonable. The Dryer guys were the jocks, unfortunately. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, one of the things I took away from the presentation that you give here is there's, to my way of thinking, three sort of levels of, call it engagement, that churches can have with people with disabilities. One would be ministry to people with disabilities and then ministry with people with disabilities, and then ministry by people with disabilities. Let's take those in turn. First of all, ministry to people with disabilities. I'm familiar with several churches that have, for instance, a whole program for special needs kids as a case in point. And I sort of see that as a ministry to these children that are somewhere on the spectrum or whatever. 

Paul Pettit: 

Yeah. 

Jason Epps: 

You're absolutely right, and that's the vast majority of disability ministries. There's a major problem with that though. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Yeah, go ahead. 

Jason Epps: 

Because well, not only does it silo them and separate them like they have the plague and they're unclean, but it kind of lumps everybody with a disability together, which doesn't necessarily work. Let me give you an example. I have cerebral palsy. I have a friend of mine that has the same disability I do, but can walk. Walks with a limp, still has limitations. I have another friend, again, same disability, cerebral palsy, but is bound to a wheelchair like I am, but can't talk without a machine. So not only is it not good to isolate them away, but it's not even good practically to shove everybody with a disability in. And in fact, the vast majority of people with disabilities in general that most programs attract are people with mental disabilities that can't communicate. I am, as you can obviously tell, I am pretty smart. I graduated with my ThM from Dallas Theological Seminary. They don't just hand those out. 

Bill Hendricks: 

No. 

Jason Epps: 

I took Dan Wallace, which I didn't, that was like another degree of sanctification there. But I am completely bored when I'm in disability ministries because there's nobody to talk to. And worse, you get the feeling that the people are there only helping in the ministry because they want to check a Christian box because outside the ministry they don't notice you, they don't help you. In fact, I remember having this conversation with multiple churches and they're like, "Well, if you want to have friendship, you need to join our disability ministry and we'll have designated workers." And I'm like, "Why can't I just have friendship with the people generally in the church? I shouldn't to join them to just feel welcome." Is it just me? That sounds bad. 

So that is the vast majority of disability ministry, and it's like in general, I just don't think it does it well. And while we're on the side topic, personally, I don't really like the idea of siloing all these different ministries. You've got a ministry for young adults, you've got a ministry for preteens, you've got a ministry for college. It silos and separates the church and it prevents people from intermingling, sharing ideas. And it just creates this idea that the church is just fragmented and not a body at all. 

Bill Hendricks: 

So it's a case of probably a ministry of compassion, but with some unintended consequences that sort of flow out of it. Did you want to add to- 

Paul Pettit: 

Sometimes with ministry too, it feels like I'm the one doing the ministry and they're the ones receiving. But what I found with Jason is I learned so much more and gain so much more in our friendship than he did. He got the short end of the stick with me, but for me to build a friendship with him was so enriching and I began to learn, again, to see through his eyes. I'm down here watching a Dallas area, rapid transit come by, and I'm thinking, "How would I do that if I was Jason?" And he says, "Oh, sometimes they'll say that's a stop, but you'll learn it's not a stop." 

Or he'll go to a stadium and they'll say, "Oh, there's an elevator." But the elevator doesn't work or there isn't an elevator. So ministry with is so much more powerful because you learn from the person that's struggling with a disability so much. There were times when I would get frustrated with the book, I would say, "This is ridiculous, and what are they waiting on? And how come they didn't email back?" And he was so calm and patient because he lives with this. He would say, "Oh, I find that it usually works out." So I'm the one that's frustrated and upset, and he's the one that's- 

Bill Hendricks: 

You're learning from him. 

Paul Pettit: 

He's the one that's saying, "Oh, I've been through these kinds of situations before." 

Jason Epps: 

Hopefully these terms are a piece of cake compared to other things 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, Jason, you gave a great illustration it seems to me in the book about ministry with a person with this disability in that you used to go on, I don't want to say mission trips, but they were sort of these outreach volunteer trips to- 

Jason Epps: 

Service trips. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Yeah, to paint houses or whatever, and they figured out, "Hey, Jason really is a bright teacher. We need to have him do the devotionals." And so you do the devotional part. 

Jason Epps: 

Yeah. And that was really a wonderful time because that allowed me to put a lot of my training to use. The sad part, the dark side of that was afterwards because I still wanted to do something. I wanted to help out. So they had me this one time paint a pillar, spend a whole lot of effort, exhaust myself, and after I was done, another person came by and completed the whole thing. And it made me wonder, why was I even doing that? And this kind of segues into another side topic that I wish the church would do a better job at utilizing people's spiritual gifts. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, that's where I was going. Yeah, go ahead. 

Jason Epps: 

In my experience, churches have a ton of programs for people to identify their spiritual gifts. They have all these inventories that you could take and classes that explain the inventories and yada, yada, yada. But where it falls off is after the class, unless your spiritual gift is helping with children, you're off the creek without a paddle. And how dare you identify that your spiritual gift is teaching. I've lived with the Lord 20, 30 years. I'm going to school to teach Bible and I better be darn sure my spiritual gift is teaching. But especially with teaching, churches have kind of a pay your dues mentality of you have to show that you are dedicated to the church and how is that? The entry level service of physically cleaning up, setting things up, things of that nature, which I can't do so I don't get noticed. So I don't get these opportunities because there's no really track and mentorship for people to plug in. 

I don't expect to be given the biggest Sunday school class, but at least put me on a trajectory where I'm actually using my gift instead of just… And I've seen this with people who are able-bodied as well. They do random service that isn't connected to their gift at all, and they just stumble into eventually using their gift. That is not utilizing to the most effective manner, the people that God has given us. There needs to be more of a discipleship where you're slowly given more responsibility to do what your spiritual gift is connected to. 

Bill Hendricks: 

That's absolutely correct. And Paul will know, Jason, that my sort of specialization is this whole area of giftedness. And so I'm in this world every day, and the issue that's really at stake here is how has God gifted and by that gifting, therefore called a person to contribute? And it might help, just as you said earlier in working with a person with disabilities, Paul. You might just ask them, "How can I get you in the car? How would you suggest I get you in the car?" When it comes to ministry by people with disabilities? We might ask the person, "Well, what would you like to do? What do you feel called to do? What do you feel your strengths are? How has God gifted you?" And we might be amazed at what the person really feels that and has evidence that God has gifted them to the task to do. And then it becomes a matter of, are we putting a barrier in the way that precludes them from doing that? 

Jason Epps: 

What's slightly better than that, and I agree with you 100%, just a minor tweak. What's better than asking them, "What do you feel like to do?" Is after you've developed this genuine friendship, you begin to notice what their abilities might be. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Absolutely. You'll see it. 

Jason Epps: 

Because if they've spent most of their life isolated, they may have no idea. This kind of is a modified version of step four almost, where instead of asking the person, what activities would you like to do, you get the buy-in from the other members of the group. In fact, this might be a good idea to have a spiritual gifting and working in the church side of the five steps. Maybe that could be our sequel, Paul. 

Bill Hendricks: 

There you go. 

Paul Pettit: 

I had a pastor tell me recently he wanted a church full of people that had the spiritual gift of putting away chairs. But it does happen. You can ask What have you done in the past that's worked well, because oftentimes the track record is there, but we sometimes shy away from looking at people with disabilities of even having a spiritual gift. 

Bill Hendricks: 

That's the problem. 

Paul Pettit: 

We're always like, "Oh, they're here to be taken care of, or they're here for me to minister to them." And rarely do we say, "How could they contribute?" Because Jesus certainly slowed down, got to know them, spent time with them, God's heart, Father God's heart is for the hurting, for the suffering. And so we're excluding a whole group of people by overlooking them and thinking, "Well, what could they offer?" I love that story of Bartimaeus. There's such a humor. There's such an irony. When the crowd walks by him, they just think, "Be quiet. Bartimaeus, quit shouting out. What's your problem? We're going to install the king here. We're on the way. I'm going to be in the right and the left." 

But then Jesus says, "Hey, there's Bartimaeus. Bring him to me." And then the crowd immediately changes, the fickleness of a crowd. They say, "Oh yeah, we were just getting ready to do that, Jesus. Yeah, Bartimaeus, he's asking for you. You better go now." So the whole crowd saw Bartimaeus as just a pity, just a hindrance. But Jesus saw him as fully human And knew that he was going to be able to contribute to the kingdom work. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, when I hear that, I think about in the early church, meaning the first three or 400 years of the church, we actually have evidence from that time that they had what was called the Order of the Widows. And basically what it was was these women who'd lost, they were elderly and they'd lost their husbands. And typically we think of widows is in James, you get a true religion is take care of the orphans and the widows, they're charity cases. What the church did was said, "Well, wait a minute. We need to feed them and so forth. But these women have a lot of maturity and a lot to offer." 

And they actually created an order in which these women could serve out of their giftedness, particularly the material needs to the sick and the shut-ins and so forth. And they actually had a special place of honor that they sat in the church, the church recognizing, "We esteem you. You've got something to offer here." And we need to do that with all the members of the body of Christ according to 1 Corinthians 12, a couple of times here in the last few minutes, you mentioned the five-step plan of building a friendship, first of all, a relationship and then a friendship. So in the time we have left, can you briefly walk us through that five-step plan? Because I think it's so valuable. 

Jason Epps: 

Yeah. So the first step is notice. Second step, engage. Third step, research. Fourth step, incorporate. Fifth step, advocate. So notice, engage, research, incorporate, advocate. Notice, engage research, incorporate, advocate. So with the notice that you can tell I'm a DTS graduate, repetition, repetition, repetition. Thanks for grounding that into my brain, Paul. 

Paul Pettit: 

Repetition. 

Jason Epps: 

Yes. So with notice, you're actually noticing your surrounding. Noticing if somebody with a disability might be there, are they separated from everybody else? Are they at a table by themselves? Just generally observing them? What difficulties might they have? Would you have to be a little bit more patient with them as they talk because they have to go through a talking box? Things of that nature. With the engaged step, you're actually the key part of that step is to ask questions. First and foremost, ask them if they're sitting alone, "Can I sit down with you? What do you like? What do you dislike?" Learning them as a person. One of the first ones should be, "What is your disability? How does it affect you?" Most people are afraid to ask that, but I was alluding to before, people with disabilities actually love to talk about their disability because nobody wants to hear them talk about their disability. 

In fact, when they talk about their day, people think they're just complaining when in reality they're just talking about their day. It's kind of a sort of quasi double standard there, if you ask me. Then with research, the person that is now the handler as we call in the book, goes to and observes the places where the asset, the person with a disability can go. And they either notice as they're going working throughout their day, or they proactively think, "Hey, I know Jason likes to attend classical musicals. I know there's a musical going on, but let me check to make sure the whole path and everything is accessible." And the more work the handler puts in, the more psychological impact. 

Because one of the things that we're trying to do with the five-step plan is undo the psychological damage that's been done for years of thinking of to the asset, the person with a disability, thinking that they're worthless, pointless, helpless, all those things that I mentioned before. And then after the research step comes the incorporated step where the handler goes to the larger group and says, "Hey, Jason would really like to go to a musical with us. Do we want to do that?" And hopefully they would get group buy-in. And then the handler would come to the person with the disability, the asset, and say, "Hey, we would love as a group to go to this musical event. I know that you can do it, because I've checked this box." And going through all that. 

And that is really impactful for two reasons. One, if it's done the other way, the way it's normally done, where a well-meaning person says, "Hey," to the person with a disability, "Do you have any suggestions?" Oftentimes either A, we don't have any idea because we're so isolated, or B, even if we have an idea, we feel like we would be limiting everybody's fun and they would just be doing it to check a box. This is a prime example with when I was at Moody, when they were having a three-hour game extravaganza right before finals. Don't ask me why. These are college guys, I don't understand that. But in the midst of the three-hour game extravaganza and the RA, well-meaning as he was, gathered everybody up to do a game that I could do, and in the middle of the game somebody said, "When is this going to be over so we could get to what we want to do?" 

Bill Hendricks: 

Wow. 

Jason Epps: 

Well, that just shows me they were just doing it to check a Christian box. I don't expect every activity to be accessible. That's not the goal here. But the goal is for it to occur regularly, because if it occurs regularly, it means the people actually want to do it. Because if it doesn't occur regularly, then you are just doing it to make yourself feel good. And then finally, with the advocate step, the handler actually notices what the person with a disability might need. They might form a bridge and conversations to make sure they're not excluded. They may stand up to make sure that the accessible entrance to the auditorium isn't blocked off by some prop in a stage production. True story. 

But ultimately, what really will result in this would be a genuine friendship where somebody could say, "Hey, Jason, do you want to go to the art museum?" Instead of thinking of the list of all the things that needs to be there, I could just say like an average person, "Sure." And I could go and I would go, and again, true story, even if going to an art museum isn't what I, even if I don't enjoy art museums, but I went anyway. Why? Because I wanted to have that time with my friend. And a minor note that I want to mention is a lot of churches think, make the big event accessible. "We want to make the retreat accessible." Well, if you've not been faithful in the little things that Jesus puts it, if you're not showing that they're welcoming and caring to them on a weekly basis, the person with a disability won't be willing to go to the bigger events, because why would they if you haven't proven yourself faithful? 

I went to when I was an undergrad, they regularly told me to move out of the way, said that I was a bother. But they also said, "Oh, we want you to come to the retreat." And I thought to myself, "Well, that would be a ton of work because I would've to coordinate with my personal caregiver." I thought to myself, All this extra work that they won't treat me the same. See? And what I've discovered is if I put in all the work to establish an event that I can do, if I try and set up a Bible study, nobody comes. True story. Because they just view it as one other thing. 

But if it's offered to the person with a disability, and if you've made it clear that you've taken everything into consideration, they'll say yes immediately. You want to know why? Because they have nothing else to do. Their only alternative is to just sit in their dorm room, pore over Greek paradigms for the 40th time, banging their head against the wall, wanting to have some sort of fun, and then by the Moody donors asking for money for the general scholarship fund when you're- Again, true story. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, this has been a most eye-opening conversation, guys. Our time has gone, but I want to thank you, Paul. I want to thank you, Jason, from speaking from your own life experience here and being a part of The Table today. 

Paul Pettit: 

Thanks, Bill. It's been great. 

Jason Epps: 

Yeah, it's been very enjoyable. Hope it was helpful. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Oh, it's very helpful. And I think you, as a listener like me, you've heard a lot of things here today. They're very challenging. And to think about the churches that we're in and how, I'll at least use the word accommodating, sensitive, really desirous to include folks who are struggling with limitations. The truth is we're all limited in some way, shape, or form, and will become increasingly so as was pointed out, the older we get. So this is a very immediate relevant matter that I hope you will take to heart. And I hope you join us again on The Table podcast. If you've enjoyed this program, give us a rating on your favorite podcast service. Tell your friends about us, because we'd love to see you back for The Table where we discuss issues of God and culture in order to show the relevance of theology to everyday life. Good to be with you. Thank you.