Diverse Views on Multicultural Conversations

This podcast is a second part of a conversation that we began with a previous episode where we took a look at perspectives from The Hendricks Center, talking mostly about perspectives from our white brothers and sisters on the topic of race and multiculturalism. I was on the show, too, so I got to be kind of the bridge between that conversation and this one. So, we encourage you to take a look at that conversation as well.

Well, today we have three guests in the studio to talk about diverse perspectives on these difficult conversations. Our first guest in the studio is Elijah Misigaro. He's actually somebody you see here in front of the camera, but normally he's behind the camera in the control room helping as the senior video producer here at DTS, and he's also the co-host of a show called We Talk Different. Thanks for being here.

Elijah?

Sam?

So besides for three years, I've actually lived here in the States my whole life. So, I'm actually what people call an ABC, which stands for American-born Chinese. So – but mixed culture. I go to a Chinese church here just north of Dallas in Plano, and first- and second-generation Chinese Christians. So, kind of a mixture. So, that's kind of the background that I come from, yeah.

So, I'm hearing these first- and second-generation kinds of elements in our stories and also the whole immigrant kind of thing as well.

So, talk a little bit about what ethnic diversity looks like within your own community, 'cause there's diversity within our communities, too.

So, that – there's that racial diversity. There's a cultural diversity that really just – that I think sometimes people aren't very familiar with on. But yeah.

Elijah?

So, there were a lot of overlaps and shared experiences. But there's a lot of diversity in East African culture and African culture as a whole. And I think sometimes there's this notion that anything Sub-Saharan African is very similar, but there's a wide variety of differences.

How about you, Sam?

So, again, just a lot of diversity even though all of us who identify maybe as being Chinese, they're still a layer underneath that that many times often people don't know; they just see it as being Chinese.

And then again, the second generation growing up here in the States but being Chinese. Like when I grew up, before I went to school, I only spoke Chinese at home. So, me and all the kids at my church, we had to go to ESL first, even though we grew up in America, because we just didn't know how to speak English until we started going to school.

So, just little things like that, and just culturally again at home with our parents where everything is in Chinese, and then going out and all your friends are American, and you kinda again – this 1.5 gen, this little pull-and-tug between which culture growing up. Yeah. So, that's kind of where I came from.

Let's start with you, Elijah.

And the work to actually move the needle requires a lot more longevity than I anticipated. And that comes with its own frustration; that comes with its own – yeah, just hurt and pain at the same time, but I think maybe coming in, I was just like, "You know what? I think I have an understanding of the depth of the problem. I want to go in and try to move the needle as fast as possible, as much as possible."

And realizing that the work to unravel the layers of historical biases, people's cultural understanding and their own racial identity awareness is not something that can happen overnight or even within my time working with The Hendricks Center.

Nancy?

And then just in that kind of understanding that I had, there were places for me to be able to develop and grow and that in that understanding that other people's experiences, even though there was a shared experience between my husband and myself, that really we are affected by different things differently – because of things like the color of my skin and the color of his skin.

And then also just connecting to second- and third- and fourth-generation Hispanics and understanding that their experience in this country is very different. And so, you end up having conversations within the Hispanic community about what defines you in your, for me, Mexicanness – right? – and that is connected to things like language and how inculturated you are with your ethnic background.

And so, all of those things really become part of the things that for you and that go, "Okay, I actually have to learn from your experience, which is different from mine." So, I think where I've seen the growth is just seeing how understanding how colorism works in the United States, which is present in Mexico, but really different as well in some respects and just learning the sensitivity that goes with having deep relationships.

And I don't think you get much deeper than a marriage relationship and to share those burdens with someone. That means that I can't step away from his burdens. And so, that's really grown me to see where I just – there were areas that I just had blind spots just from my husband's experience and vice versa that he has to learn from mine.

But Sam?

And just realizing also a lot of in my cultural classes and talking to people just little things I didn't even know about myself that were part of my culture that I just thought was normal. And like one thing I'll just share is my wife's an international student, and I work a lot with the DTS Chinese program, which is mainly international students.

And even though they're all Chinese, one thing I realized is just how hard it is for them to come here and do their studies in English, which isn't their first language. Because even though I'm Chinese, I grew up speaking English because I grew up here; so, it wasn't ever really a challenge for me. But I speak Mandarin, and I just think to myself, "What if I had to write papers and read theology books in Mandarin?" I think I could do it, but it would be so much harder, and it would probably take me ten times longer.

So, it helped me kind of identify, "Oh, my wife is in the same class as me, but what she's doing is actually way more impressive, or my other Chinese friends are doing this," and understanding them, just what they're going through. And just imagine trying to learn Greek in a language that you're – in English, right? Like you're not only learning a new language, but using a language you don't know to learn that language.

And just little things like that help me realize, "Okay, I need to be more sensitive, be more loving as a TA, be able to show more grace in different situations. Just little things like that that really helps you realize, oh, everyone has different struggles; everyone has different experiences because everyone has such a diverse background of where they come from.

And just understanding that and not saying, "Well, we're Chinese; you're not. So, therefore, we're all on this side; you're all on this side," but realizing even in this context, there is so much diversity as well.

And the mom is like, "Chinese-American." [Laughs]

Well, Elijah, let me get a little bit more specific with you in terms of the African-American side of the conversation and your time with us here. What have you seen as kind of the major barriers to moving that needle to the next point, as you say, here on campus so that we've done?

So – but to answer your question, I think what can help move the needle forward, I think so often in this conversation on diversity and racism, especially in Christian evangelical circles is it is almost a 101 conversation. We are constantly going back to introducing or talking about talking about race. How do we present or talk about diversity?

And at some point, we have to dive in deeper because from a historical aspect, there are so many – whether it is systems of government, systems of politics, systems of the church, systems of education that have been so infiltrated with bias and racism historically in this country, that to just talk about race as if we just love each other, everything's going to be fixed. To me, I think that that does a disservice and almost shows someone's understanding of the problem. Because if loving each other is your solution, then I would question what you really think the problem is.

So, I would encourage people to continue to have the conversation, have it often, and be uncomfortable, continue to be challenged, and allow yourself to be moved and changed and lament with others, and then come back to the table and do it all over again.

As somebody who's married, it would be naive of me to think that I had a conversation with my wife on love. Like I told her I love her, and then that should be sufficient because on the marriage day I said, "I love you." You know? But it is a constant coming back and showing with my actions the depth and the way in which I love her. And I think that can help us grow deeper, and I would encourage others to do the same, even in this conversation, as a way to move forward.

And so, I know like for me, a lot of the 101 kinds of discussions, while it might be frustrating for people who have been in the conversation for a while, were very helpful for me.

And so, unpack a little bit what you meant when you said, "I'm not so sure you know what the problem is."

And I think that there are so many deep elements that, like I said, have infiltrated the Church, I mean the Church's involvement with – whether it's slavery, segregation. Even now I think the silence with a lot of high-profile cultural events that are happening still continue to wound African-Americans and people of color in this country. And we have to constantly be asking ourselves, "What can we be doing to begin to dismantle systems of oppression that are continuing to show themselves even today”.

A clear example is education. And I think in the '50s I think Brown vs. Board of Education was passed and integration was able to happen between people of color and white people. But now you read sociologists and educators, and they'll still say that now – I mean decades after the bill was passed where people were allowed to go to school together, there is still such a divide – almost as close to if not to the same rate as the '50s now where there is a segregation in the education system.

So, you start thinking about what we say vs. the reality of the culture that we live in and how do our actions continue to perpetuate a cycle or a system that's continuing to divide us.

I have a question for you about the honor-shame thing we talked about before the podcast and how that plays into having difficult conversations about race.

And the main thing for me is understanding why different people value certain things, and whether it's – it's whether – why it's not right or wrong or but just different.

For instance, I'll give you an example. I just realized this recently, but in our culture today, let's say you're gonna have a birthday party or you're gonna have an anniversary celebration or something; you want to invite a bunch of friends. What do we do now? Usually either you create a Facebook group – right? – and invite all your friends. If it's a little bit more fancy, you may make a good Evite and send it out. Right?

So, again, my whole thing is it's not really about right and wrong, but just learning to see how people value different things. Instead of judging them by saying, "Well, this way is the correct way; your way is wrong," just saying, "Oh, I understand why you do things this way." Even if I'm not going to do it the same way as you, at least I know why so we can kind of how a conversation. I can – we can start having conversations about that.

And for me, I realize that, too, because I realize I'm very Western minded growing up here. And for instance, I know we're gonna talk about this later, but my wife is – she grew up in Indonesia. So, again, a lot of different – just little things you realize that again you have to kind of just understand each other, take the time. Sometimes it's a struggle. It's not always about, "I don't want to make mistakes," but when you make mistakes, being able to have conversations with them.

I really like what Elijah said about diversity isn't just about, "Okay, I got it, now I'm done." It's a process. You keep talking to people. You keep meeting people. You learn from what you've done. And if you think you're there, it shows that you're really not there, because no matter where you are, you have more and more to learn.

Nancy?

And it takes time – right? – to say like, "No, the way that my culture works and for me to understand that you actually want me present is to get a personal invitation from you." And a really good friend will actually stick it out – right? – to actually go through that process.

I think also part of it has to do with just sometimes we – I'll talk about spectrums of assimilation and cultural identity. Right? And so, I think part of it has to do with understanding that people fall in very different places. Right? So, you can be high identity and high assimilation and low identity and low assimilation, all sorts of things in between. And to understand really takes time, and it takes relationship, and it takes having those conversations over and over and understanding that there is no homogeneous experience. Right? There is not one experience.

Part of what creates more difficulties, I think, especially – at least in Hispanic circles – has to do with where people are gonna fall – the farther you get from the immigrant experience. Right? So, it took me awhile to realize I, in some ways, connect to first-generation Mexican immigrants more than I do sometimes to Hispanics that are second-, third-, fourth-generation. In part that's because they sometimes will fall in a different place in the spectrum of assimilation and identity. And that also, just within the community, can create differences.

On campus, part of the thing is representation. Right? Hispanics are not highly represented in higher education, much less at the graduate level. And so, sometimes our – kind of our issues are the things that we're struggling with tend to be overseen or overlooked. And it's not by bad intentions; it's just sometimes there's not enough of us. You know?

But that of where do I fit, how do I – when I'm in my family culture, we're speaking in Spanish, we're eating tamales, we're doing all these things, and then I go into a different family culture – for me anyway. Right?

And I remember being a little girl and asking my mother, "What do white people eat?" Right? Because I grew up eating tacos and enchiladas and all of those things because my mother kind of – you know, she bent towards my father's tastes. And I just remember – like I'm still kind of in awe of casseroles, because it's just like the most foreign thing to me, and I think they're exciting, and I get really happy when people make a casserole because it's just completely – it actually helps me connect to a part of my culture that I'm not super familiar with.

But the reality for me, anyway, is that I – the way I put it is I wear my mother's privilege on my skin, and the fact that I learned English at such a young age that, for the most part, unless I'm pretty nervous, I can – I don't have an accent, that those things allow me to navigate the world, and I can actually pick and choose, whereas the further up you go in my family scale – right? – my sister is a little darker than me, and she has an accent, and my brother even more.

And that experience, even though we're all biracial, we get access to different things, and we are privileged to different things because of the way the world sees us and how much we can "pass," if you will, or not. So, it's really complicated, and it becomes a wrestling with identity. Right? So, I had to come to a place where I said, "I get to own my Mexicanness, even if other people don't see it. And for Hispanics, a lot of that is just connected to the stereotype that there is a Mexican look. Right?

So, I will still go into conversations where I still hear people say, well, I look like a Mexican. And for people who have grown up in Mexico, there's a cringing that comes behind that that goes, "That seems to betray a lack of understanding even within our own experience." Because you go to Mexico, and there is not a Mexican look. So, that complicates the conversation, and that's a struggle that I think every Hispanic-American has to kind of navigate.

Share a little bit about what lessons have come out of that relationship with your spouse. I'll start with Elijah.

But I think one of the things that is very illuminating is that we can't – we have to intentionally have conversations similar to what we're having right now. I think just our proximity and the fact that we're married doesn't absolve any sort of racial bias, doesn't absolve any sort of lack of understanding when it comes to our diverse experiences.

And example I like to use is as a male growing up here – in America, as a male, I have been socialized as a male, and I bring all of that into our marriage. So, any time I mansplain, she lets me know. You know like? And I do that. And I don't intentionally try to do that, but there is patriarchal elements of my upbringing and my understanding of life that I bring into the marriage that because she lovingly walks with me on it, we begin to kind of tear down some of those sexist ideas or anything like that.

And I said the same thing with race even in our marriage. There are so many elements that she's never had to wrestle with or perspectives that she's never had to view. And a way of loving her and us growing together is to have intentional conversations when she steps in it, or when we are not seeing eye-to-eye on a particular issue, or when we are looking at the same thing like a news outlet, and we're interpreting it and receiving it totally different based off of our experiences.

So, there are friends that I know who are in interracial relationships who never have these conversations. So, I do want to say that just because we're in an interracial relationship doesn't meant that somehow we are dismantling systems of oppression or racism or anything. I think it requires consistent work of intentionally having these conversations.

Nancy?

I think for me the biggest thing, even just – we've only been married about five years, but we had a friend over, one of my good girlfriends, and she's African-American. My husband is African-American. And we had dinner, and of course, as a Ph.D. student, all roads lead to homework. So, eventually I had to excuse myself and go into another room and do some homework. And they just stayed and visited in the living room.

And I could hear them talking and laughing about TV shows that they grew up watching, where sometimes I have to say, "I grew up watching completely different shows than you." And it – I think in that moment what really impressed me was the fact that my husband, in choosing to marry outside of his ethnic group, there was sacrifice in that. Right? That there was a shared experience that I'm never going to have with him, and really just appreciating that. And it's mutual. Right? It's taking a lot for my husband to learn how to eat the food as spicy as I make it for exampl

So, I remember the first time I was in the car with my husband, and we were stopped at a traffic light or at a stop sign, and there were police cars, and I was – I was like, "Oh my goodness, they're looking for someone." What they were looking for was expired registration stickers, which, of course, ours was expired.

And I thought, "Oh, great, this – what a bother." And then I turned to look at my husband, who is like 6'3" and a big football player kind of guy, and he is frozen just from fear. And to realize that there are things that I don't worry about because I'm fair and I'm white and they're – I don't have to worry about them that are a reality for him. And just things like that that I think come with being married to someone and just being aware. But even then, it takes time, and I didn't see it.

And so, to have the eyes to see and the heart to feel when those things come up I think is just – yeah, it's a blessing, and it's also a challenge.

Sam, share with us a little bit about your lessons that you've learned.

And so, we did that test together, and every single one of the ones that I had but one. I was very Western-minded. And there was one I was very Eastern-minded. For her it was the exact opposite. She was Eastern-minded in every single one, but the one that I was Eastern-minded, she actually was Western-minded.

So, we found communication is so important in our marriage. When we were engaged, especially in the – while we were planning our wedding and doing all this stuff, you have a lot of decisions to make, and it's the first time you're really making life choices together. We found there was a lot of conflict at first.

And because we just thought about things differently, we would – like you said, you would see the exact same thing and literally think completely opposite ideas. But one thing I found is as you communicate, as you learn to resolve through conflicts, it really has helped, I think, both of us not only understand and love each other better, but also help in our conversations with other people.

My wife, she was a counseling emphasis in her ThM. She does a lot of counseling at our church, marital and things, and she's able to share a lot of experiences we've been through and help other couples. And things like that we found was just very beneficial.

And like Nancy said, it takes sacrifice. Right? It's not easy. You have to give something up for yourself, and they have to give something up, too. I realize she gives a lot up for me and vice versa. We speak different languages. Right? When she's on the phone talking to her family, I don't understand what she's saying, but I realize she's talking to me in English, which is not her natural language.

And different things – one of the things I realize, too, as being married to her is how I take for granted, because I was born in the US, I have a US passport. And there's just so many little things I never knew because she doesn't have a US passport, with Visas, even with renewing documents that she had to struggle through that I was just like, "Oh, I just went online and clicked a button and it was done."

And she always gets mad at me. She's like, "You don't understand what we've been through."

But it's only in this relationship now I realize, "Oh, this is what other people have to go through, too." And one thing I realize is because we're married, obviously we're willing to sacrifice because we love each other, but in the broader context of diversity, I think it's good for us to realize that no matter what relationship you have with someone, there is a level of sacrifice – maybe not in the extent of a marriage, but like you said, if you want to get to know someone, you can't just say, "I want to be exactly the way I am and not give up anything, but have an intimate relationship with you." There's gonna be this push and pull, and that's okay and it’s okay to struggle with that, but realizing that, I think, will be big step toward trying to engage in these diversity talks and be able to understand better.

I was like, "What can work?"

And he's like, "You know, our cultures, we can get married and our cultures can work together."

I said, "Well, it depends what you like."

And he said, "What do you mean?"

And I said, "Well, if it's a super-high value for you to have rice for every meal, it might not work that well."

He's like, "Oh, really? Never mind then."

Well, to some extent, we've all known what it's like to be to have some kind of immigrant experience, to be the odd person out. What can we do to help include people who might be on the margins in our churches, in our – even in our seminary and our society? Who wants to go on that one?

And in that moment, for me, because I speak Spanish, it's my first language, being able to step in and say, "Hey, I see you; can I help you?" And also asking – right? – "Can I help you," rather than just assuming and coming in. But I think part of that really just has to do with being seen, to say, "I notice you; I see you there." And that's a part of recognizing just our humanity in each other that I think can go a really long way.

And I understand not everybody speaks another language that can just step in and help in that particular way, but even sometimes doing what you can in terms of trying to help be that bridge of communication that kind of brings – especially in a shame-honor context – that you go, "This doesn't have to be a shameful experience for you," I think can really communicate a lot of care.

Elijah?

So, from a core standpoint, I think one thing that we could be doing is (a) learning more about different people's backgrounds and their histories and their worldview and not kind of prioritizing ours as "the" worldview to have. So, instead of encouraging people to assimilate to our way of thinking or our way of living or a majority culture's way of viewing the world, maybe taking a step back and trying to understand how other people may view the world very differently from you.

Sam, what do you think?

And a lot of times, we don't know what to do with it, and then the easy solution is just, "Okay, let's have one congregation on this side and one congregation on this side." And even though we're still one church, we almost operate like two different churches.

So, I don't have like an easy solution of, "Oh, you do these three steps and suddenly everything is fixed." I think obviously the fact we're doing this shows that's not the case. But just having these conversations, being able to talk about it.

One thing I also want to mention – Nancy brought up a little – but it's talking about comfort zone. For instance, I'm an Asian-American, right? So, when I'm with first-generation Chinese people, I get along with them, but in the end, I'm still not completely them; I'm not Chinese; I'm more American. Right? But if I'm with just like white people, or normal Americans, I can get along with them culturally, too, but I'm still Chinese. Right?

So, for me, I found I like to hang out – a lot of my friends are just Asian-Americans like me because we understand each other; we're comfortable. And I think that's true for everyone, right? I don't think we should feel guilty for enjoying being with people that understand us. Right?

But the problem is when we only do that and we refuse to try to get to know other people, because there is gonna be a way – a step out of your comfort zone, but just talking through it. No one is saying we have to all just completely not ever – like I'm not saying, "Nancy, you can never talk to any other person from your background; you have to go talk to everyone else."

No, it's you have your community, but also be willing to step outside occasionally, be willing to do some things. And as you do that, you'll realize, oh, there's a world out there of so many things that you can learn that would be good for you, too.

So, for instance, little seminars like that, conversations like this, just going and talking to someone you see on campus that you may not usually approach, whether you're sitting next to them in class, these are just small steps, I think, that can help get it along to hopefully more and more, yeah.

And I think there's a spectrum where you have assimilation on one side, and you have inclusion on the other side. So, inclusion, where you accept people as they are; assimilation where people have to change a little bit of who they are to fit into a popular kind of culture. And on that spectrum, people fall into different places with their level of assimilation, their level of inclusion.

How do you think that we can begin to help include people a little bit more in –

And I thought, "I've never been so suspect at a party ever." And then I had to explain how I was born an American citizen, and I'm here because my mother was a missionary and all of these things. And that just comes from a lack of understanding that the immigrant experience is just as diverse as everything else. And so, I just kind of wanted to add that, that there are various experiences in being able to connect with people and serve the immigrant community. I think part of that has to understand what does immigration look like? And it's hard to weed out the facts and fake news and all of this, but to kind of educate yourself on that point. Sorry.

So, just realizing, okay, just because we have certain privileges, we're proud of, other people are proud of their culture, their backgrounds. And it's okay that we're proud of our backgrounds, too, but not having this ethnocentrism to think, "Oh, somehow we're just better because I was somehow born here."

And I think little things like that can help us just start realizing, "Okay, yeah, there's things you need to learn about living here in the States, for instance, an international new student coming to live in Dallas that we can help you with. But that doesn't mean giving up all of the different traditions you have, too. "

And it's not really even – we're not really sharing the gospel here, we're just teaching them, for instance, "Okay, this is Walmart; this is where you get this." Or, "This is how you open up – get a credit card or open up a bank statement." Just little things like that to help.

And obviously some of the things they may know; some of the things may be new to them. But just teaching them and letting them kind of pick and choose, "Okay, this is something I need; this is for me."

And then, as you talk, you realize, "Okay, yeah, they're gonna learn how to live here, but they're also gonna hold onto to some of their culture, too, and that's okay." So, again, navigating that spectrum, stretch and realizing there's not one answer; that this is the right point. It's everyone gets to decide and being open enough to first ask people, "What do you think," instead of telling them your idea.

I think one thing we always do is we're really scared to make mistakes. And yeah, we should try to be nice and obviously not offend people, but we also really need to realize when we say things – for instance, if someone says something to me that may be a little offensive, I'm not just gonna be like, "You're a horrible person; I'm never talking to you again."

Like most people are nice enough to hopefully tell you, but as long as I know you care about me, and you're actually interested instead of just trying to be a stereotype, "Oh, I need to be polite to this person."

So, as you develop those relationships, I think you will just learn naturally and be able, hopefully, to gain some things you may not even be aware of, but just have it as you start meeting people of different backgrounds. Yeah.

Elijah, what do you think?

Then that comes into the question of not only who, but with assimilation I think sometimes diversity kind of gets this, "We want people who sound, look, talk like us" – I'm sorry – "Who sound like us and maybe say the things we want, but look a little different." And that, to me, has, at least in my perspective, been the model of diversity.

So, it's not truly a diverse perspective; it's just a person of color who's espousing some of the same ideals or worldview of majority culture. So, I would always challenge people if you truly want inclusion, what does that actually mean?

How do you bring diverse perspectives onto the table, and then how do you actually humble yourself and actually sit and listen to those perspectives so you can make a change that would challenge your church, or your organization, or your nonprofit, or whatever ministry you're involved?

Nancy?

In the church, I mean that can look like different kind of sermon styles. Right?

Like I think I haven't clapped in church probably since I came to DTS, and I still find myself going, "Oh, wait, we don't do that." And maybe I should. Maybe I need to be the person in church that says, "Actually, part of my worship expression is that I clap when we're singing, and that doesn't feel awkward to me." But when you're outnumbered – right? – it can be kind of hard.

There's this kind of statistic – I haven't quite figured out where it comes from, and I'm still on a search, that says a multicultural church falls into an 80-20 split. Right? Eighty percent – no more than 80 percent of any one culture and then 20 percent other. That is considered multicultural.

So, I can think of conversations at church where I've said, "But I'm just acting out of my cultural experience," and I've had to listen to people say, "I didn't know that." And then to pick up in that difficult place and go, "Okay, so how do we navigate this if what I want to do is be more than just a number of someone who looks ambiguously not white and yet want to be able to express my worship of God and my experience in the church in a way that connects to my Mexican culture?"

It's just not easy, and I think having leaders that are willing to step into those difficult situations and to be able to be humble enough to say they're might be another way of doing it. And yeah, I mean I think that there's a lot of churches that want to get there and they're in a different spectrum of how ready they are to make those moves, and I understand when you – when you are trying to press into a minority culture and that upsets the majority culture – and it's just – it's difficult.

So, I think it takes courage and it takes vulnerability. And like I said, it takes more than just presence. To be truly inclusive, it takes more than just allowing you to come and do the things that we do, but letting you do your things that we do, but letting you do your thing and lead us in that direction.

And I think once you begin to kind of navigate how and what am I reading, who am I studying under, how am I also including their perspective into what I know, I think you can begin to create a foundation in your church so when people of color actually come there, you are more prepared and equipped for people with diverse backgrounds to get there.

And I think so often in the inclusion diversity conversation it's, "Let's invite people of color in and then let them teach us how to be more inclusive." And that can sometimes be met with suspicion or pain because those people are like the guinea pigs. "How much can I drain out of you rather than how much can I truly learn and build into my staff or my leadership?" So that way I'm preparing our church for people of color and to be more inclusive.

But the more that we love each other, the more that we love the Lord, especially in the Church, that we need to be that outpost of the kingdom of God here on Earth so people can look from the outside in and say, "Here's the difference that Christ makes in the Church," especially when it comes to difficult conversations like this. So, thank you guys so much for being on the show.

Thank you, Sam.