Equipping and Apologetics Ministry

And so … and I wrote my thesis on The Great Commission. So was thinking about, "Hey. How do you do incarnational ministry like Jesus did in a totally secular environment?" And a mentor of mine here, Andy Seidel, pushed me toward the Army. And I looked at it and was like, "You know what? I think that's what the Lord's got for me next."

So, I went into that, and it was a massive culture shock. I went from … I literally went from going on an expedition with the Center for the study of New Testament manuscripts, to basic training.

And after my second deployment my wife got pregnant with our first child, and it was like, "Hey. You know what? I'm probably done being shot at, so let's transition." And so we moved back here, and I started my Doctorate of Ministry in discipleship and spiritual formation at Biola University. And then I've been on staff at Watermark the whole time that I've been doing that, so about six years, as the Director of Equipping and Apologetics.

And so when I came back, I remember the very first day I came back, my boss at the time, Blake Holmes, who's now our campus pastor, came and got me. He was like, "Hey, we're gonna go meet these guys." And we sat down with the Apologetics team at Watermark, which is this group of dudes with a handful of women thrown in there. And it was like, "Hey. You're gonna lead this team." And I was like, "Okay." So here we to. And that's when we really started to form a lot of the Apologetics ministry at Watermark. That's a whole other story that maybe we can get into in a minute.

And so a lot of this, a lot of our Great Questions, which is the title of our apologetics ministry, a lot of our Great Questions ministry was born out of just necessity, because everybody's sharing their faith. And so, of course, you share your faith, and somebody asks you a question, and you don't know the answer to it. And so you're like, "Uh."

And so the equipping side of it, tends to happen a little bit through some courses that we teach. But the ongoing, week in, week out ministry is to people who don't yet believe.

We have a lot of international students here in Dallas. Dallas is very much a cultural melting pot from around the world. So we've had all kinds of students come in. And this was not only their first encounter with a church, but their first encounter with Christianity. And so it's a … we try to keep it as small as possible, as the least amount of intimidation. And so when you have a room full of people, and you want to ask a question, then it's intimidating to raise your hand in a roomful of 50 people. So we try to keep it really small. And we've found that that has worked.

But we found that that also is, really that time is like the front porch, or the front door to really get into the relational space with people. So we encourage and we follow up with people to say, "Hey. We'd love to buy you coffee or lunch or a meal, a breakfast, whatever. We just want to hear your story." Because, as you know, you do apologetics, you can answer somebody's questions. But I tell people all the time, I'm like, "Hey. You're not actually answering a question, you're answering a person. And the person is asking a question."

The question is actually very quite secondary. The primary deal is who are you? What's your story? Where did you come from? What shapes the way that you think about the world and God? And not just what you think about him, but how you think about him. And does that line up with scripture? And you just can't know that in an initial meeting. And so we really try to cultivate relationships with people so that we're meeting with them outside of that Monday evening expression. That's where the real work, I would say, of apologetics is going on.

And so that's really the … those are two sides of the same coin for us. But that's the … yeah, that's apologetics for us there at Watermark.

And that expresses itself, a lot of times, by people who don't listen. They're using the space, when someone else is talking, to formulate in their own minds how they're gonna respond, instead of actually listening to what the person is saying. And what I would say to that is, we don't get to do that. Jesus has called us to love people. And that looks like treating them with value and worth, because they are valuable, and they do matter to God.

And so you're not talking to … When you do apologetics or evangelism, you're not talking to somebody who's another notch in your belt. You're talking to somebody who's made in the image of God, who's deeply loved by God, who deeply matters. Their story matters. Their views matter. And so, yeah, we don't get to just mow over people. We have to love them.

And so, I would say they're like, "Hey. How do you do evangelism? How do you do apologetics? How do you do these things?" The first thing I would say is, "You gotta get close to Jesus." There's a way that you can do these things and do them apart from the energizing work of the holy spirit. It's called legalism. But there's a lot of us that fall into that. As opposed to, that's not the ultimate aim. I'm never asking myself, "How can I do evangelism today?"

The question is, how can I agree with Jesus? How can I walk with Jesus today? 'Cause I promise you, if you get close to Jesus, you will do evangelism and apologetics, because if you follow him, he's leading you to … he's saving the world. So if you're near him, that stuff will absolutely spill over and you'll be involved. But then, you'll be involved not in your own strength. You're gonna be … he's with you. And you're co-laboring with him in the gospel.

But then there's also this piece in that course that is not just this is the information, it's also coaching people on how to have the conversation, how to engage the person. Because that's just as important as the content. We could talk about that more if you want. I could get on a soap box, but I'll spare you guys. That's just as important. And so we've taught that class, and then now it's available on a cohort base online. So anybody can take it in the world, as long as you have Internet access.

And so we try to utilize that, and then we also do a lot of different seminar type things. Dr. Bock's been with us on a handful of those. And whether they're seminar style or a conference or … we're pretty consistently throwing apologetics content at our body. But I would say Answering the Tough Ones is the primary one that we push people toward, if for no other reason, if it just gets the conversation started with them, it whets an appetite, then we have a ton of resources we can throw to people as they're like, "Whoa, I want more."

And so I was just aware, and I was praying, 'cause we pray a lot. I was like, "Hey, Lord. What's … how do you want me to interact with her in this moment?" 'Cause there's 20 other people in the room. And so I called her by name, 'cause she had been there. I was like, "Hey. Let me just ask you a question. I feel like you've asked a lot of different questions of us, and I feel like we've given you pretty satisfactory answers. If we haven't, please let us know, 'cause we want to clarify. But I just want to ask, what's behind this? What's driving this?" And the room got real still, 'cause everybody's like, "Oh, snap. It just got real, man." And it also got really quiet, 'cause she started to cry. And so I'm like half going, "Okay. Now we're getting somewhere," and the other half of me's going, "Oh, dang it. I just made somebody cry."

And so it was real still for a little bit, and she finally said, "I actually think you guys are right. I want to believe this, but my husband is Muslim, and I'm afraid if I convert to Christianity, he's gonna kill me." And now all the smoke and mirrors of the questions are gone, and you're dealing with the actual problem. And so we … There was a girl in there with us who has a degree from Dallas Seminary in counseling, which is great. And so I asked her to step out with her and spend the rest of the time just a focused one-on-one. And we labored with her.

But that just illustrates … You don't ever want to be weird about it and be like, "Hey, what are you really asking me?" But you do want to be sensitive to the holy spirit, who could be in that moment drawing that out. And so, you just have to … it's an art form. You have to listen and be sensitive to what's going on.

How would you handle integration? You said you just throw apologetics content at the body wherever you can. Do you do integration in terms of, do you reach out to, like for pulpit ministry? Can you get apologetics into there? Women's small groups? Youth? How do you integrate that?

Instead I would say, heat up the value. Don't just start a program. Heat up the value. And the value is, are you sharing your faith? That's the critical question. And if your church is not active in evangelism, don't start an apologetics program. Teach your church to share their faith. And you do that by a bunch of different means, but primarily by modeling it for them. That's a core principle in the Army. You don't lead from behind. You lead from the front. You don't tell the people, "You gotta need to be sharing your faith," and then you don't ever share your faith. So the way we champion this at Watermark is … I don't know if you've ever met our senior pastor, Todd Wagner. But that dude, he's just a … he's a thoroughbred when it comes to evangelism. That's one of the unique ways that God's gifted him. And he's just always talking about sharing his faith. And that's real. I go to lunch with him, or I'm out with … and he's always sharing his faith. And so you feel bad if you don't, because you're with him and you're like, "I didn't share my faith. I'm sorry."

But that's real. And so it spills over. And so a lot of our ministries, whether it's our apologetics ministry, or our marriage enrichment ministry, which has a lot of people from outside the church come in, 'cause their marriage is on fire, and they're like, "Help." Our recovery ministry, regeneration is similar to that. And so people will come in, and they don't know the Lord. So, as you share your faith, then apologetics just becomes a necessary ministry, because there's a bunch of lost people around. And isn't that the way the church is supposed to be?

And so I would just encourage people to think about it in terms like that. Don't start a program, heat up a value. And as you heat that value up, you can't stop. You will have to have an apologetics program, because there's just people laying everywhere. It's like, "Well, we gotta help these people."

And so you want to do … in fact I ask people in our interview process when I'm interviewing people to join the team, which is not an easy interview. I'm like, "Hey. On a spectrum, do you tend more toward the rational side and just cogent arguments and convincing people from that stage or from that perspective, or do you tend to be more pastoral where …" And really what we're looking for is somebody who is a good blend of both. They're able to pastor people, and also be able to hang with them, intellectually, as they're asking very good questions that people need to be asking.

And so you're looking for that guy who's gonna be your … he's a gifted, visionary, godly leader who's gonna carry the flag. And you can see them. Once you heat values up like this … you know the old adage … the cream rises to the top. And the people who are just messing around and playing games, they'll fall away. The people who are like, "No. I'm serious about this," they'll stick around. And so with them you find your team.

I would say especially with apologetics, there's a bunch of different people that are interested in it, because most of the time, in my experience, it's because they want to know how to answer questions, but aren't really equipped to do so, which is totally fine. That's where they are. I've got equipping opportunities for them.

And so, even though I serve in our apologetics ministry, I'm not there every single Monday night. I help behind the scenes to equip our team, to help organize the team, all that kind of stuff. But at the end of the day, when the actual ministry happens, I'm just another voice on a team of 22, 23 people. And so we're deploying people, and not doing it for them. We say all the time, "If you're doing the ministry for your people, then you're doing it wrong. You're in the way." And so, get out of the way. [Laughter] Stop. Get out of the way. Let them go. God's called them to do that, so …

Well, okay. Let's transition to now, there's a person who is in lay leadership in the church, and they want to get their church onboard with this kind of thing. They see the need. They're not really sure, "Who should I approach? Where should I start. God's put this burden on my heart. I've prayed about it." What advice would you give them?

The second thing I would say is, if you do see a need, then I would approach a staff person in the church and say, "Hey. I've seen this need. Here's how I've been a part of the solution, and I would love to see us maybe address this need in a certain way. I've got some ideas about it." There's also … this happens quite a bit at Watermark … there's also this sense of don't ever raise an issue if you don't have a solution. There's all kinds of people that gripe and complain about, "Well, we need to do this." And so a lot of times, especially people who are new, 'cause if you're not new to Watermark, then you know not to gripe and complain about that stuff, 'cause a lot of people will be like, "Man, why don't we have this?" And our answer is, "Why haven't you started it?"

And I would say that as long as the Lord's got you there, then it's like a Daniel leading up to his king where he's like, "Uh, you know what? Okay. I can play by whatever rules we have. That's fine. I'm flexible." You can still do your ministry. You don't need permission for that. And then I would say slowly, in appropriate ways, continue to raise the, "Hey. I feel like I've got a good solution for this." And then, at some point though, there is a time where it's like … if the church is just like, "No. We're just not gonna do that. We don't value that." Then I would say at that point, I think it's time to start looking for new leadership. Not necessarily at the church. Don't usurp people and kick people out.

But at some point there is a time where it's like, "You know what? I don't think this is optional for me, so I'm gonna shift to a local expression of the church that is gonna meet my values where they are." And I think that's totally fine. I wouldn't … don't start there. But I think, after a process of working through it, I think that's totally appropriate.

'Cause a lot of people do. They feel like … This is one of the ways that Koukl, I think, has been really helpful form me in that book, Tactics. He's like, "A lot of people feel the weight of all of Christendom on their shoulders to respond." It's like, "Oh, I've gotta have … I've got this awesome response." And he's like, "No, you just need to put a stone in their shoe." This stone in the shoe principle, where whether it's a response or the way you engage with them, where they walk away, and it's like a little … you ever have a pebble in your shoe, and you're walking, you're like, "This is annoying. I gotta get that out." And a lot of times that stone in the shoe principle is the getting it out is to come back around, to circle back around. People will come back and be like, "That's really interesting, what you said there." And so you don't give them the final answer. You might just give them a piece of the answer, and they'll come back and want more, for sure.

But those grass roots, across the table from people kind of ministries, that is apologetics. So don't think of it like debates with professional people. There's very few people who do that. And I would say that, while that is an expression of apologetics, it should not be the dominant one. The dominant one should be the conversation you have with your neighbor, the conversation you have with your coworker, the conversation you're having sitting across the table with somebody.

And if you don't know the answer, say that. Invite people into an engagement. And then there are plenty of resources to pursue the answer to that, including us, and including you guys. Email us, call us. We'd love to help.

And then, at the same time, I think a counter question to that question is … or to that statement … I'm not really ready to give up control of my life, I think I would just ask them the question like, "Well, yeah. It may be costly to give up control, but what does it cost you not to?" And most of the time people have a very pervasive sense of their own brokenness, and they realize that even though they functionally try to be God, they're not very good at it. And a lot of times, just asking those probing questions to pull that up from underneath the surface, to just go, "Hey. That's totally fine. You don't have to give up control to God. That's one of the miracles of creation is that you do have a choice. However, that choice has consequences. And oh, by the way," saying this as gently as I can, "how's that working out for you?"

I told a guy just recently, who is walking away from his faith, which is really sad. That's … Being in this position, too, you see people who do that. And I just told him in a very … he's angry at a lot of things, and the last correspondence we had I just said, "Hey, man. I love you. God loves you. He loves you more than you'll ever know. And when it gets to the point where you can't take this anymore, then we're waiting right here. We're here. You're going … The thing that makes me sad is you're going down a road that I know it's not gonna end well. And I think you probably know it, too."

And so you just love people. You love them unconditionally. You look at them and say, "Hey, man. Yeah, you don't have to give up control. But that's not gonna go well. And when it doesn't go well, I'm here for you." And that's when I think, because when the stuff hits the fan, and people do come back to you, they come back and you're able to show them, "God never left you. He's not mad at you. He's not trying to," another thing we say a lot is, "he's not trying to rip you off. He's trying to set you free. But you do have to get to the point where you've gotta let him. You gotta give up control."

Again, they're online cohorts, so there's people … I think we have … we've got 19 or 20 different states represented, and then some people in Guam, and then some random dude in Australia. It's like taking a course. I don't know. He must know somebody at Watermark. But there's people who get put into these cohorts, and then you walk through the content with a cohort online. So I'd encourage people to check that out as well. But if there's any way that we can serve the church, obviously we are a church, but if we can serve the church, equip them, resource them in any way, or just encourage them, be a sounding board for them, we'd love to do that.