Engaging Culture Through Film

Windrider Institute 

Darrell Bock: 

Welcome to The Table where we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of theology to everyday life. I'm Darrell Bock, Executive Director for Cultural Engagement at the Hendricks Center at Dallas Theological Seminary. I always have to take a deep breath when I go through that. And to my right is Kasey Olander, who works at the Hendricks Center and oversees, really, the logistics of all our podcasting and that kind of thing. So Kasey, welcome to The Table. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yes, I'm the web content specialist, and so a variety of responsibilities. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's right. So, everything that you see, you see because of Kasey. So, just say it that way. And then we've got Ryann, and I'm never always confident I'm going to pronounce your last name right. Is it Heim? 

Ryann Heim: 

You've got it. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. Director of Programming at the Windrider Institute, and she will tell us about Windrider in just a second. And then our second main guest is Bishop Claude Alexander, senior pastor of the Park Church in Charlotte, North Carolina, who also has been involved with Windrider. And this podcast is about Sundance and the arts and Christians and movies. And so we got to put that all together. So, let me begin by asking Claude this question. What's a pastor like you doing at a place like Sundance? 

Claude Alexander: 

Well, first of all, it's good to be with you to share in this conversation. My mom developed a love of movies in me at the age of five years old. The first movie that I remember going, with the big screens and we had to have intermission, was Hello, Dolly! 

Darrell Bock: 

Oh, wow. 

Claude Alexander: 

And so I've been a movie fan from the jump. The Ten Commandments, intermission, all of those. And so movies have been a part of my life. Now, what's a pastor doing at Sundance is that a pastor's job is not just biblical exegesis, but cultural exegesis. And there is no better form of cultural exegesis than film, and particularly independent film, because independent filmmakers tend to raise questions, issues, themes that the blockbusters do not, but that are most germane to human life and the concerns of everyday people. And so the opportunity to be in that environment with creatives and academics and theologians, there's no better birthday gift for me. And it's always around my birthday, so there it is. 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, that's quite an explanation. And what do you do when there's not an intermission? 

Claude Alexander: 

You just endure. Have popcorn. Just go with it. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, yeah, yeah, popcorn and Milk Duds, that's standard fare. 

Claude Alexander: 

There you go. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, Ryann, explain Windrider to us. What's Windrider, and what is Windrider doing at Sundance? 

Ryann Heim: 

Sure. So, Windrider was birthed 20 years ago out of this conversation of how do we, as Christians, talk about film and faith, and how does art affect us? And so we had a group of Biola undergrad film students, Fuller Theological Seminary students, and some professors go to the Sundance Film Festival, watch films, and then huddle back together to talk about how God is working in culture, and how God's moving within brokenness and responding to our hurts as people. And so 20 years later, that's grown to a group of over 30 organizations, whether that's seminaries, universities, ministry organizations, who come to Sundance and watch film, and then come back into our space and have conversations about the cultural exegesis, as Bishop Claude said. 

And so we also have started inviting… Well, even from the beginning, have been inviting Sundance filmmakers into our space to have different kinds of conversations than they're used to. At the Sundance Film Festival, they screen films and talk about, "Okay, how'd you get this film camera? What film camera did you use? What was your budget? How'd you get this actor?" Whereas in the Windrider space, we're asking some different kinds of questions, like, "Who are you? Why did you make this film? What's stirring in you? How has this topic transformed you? And how can we help," as people of faith, but also just as viewers of their films, "how can we take this and go forward and support?" And so it's a really different kind of space, the Sundance filmmakers really break open and get to share things that aren't in their PR canned answers. It's really a fun conversation that gets sparked thanks to their films, but also thanks to the Windrider space that sees the value in the conversations they're sparking. 

Darrell Bock: 

So Kasey, you're a seminary student, and you're here at Dallas Seminary, and I bet when you arrived on campus, you never had an idea you would go to the Sundance Film Festival. 

Kasey Olander: 

Never once did I think that. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, how did a seminary student like you end up in a place like Sundance? 

Kasey Olander: 

Well, working at the Hendricks Center with you, we talk a lot about cultural engagement, and a lot of times that's helping ministry leaders to think about how do we lead effectively, not just in a church setting, for example, but also how do we engage with the culture around us? Which, a lot of times, is evidenced in the art that's created. So, films being a good example of that, a lot of times we're looking at different ways to practice cultural engagement with our staff or with our interns. 

And so a few years ago, Darrell, when you first went to Sundance, I think that you became the evangelist for it, in partnering with Windrider. Being the web content specialist, I helped to manage our website, and so partnering with Windrider also allows us to showcase films from the Windrider Studios, which essentially are these beautiful films that are raising, as Bishop Claude said, these ideas, because they're able to express creatively some things that are evoking such rich depth, theological concepts and things, without saying them explicitly; they're expressed through art. So, a combination of all of those conversations and partnerships led us to say, "Well, why don't we take several of our staff members and go to the Sundance Film Festival?" And so thank you, I guess. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, you came along for the ride? 

Kasey Olander: 

I did. 

Darrell Bock: 

And what did you think of the experience? 

Kasey Olander: 

I'm really grateful for it. I didn't know what to expect, going in. In undergrad, I majored in arts and technology because I was interested in making animated movies. The Lord directed my heart more towards college ministry, and so that was essentially my viewpoint from which I was viewing films. And so I thought the main takeaway that I had from engaging at Sundance was the ability to talk to the filmmakers, as Ryann highlighted, and to hear how thoughtful they were. They were intentional with every decision they made. So, even if it was a film that I really probably wouldn't have seen this in my free time, I saw one that was like a horror movie, and I would not be a purveyor of horror movies if that had not been assigned to me. But to hear from the filmmakers and to hear about how they thought through every decision, I could appreciate so much more the effort that they went to, and the artwork that they created. Even if it isn't generally in my interest area, I really appreciated how art leads us towards its creator. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, I have a couple of statements here that I pinned when I was at Sundance this last year as a result of the morning sessions that Windrider hosted, and they kind of are an effort to connect the dots between biblical faith and movies. So, here we go. I'm going to say them, and then I'm just going to let you all react. The Bible is an empathy machine to help us understand ourselves, so we can connect to Him, talking about God, and hopefully to one another through Him. Movies are empathy machines helping us to understand the other, and sometimes discover that the other is also us. So, what do you think? Ryann? 

Ryann Heim: 

I would say that it all boils down to the power of story. The fact that God has granted us knowledge of Him through scripture and through story, a book of stories and storytelling is one of the many ways that He connects with us. It's not surprising that we, as His creation, would lean to story so much. And I, as a movie buff, I've always loved movies, can see the ways that film uses story to bring empathy, to introduce us to people we've never met and take us to places we've never been. The Bible does the same work and reveals our Savior to us. I think that God is not only revealing Himself through general revelation, through nature and His creation, but also the things that are created, and therefore film. 

Darrell Bock: 

Claude? 

Claude Alexander: 

I think the common point is whether one is sitting in a theater, or sitting in a chair reading scripture, or watching a movie, there is an openness that one has. And with that openness, there is a possibility of being introduced to something new. We would call that revelation. And with that, the notion of not just what's going on in the world, but who we are in relationship to it, and how what we see in others is very much what we know to be true about ourselves. Which takes us to a deeper level of understanding ourselves, and hopefully of compassion for other people, and sensitivity to the plights in which they find themselves. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, when we think about revelation, revelation is basically a disclosure. And so when I talk about the Bible in public, when I'm talking about cultural engagement, and I often say Christians tend to present the truths of the Bible to people in a way of saying, "Well, it's true because it's in the Bible." But I want to say no, it's in the Bible because it's true, because the Bible is a disclosure of reality, as seen through the eyes of God and the characters of the Bible and the different positions that they take. And so learning how to engage with someone who may or may not have a sense of allegiance to the Bible, but certainly is engaged in life, is an important thing to be pursued. 

And when you're pursuing it with someone who may not have a religious inclination in their thinking, to be able to do it by saying, "No, we're having a conversation about perceptions, about what is real and what reality is, and the way in which life is designed," et cetera, that that ends up being an important part of thinking through who we are as humans. And movies, at least movies that are aimed at not just entertaining or… How can I say this? Making us distracted from the things that are going on around us, but actually are trying to make some type of artistic statement, are wrestling with the same realities of life. Maybe from a perspective of faith and maybe not, but it's important to understand where people are coming from. 

Claude Alexander: 

Absolutely. I think the other piece, and the reason why it's so important for you and the center that you are leading, because movies have the potential of creating common experiences among people who have nothing else in common. But when they enter that space, and are engaged by those disclosures on film, they have a common experience from which they can have shared reflection. And it takes them to a place much faster than trying to just have them sit at a table to discuss an issue where they've had no common experience together. 

Kasey Olander: 

Is that what you think creates that openness that you alluded to earlier? Or do you think it's the other way around; that people enter into a film with a space of openness, and then have this shared experience? 

Claude Alexander: 

I think that it can be either/or. I think it can start from either space, right? But what happens, regardless of how it starts, eventually there is this openness, and they're having this common experience, from which, if there is intentionality, then they can have shared reflection. Yeah. 

Ryann Heim: 

Which is the goal of the Windrider Summit, I'd say, is to create that space so that… Because students are going and seeing films, all these people are going and consuming, which is awesome, because it's creating these shared experiences, and it gets your brain and heart really rolling, but without a space to process those things, and to share what you're learning, and to wrestle with it, and to wrestle with, "Why God?" And to do that in community, where does it go? And so the benefit of, I think, the Christian life and walk is community, and is getting to experience life and community. And so the Summit really creates a space for conversation about these things, and a way forward together, and not just, "Okay, great, you saw a movie, and you can put it on your Letterboxd." We really have conversation and continue to make that shared experience something that can hopefully take you out of Park City and stay with you, versus being left there. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, I'm playing with a metaphor that's popping in my head as I'm hearing this, and that goes something like this. If you were to go and walk through a museum, and you were to look at the history of humanity at one point or another, and you share an experience in a museum, that's usually if you go with someone and you aren't going by yourself, generates conversation as you go and look at the various exhibits. There's a sense in which movies are a museum on life, little glimpses and windows into different aspects of life, that kind of thing, where it has the same kind of potential. 

And in the back of my mind I'm thinking not only is going to a movie with someone a kind of community experience when you do that, but there's also an opportunity for the church, if they were to think about how to work with movies in their own life and ministry, whether it be in a small group setting or something like that, or a small group determining to go to a movie together and talk about it afterwards, that kind of thing, it seems to me that getting a glimpse of where the church is versus perhaps where the culture is, is an aspect of ministry I'm not sure we have thought about or given much development to. Am I off, or does that opportunity strike you as something that we can think about pursuing? 

Claude Alexander: 

So, that's been something that we've tried to do. We do a series called Theology and Film within the church where we'll show some movies in the church setting, and then we'll go to some, and then we'll come back and discuss. We have also used this to build relationships with other congregations, particularly congregations that are different from us. And so we will go, again, creating a common experience or shared with reflection. And in those instances, the conversations have been rich, and the opportunity for relationships to be developed has been great as well. 

Kasey Olander: 

And Claude and Ryann, I think you both highlighted an important facet of that, which is intentionality, because it's so easy to think about we can go to a film, we watch the screen, and then if we don't talk to each other afterwards, then we had the opportunity for a shared experience, but it's something that we really missed out on if we only focused on our internal experience, and then didn't bother to engage with one another afterwards. 

And so Ryann, I like that you highlighted that the Summit is Windrider gathering a lot of Christians and then experiencing the Sundance Film Festival together, because not only do we have the opportunity to hear from the filmmakers about what intentional decisions they made, we also have the chance to maybe sharpen one another and encourage each other, because there were some people that I heard from at the Summit, for example, the horror film, that I was like, "I don't know if that was my cup of tea." But hearing some people's thoughts about it afterwards, I appreciated, "You know what? There's a lot more depth and richness to that than maybe I initially realized." And that was only possible because of the conversations with my brothers and sisters in community. 

Ryann Heim: 

Absolutely. Yeah. 

Claude Alexander: 

Now, Darrell… Go ahead, Ryann. Go ahead, Ryann. 

Ryann Heim: 

Sorry. And that's the thing about Windrider, and Windrider and Sundance, is it's this training ground, almost, for young filmmakers, for seminarians, ministry leaders to bridge culture and church, to bridge faith and film, and learn how to intentionally engage in that, and how to use something, a Sundance film that maybe has zero mention of faith, that could be counter to what we believe, and yet there's still something there that we can have a conversation about as Christians or just as people. And so the Summit, while it is this summit mountaintop experience, our hope is that Windrider trains our community to continue the conversation. That's Windrider Studios. We have this library of short film, mostly short films, Q&A's, exploration guides or discussion guides, for our community to use in their own context. So, the conversation doesn't have to end at Sundance. You can use a short film in your Bible study and your chapels, at events, as a way to gather, have a shared experience, and then continue a conversation about a multitude of themes that Christians are already talking about, or wanting to talk about, but might not have the connector. 

Claude Alexander: 

Darrell, I want to amplify something that you said in the question, and that was the point about the church missing out an opportunity to reflect on where it is and/or where it is not. And the thing about independent films more than the big budget is that they are putting in our face circumstances and issues that do cause us to think of where are we in the story? Or where are we not? Where should we be in the story? Where are we missing? And so I just wanted to make sure that that gets amplified, because you raised it, and it's a significant point for us to know. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, we haven't talked about any specific films that were at the 2024 Sundance, but let me raise one that I think did this powerfully, and then I may mention another documentary, I don't even remember the title of it, from an earlier Sundance that did this for me. The film that I'm going to mention first off is the film Daughters, which, for me, put me in a world that I'm never in. I have never been to a prison in my life, either for a cause or without cause. And the Black experience of many families, which are broken because of the presence of crime, not saying that crime's limited to Black community, but just simply because of the way in which crime is a part of this film, and making an effort to connect dads who are in prison with their daughters, with whom they lacked a relationship. And everything that was involved in that was like walking, for me, into a foreign world. 

And understanding and viewing these people… Because the lens does this. What the lens does is it turns your subjects into persons, persons who you connect with, persons who you identify with, persons who you feel, in their voice, what they are feeling on the inside, that kind of thing. And because it draws you close, it causes you to reflect on the human experience that's being portrayed, which is the effort of these dads, many of whom may or may not have had a close relationship to their daughter, reconnecting in a way that ended up, at the end of the film, being a little bit painful, because of the lack of follow-up that could come on the other end of the experience. And I just found myself drawn in to a world that normally I… I wouldn't say don't inhabit, I've never inhabited. And, as such, with a whole series of questions about what that human experience was generating, and how to think about it. 

That, to me, is kind of a parable of what films do for people. Kasey, I don't know if you responded to Daughters the way that I did, but it was part of what makes Sundance Sundance. 

Kasey Olander: 

Absolutely. I think the whole theater was crying, by the way. So, there's that warning for our listeners, so grab your tissues, but also watch Daughters. That is, I think, the one that most universally we were like, "Oh, pretty much everyone needs to see this." Whether that's your experience or not, that, as you mentioned earlier, the quote about movies being empathy machines, that you can experience either the daughters' feelings, or even the fathers', and the two of them, for the most part, they have this longing for the relationship, and it's just a matter of how is this logistically going to work? And it is all moving towards a father-daughter dance. And so yeah, I definitely would agree that the way that film is done is so… It puts flesh on an issue that a lot of us, if we're not familiar with it, really can't get our minds around. 

Darrell Bock: 

And the challenge of the story, and then I'll throw it out to you all, Ryann and Claude, the challenge of that story is here you are in a prison, you're dealing with, if I can say it this way, subject: criminal. A criminal who's in jail for a crime they've committed. And yet the story is about that person as a human being reconnecting to a daughter, or connecting to a daughter, who they may or may not have had a close relationship with in the past, but they're trying to reestablish the connection, and the impact of what that very human, typical experience was doing in that environment. 

Claude Alexander: 

Darrell, I think you're making several points that are important to raise, and that is that with that film, proximity was created for the viewer with the characters in the story. And through that proximity, the judgments that we would make from a distance, in terms of who they are, their motivations, et cetera, were challenged by what we now began to know and realize about them in proximity. That a felon is also a father, right? 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. 

Claude Alexander: 

With the same longings and desires that a father outside of the system has. And that these daughters have these same desires. But there's something that is frustrating that connection. And the power of the story is the steps to which they are willing to take to overcome that obstacle. But none of that happens to us without being brought proximal to it. And that's what the movie does, it creates that proximity. 

Darrell Bock: 

And it also opens up some real tensions, ethically, about how to do… Because one of the issues in the movie, and I'm trying to tell this in a way that doesn't entirely spoil the movie if someone hasn't seen it, but one of the tensions of the story is is that you have this event, everything's about the buildup to this father-daughter experience, which everyone is walking into with some level of expectation and trepidations at the same time, because they don't know what it's going to generate, because of the context in which this is happening in. 

And then the tension on the other end of it, having gone through this very intense, personal experience that the fathers and daughters have, and you get to highlight a variety of father-daughter relationships in the midst of the film, there's no follow-up on the back end as to what's going to happen on the other end. And so how do you deliver what that experience generated in such a way that you don't have a follow-up afterwards? And that's the tragedy in the movie, if I can say it that way, is the recognition that the way in which the context has controlled what has happened is still in control on the other end, even though the experience that the fathers and daughters had with one another, almost without exception, was transcendent, in one way or another. Ryann, what do you think, what do you think? Daughters won an award, for understandable reasons. 

Ryann Heim: 

Yes, very understandable. And we had the pleasure of hosting Angela Patton and her producer, I believe, at Windrider, and they were just amazing to have. Angela's a world changer, clearly, if she was able to not just pull off the film, but pull off the dances that she's doing in these prisons is pretty incredible. It's available to watch on Netflix, so that's exciting. 

Darrell Bock: 

There we go. 

Ryann Heim: 

That was one of the big pickups during the 2024 Sundance Film Festival. 

I think that one of the things that I keep re-learning about film that it kind of amazes me is how specific of a context this is, in Daughters. Darrell, you said, how would you relate to that at all? You've never known that experience specifically. And so the luxury of film is, and especially documentary film in this proximity, is that we get to step into those shoes. But it's also something so universal, that I think some people come into film and they think, "Oh, well, I didn't relate to that person, so I'm out." But the truth is you are maybe a daughter, or maybe a son, or a father or a mother. And so if you're a parent or a child, you have some sense of what it would be like to be estranged, removed, to have lost, to have grieved; or to have an opposite experience, and to be able to recognize the complexities of life that come with that experience. And what do I have that they don't? What do they have that I don't? 

I think that's just one of my favorite things about film, is that it's easy to say, "Well, that's a specific thing that I can never relate to." That's the easy thing. But we're still crying in the movie theater. Why are we crying? We know this yearning for our father or mother, or for affirmation, or for love, or presence. We know this, as humans. And so I think that's the challenge that independent film creates, that Windrider tries to spark with the films we curate, is how do you relate to this person that, by the world's terms, you would not have anything in common with? And what are you going to do about it? 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, I think that it's a really powerful, obviously, film that puts us in an odd… And it also opens up a whole nother vista that doesn't have so much to do with the father-mother relationship, as it does it opens up an aspect of human experience that, for some people, is foreign, but for other people is very real. It's where they live, it's what they are going through. And from a pastoral point of view, from a Christian point of view, from an empathetic point of view, to be able to go to spaces that normally you might not occupy or be exposed to, experiences that otherwise you might not experience, and to develop some sense of the human element of what's involved in what is taking place is a very important skill to develop that sometimes, when we live in our bubbles, that atrophies, we never develop that muscle. 

Claude Alexander: 

Yeah, yeah. I was thinking about the point that you were making, in terms of how the movie ends. The movie ends open-endedly. Well, there are parables that Jesus taught that ended that same way. The parable of the two lost sons; it ends very much with tension still in the air. And I think that also is what resonates with us, is that this is still very much a part of life. That things often are not closed as neatly as we would like for them to be, and we have to live another episode with the question yet unanswered. Now, we would like to have it answered, and we would like for it to be answered in a particular way. 

Darrell Bock: 

"And they lived happily ever after." 

Claude Alexander: 

Right. And yet, life is so often not according to that script. And so we leave that particular film with questions that yet remain, hoping that it will look in a particular way. 

Darrell Bock: 

And reflecting on if I find myself in that situation, with an opportunity to think about it or speak into it, what would, could, and should be my response? 

Claude Alexander: 

Yes. Yes. Absolutely. 

Darrell Bock: 

The lessons learned. Let me shift gears. I'm going to go to a completely different film. I don't know if you all saw it or not, because we just talked about films that go beyond Sundance, that actually make it into the public square after Sundance. And the film that I have in mind is a cute little film that I got on a plane as I was going my international travel, so I'm traveling either from the US to Australia, or the US to Europe. And my joke is there aren't enough good movies on planes. And I'm filing through the film choices, and I see this film called Thelma. Okay? Now, Thelma was this film about this, I don't know, she was in her eighties, maybe? 

Ryann Heim: 

93. 

Darrell Bock: 

93? Okay. 93-year-old woman. The opening scene is her trying to cope with technology, and she's struggling, is the way to say it, and trying to catch up with the modern world. And the whole thing, it's a piece of fiction on the one hand, but it is full of everyday life on the other, and dropping you into the world of what it means to be old and coping with age, et cetera. And done with humor and skill, and a really fine acting job by the person who played Thelma. 

Ryann Heim: 

June Squibb. 

Darrell Bock: 

Completely different, a completely different movie than Daughters. On the other end of the spectrum, in many ways. But actually doing many of the same things that Daughters is doing. 

Claude Alexander: 

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And of particular note, it's hitting where many people are who are in the sandwich generation, who are both caring for their kids and caring for their parents. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, absolutely. How do I cope with this personality that I'm dealing with? 

Claude Alexander: 

Right, right, how to cope. And so it's very much intergenerational in how it plays out, the things that it addresses. It happens to be Richard Roundtree's last movie. 

Darrell Bock: 

Oh, wow. 

Claude Alexander: 

Which was something to see. And yeah, it and Daughters, those were my two most favorite movies. 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting. 

Ryann Heim: 

Agreed. 

Claude Alexander: 

And it's interesting that you picked those two to discuss. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, that's totally out of the hat, out of dozens that I could have chosen from. 

Claude Alexander: 

Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

And the reason I chose them, again, I already suggested it, because of the spectrum that it represents. Daughters is very much placed in a very real, tension-filled situation; Thelma very much in a, on the one hand, fictitious scene, in which there's obviously the effort to present and even highlight, and in some ways, rhetorically exaggerate a certain stage of life, but to do so in a way in which the tensions become clear, and played with such humor and truth. Because the other element of that story, of course, is she gets scammed at one point, and the whole film is about her, "I'm going to get that guy." 

Kasey Olander: 

It's an action movie with a 93-year-old protagonist. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, a 93-year-old action movie, yeah. I'll let you think about that in your spare time. And you put that, and it shows the range of what you're dealing with, that Sundance introduces so effectively, it seems to me, and you're getting glimpses in both of those films of issues about life and reality that we all have to cope with. 

Claude Alexander: 

Yeah, absolutely. The fact that the genesis of the movie was an experience that the writer's grandmother had. So, it starts with a real experience that is probably more common than we can imagine. And then looks at- 

Darrell Bock: 

I know lots of grandmothers who've asked their grandsons to help them with technology. 

Claude Alexander: 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ryann, you were about to say something? 

Ryann Heim: 

Well, yeah, the film was beautiful, cinematic, true, in some senses, but also outlandish in the best ways. As Kasey was saying, it's action movie with a 93-year-old as the star. Step aside, Tom Cruise. So, I love the film because it's real life, the scams, the vulnerability that you face when you're aging, and then this intergenerational relationship with her grandson. But the conversation following, while you're laughing, you're also recognizing the vulnerability and the need. And yeah, I really loved the filmmaker's making his grandmother the superhero, in some ways, and recognizing that the grandmother is the superhero. Just because she makes a mistake doesn't disqualify her from that or from all the ways that she's provided support and wisdom in his life growing up. 

And one fun fact that I have is that David Bolen was the director of photography on that film, and he will have just been the Spirit of Windrider in 2025, our first DP to honor. But he's had a lot of films at Sundance, and I think that his photography in Thelma is exceptional. And his cinematography throughout the bulk of his work is pretty interesting. It helps to propel the story, and it plays a role in how we all react to the film. 

Darrell Bock: 

So Ryann, you used a technical term, I'm going to ask you to define, a technical abbreviation, what is a DP? I think of Dr. Pepper, so help me. 

Ryann Heim: 

I am a big fan of Dr. Pepper, but no, a DP in film is a director of photography. So, really they are the one behind the camera deciding how the film is going to look, and what is going to be framed. And so all those action shots in Thelma are thanks to David Bolen. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, let me bring up a third film. I don't think this one appeared in 2024, it's earlier, but it got mentioned in 2024 at the Windrider Summit, and so I watched it subsequently, and it's a third kind of film, and it is a film called Beyond Utopia, which it… Different than Daughters, different than Thelma, very much a documentary on how people are on the… How can I say this? The challenge of trying to escape utopia, which is North Korea, okay? We're already thinking, when we think about this. And the story of the complexity of what that takes, the angst of a mom trying to get her son out of North Korea, et cetera, the risk that is involved, et cetera. An amazing film, in many ways. I know, Ryann, I know you're familiar with it, because you all recommended it to us. Claude, is that one that you've seen? 

Claude Alexander: 

Yeah, I did see it. And the courage, on all persons' parts, the level of sacrifice that one is willing to make, the extent to which one is able to go, willing to go, the adjustments that you have to make on the fly. And unlike Mission Impossible, which is fiction, this is real life, and equally as suspenseful. 

Darrell Bock: 

Because there's real risk. 

Claude Alexander: 

There's real risk. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. 

Claude Alexander: 

Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

Kasey? Beyond Utopia, different film than the other two. 

Kasey Olander: 

I appreciate the variety of stories that are represented. It sort of follows one main family, but also talks about these other people. And it's really fascinating that it is a documentary, so it's true stories, but it also follows these groups of people, what they have in common is this one pastor who's helping people get out. And so I don't think it's a Christian film, so to speak, but that's an interesting theme, that that's the person who's making an effort, at great personal cost and risk to himself. He's the one who's, in a lot of ways, laying down his life in order to better these other people's experience, and to give them a chance at freedom and a new life. 

Darrell Bock: 

And I've seen the people who produced this documentary interviewed, and I think it would be fair to say the last thing they expected when they went into the topic was to run into a pastor as one of their main characters. Which itself is an interesting… Here's a, I'll say it this way, a secular documentary that walks into a public space, and lo and behold, who's the person who's enabling people, on the one hand, to take the risk, and is taking the risk himself in order to be able to help people out? It's a pastor who is doing this very much on the side, and with very much of a reputation, because one of the things that you see in the film is lots of people are contacting him for this kind of help. And this kind of… I can use the word ministry. Very unusual piece. 

And the other thing that I appreciate about this kind of documentary that also often comes at Sundance is in the midst of telling the story about someone trying to escape from North Korea, you get a lot of history and a lot of context for what has created the situation that you are now paying attention to. 

Ryann Heim: 

Yeah, that's one of the things that really drew me to the film. It's the footage of the fleeing from North Korea, and going through all the different countries to get to safety is really compelling. But for me, I didn't have the context to understand the experience of a North Korean. I guess in my context growing up, I knew North Korea: bad. That was it. And didn't really understand the consequence of the government, and the way that it impacts, continually, the people underneath it. 

And so to be given that context throughout the film, while also seeing a bit of hope of there are people doing good work, there are people providing freedom, but to understand the context that they're coming from, and also the history and how not to repeat it. Because without knowing that information, how would I know what to look out for, for my own citizenship, and how to be engaged in the world more broadly? So, that's one of the things that I really appreciated about Beyond Utopia, was that it gave context and then hope. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, we've seen… Our time has blown by. We've seen and tried to give a little bit of a glimpse about what Sundance is about. We've tried to explain why this can be valuable, not just for one's own personal understanding and development, but also for community. The opportunity that represents to the church, to walk into spaces and have conversations in areas about everyday life that certainly open up the opportunity to talk about the significance of the gospel and what God is doing in the world, that kind of thing. It just seems to be lots of benefits. I'm going to give each of you one last moment to say one last thing. So, this is the reverse of Steven Jobs, "One more thing." This is the one last thing. What one last thing would you want our people listening to appreciate about the Christians and arts in something like Sundance? Ryann, I'll let you go first. 

Ryann Heim: 

Oh, the pressure! Okay. So, my kind of layups would be join the conversation. So, that's the first thing I'd say. Come to the Summit, participate, experience the films and the conversation. Or start now by logging onto windriderstudios.org. 

Darrell Bock: 

There you go. 

Ryann Heim: 

You can sign up for free and watch our short films and, more importantly, I think, engage in conversation following those. And then really, I'm just thankful to do the work, and I'm thankful for partners like Dallas Theological Seminary, the Hendricks Center, who carry on the conversation, and who are in the culture and in dialogue with culture, and not building up walls to be set apart from it, but engaging in it and working to make it better. Because I think that's what we're called to do, as participants in the kingdom of God. 

Darrell Bock: 

Claude? 

Claude Alexander: 

The thing that I would say is our growth as individuals, and as a community of believers, occurs to the degree to which we are exposed and are willing to engage. We grow through exposure and engagement, and this is an opportunity for that to happen in a powerful way. 

Darrell Bock: 

And Kasey? 

Kasey Olander: 

I'll just reiterate to sum up our conversation, we've talked about so many things, and I love the case studies of Daughters and Thelma and Beyond Utopia, but… I'm so sorry. I think one of the most significant things… Wow, I'm drowning. Okay, sorry, Mike, please edit that out. 

I think one of the most significant things that we've talked about today is the intentionality with which we engage in things like films. So, films offer us an opportunity as Christians to not just completely, wholeheartedly embrace what the culture is offering, but also not wholeheartedly shun what the culture is offering as well. But, and Claude, I thought that you said it well, the engagement is what's important about how we dialogue with things, with the courage and compassion that we talk about a lot, but also the curiosity to maybe ask some questions, and to then engage with a level of depth to seek understanding, and then see how we can present Jesus as the ultimate truth. 

Darrell Bock: 

All right, I'd like to thank y'all for being our conversation partners as we reviewed Sundance 2024 and think about 2025, which, by the time we release this, will also have taken place, and we'll have had another dip into the Sundance experience. I'm sure there's another podcast coming down the road in which we'll take a look at what is… I'll have some fun here, what is yet to happen and has happened, both simultaneously. And so I want to thank y'all for giving us your time and helping us be a conversation partner on helping people to see the value of thinking through art when it's well done, and the opportunity that creates for people in the church. Thank you all very, very much. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yes, thank you guys. 

Claude Alexander: 

Thank you. 

Ryann Heim: 

Thank you so much. 

Darrell Bock: 

And we want to thank you, our listener, for being with us. If you like our show, please leave a rating or review on your favorite podcast app, so that others can discover us. And we hope you'll join us again next time, when we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of theology to everyday life. Welcome to The Table, and we hope you'll come back again soon.