Global Ministry in a Pandemic, 3 Examples: The Philippines, South Africa and India

Female Voiceover:

Welcome to The Table Podcast, where we discuss issues of God and culture. Brought to you by Dallas Theological Seminary.

Darrell Bock:

Welcome to The Table. We discuss issues of God and culture. Our topic today is the church in the midst of pandemic, and we're going to take a global perspective on this topic. So I have three guests from three very different parts of the world. Neil Ty is in the Philippines and welcome, Neil, to The Table.

Neil Ty:

Hello, Dr. Bock, and I'm glad to be here. Thank you for inviting us.

Darrell Bock:

Glad to do it. And Michael Van Andel is in South Africa. Welcome Michael.

Michael Van Andel:

Afternoon, Dr. Bock. Pleased to be here.

Darrell Bock:

Yeah. Exactly right. It's afternoon where you are, it's morning where I am, and it's evening where they are. And then Timothy Muthyala, who's in India. Welcome, Timothy.

Timothy Muthyala:

Thank you, Dr. Bock, and wonderful to be here.

Darrell Bock:

Glad to be with you. And so let's get specific in terms of locations. I've said Philippines, South Africa, and India. Where, specifically, in your country are you residing? Neil?

Neil Ty:

Currently I am residing in Quezon City, which is part of the Metro Manila complex. The city is just beside Manila proper.

Darrell Bock:

Okay. And how much of a population does Manila have? How big a city is it?

Neil Ty:

Metro Manila is composed of about maybe 15 to almost 20 million in population, not counting the streetcars and sidecars and bicycles that are roaming the streets nowadays. Maybe about 40 million altogether.

Darrell Bock:

Manila's traffic is legendary. So great. And Michael, where are you located?

Michael Van Andel:

I am based in Sandton, South Africa, which is part of the broader Johannesburg area. And I was getting ready nervous when you asked Neil about the population of Manila because it is very difficult to estimate the population of Johannesburg, and even with good estimates I may not be the person to ask for an exact count.

Darrell Bock:

Well, more or less. Do you have any idea what kind of the range is? It's about a million or so? Or is it bigger than that?

Michael Van Andel:

It's way, way bigger than that. Part of the reason it's difficult to estimate is that it just depends where you draw the lines in terms of township areas, which are I suppose similar to almost ghetto cities in the US in some ways, and very densely populated and sprawling. So it really depends how you measure Johannesburg.

Darrell Bock:

But a few million?

Michael Van Andel:

Multiple millions.

Darrell Bock:

Multiple millions. Okay. And then, Timothy, where are you in India?

Timothy Muthyala:

I am from the South India, southern part. I come from a state called Telangana, which has around 40 million people. But I live in the capital city, which is called Hyderabad, which has around 7 million people.

Darrell Bock:

Yeah, I've been there. It's an interesting, fascinating place. By the way, I just recently acquired an India cricket jersey, Timothy. So I just want you to know that I'm keeping up my cricket interests.

Timothy Muthyala:

Congratulations.

Darrell Bock:

So well, great. So let me dive in. So you're all in major metropolitan areas and obviously the church has been significantly impacted by the pandemic. I think I want to ask two questions to start off with, and that is how long have you not been meeting for, if you're still not meeting and/or, if you've opened up, how recently have you opened up and what's been the impact of the pandemic on the church, at least in your region? Be hard to speak for the country as a whole, but to the extent that you want to reflect on that. And I'm going to go in reverse order. So I'm going to start with India because India has been in the news in the last several months for the severity of the pandemic. And where do things stand right now, Timothy? And what's the situation with the church?

Timothy Muthyala:

Wow. As the world might know, we are actually anticipating the third wave of COVID. During the first wave, we almost lost around three to four months of church gatherings because the strict lockdown was in place almost for a month, I think, if my memory serves me well. But after that, during the second wave again, we had another two months of break from the church, which was totally strange for Indians because we were not prepared in other ways. Especially during the first wave, the impact was great and most of the churches did not have any clue as to how they would switch.

Timothy Muthyala:

And they developed a lot of discussion, whether we can use the internet-based churches, or whether… Some people thought that we have to gather at any cost. So they were trying to gather even during the pandemic because they felt probably it's a challenge for a religiosity, so we should stand up for the challenge, kind of thinking among some. But that's a minority, I would say. Yeah, it was the strangest situation and we were in lockdown for a long time. And for many weeks we couldn't gather as a church. After the second wave, we started to gather only since last three weeks.

Darrell Bock:

But you're anticipating the possibility that you might have to lock down again, right?

Timothy Muthyala:

Yes. Second or third weeks of August is when people are expecting the spike for the third time.

Darrell Bock:

Wow. Um-

Timothy Muthyala:

Then-

Darrell Bock:

Go ahead. I sorry.

Timothy Muthyala:

I was just going to say, but we are not sure whether they would impose a lockdown like they were doing it earlier, but there might be some restrictions on travel and things like that. We are not sure if they would opt for a complete lockdown.

Darrell Bock:

And of course, one of the challenges in India is I assume that a vaccination process is barely underway or at least has not impacted that many people?

Timothy Muthyala:

Yes. According to the government stats, around 20% of people have got at least the first shot of vaccines. But it's still very low with the kind of number that we have. So vaccine preventing the third wave, it may not be possible because not many people are vaccinated right now. But it is underway, it is underway.

Darrell Bock:

Yeah, right. And of course, for those of you who aren't aware, India is a vast country with a significant population. I understand it's over a billion now, just in the country so…

Timothy Muthyala:

1.3.

Darrell Bock:

Yeah, 1.3.

Timothy Muthyala:

1.3 billion.

Darrell Bock:

Almost as large as China, or have you passed China? It's close, I know.

Timothy Muthyala:

It's close. We haven't passed.

Darrell Bock:

Yeah. So anyway, significant. Well, let's turn to South Africa. Michael, what's the situation there, and what's the overview of what the pandemic has been like and the impact on the churches?

Michael Van Andel:

Well, we are presently in the midst of a third wave with the Delta variant, and churches are once again closed. Inter-provincial travel isn't allowed, with certain caveats, certain types of business travel and whatnot, but no leisure travel and so forth. We have had various different lockdowns, beginning from about March or April last year. So, at times it hasn't been possible for churches to meet at all. At other times attendance has been limited to 50 or 100 people. And at one stage, maybe 50% of venue sizes. So, there's really been ebbs and flows, but church meeting still hasn't gone back to normal. As I said, not meeting at all at the moment. And when people do meet it's required that you wear masks and apply social distancing.

Michael Van Andel:

So, I'd say it's been quite tough for people to connect, especially in larger congregations, firstly. And secondly, I mentioned the township areas. There are a lot of churches in those kinds of areas that simply don't have resources in terms of bandwidth to actually meet electronically. And in fact, it's virtually impossible to socially distance in some of those areas, and people are reliant on community interactions. So there's really been different challenges depending on whether you're in a more affluent area or in less affluent areas and just depending on how high infections are in that particular area. But things have definitely not gone back to normal. And Darrell, as I mentioned to you, we've had a lot of generalized anarchy and looting in South Africa in the past week or so, and that's added to the complexity of the crisis.

Darrell Bock:

And now to the Philippines, Neil. Well, wait. Let me ask Michael one other question. And what's the status of vaccinations in the country, Michael?

Michael Van Andel:

I'd say probably between 7 and 8% of people have received at least one dose now. I actually received my first vaccination dose yesterday, after waiting in a line for five hours. In terms of people who have received first and second vaccinations, that's probably about 2.5%. I hope that's right. But I think it's approximately-

Darrell Bock:

So not very much vaccination yet. I'm curious, which vaccine did you get? Do you know?

Michael Van Andel:

I received the Pfizer vaccine.

Darrell Bock:

Okay. So we're Pfizer brothers. And Neil, situation in the Philippines and the status of vaccination in the country?

Neil Ty:

Since March of 2020, kids are not allowed… Below 16 years old and 65 years above, they're not allowed to go out of their premises because of this pandemic. And the government has imposed a lot of restrictions, which has affected a lot of church meetings and gatherings. Recently, the cases have been coming down here in the Philippines and so government has started to open up. And just a week ago, the government just allowed kids from five years above to leave their premises to go anywhere they like. But of course, this is outdoors. For most, they're not allowed to go in, much more in churches. If it's indoors, kids are not allowed. So this has affected a lot of families from going to church. Recently, the government allows about 30% of capacity for churches to gather. So there's still a lot of churches that don't meet because people are generally scared of getting infected over here. So since March 2020 until now, it's like many people haven't gone to church, physically, here in the Philippines.

Darrell Bock:

Now obviously, for all of you, part of the issue here is obviously if you shut down a church and can't meet in a building, then the question becomes what is the alternative? And so I want to walk through that. And of course, obviously, the primary alternative that at least exists in the United States is to meet digitally through Zoom or its equivalent, and that assumes a pretty extensive digital capability.

Darrell Bock:

So I'd like to walk through kind of the situation in each of your countries from that standpoint. And Neil, I'll start with you in the Philippines. I just imagine that, except in maybe significant metro areas, this might be a little bit of a challenge because you not only have the availability of the digital means, but the way in which internet works in each of the countries where you pay for the amount of data that you use and using Zoom or something like that because it's often video, et cetera, is expensive for people. Is that correct?

Neil Ty:

That's very true. For a country that survives or lives by about $10 a day for the normal folks here, it is tough for them to add on to their data plan. So it's a big challenge for the poor people to be able to gain access into online churches. Generally, almost all churches here have gone online. And I've spoken to some of my friends. They said that the outskirts, especially those with no internet access, they have not gone to church since the lockdown last year, 2020. So many people have not gone to church in general.

Darrell Bock:

So highly disruptive.

Neil Ty:

High disruptive. That's true.

Darrell Bock:

Yeah. Interesting. South Africa, Michael, what's the situation there when it comes to access and the expense of doing so for people? And obviously, this depends on whether you're in the cities or in the townships. And when we talk about townships, we just might describe a little bit about what's involved in a township area. Michael?

Michael Van Andel:

Sure. So in terms of the first part of what you said, it really does depend on area and levels of affluence. We have, I'd say, limited examples of free public wifi. So a lot of people are on pay-as-you-go data plans. For more affluent churches, there has been the possibility of moving to Zoom or other equivalent communication platform.

Michael Van Andel:

I think one interesting challenge that has come up for various congregations is that a lot of large congregations here are really dependent on hype and having a certain type of a musical band experience and getting an atmosphere together which does not necessarily translate well into a Zoom type of platform. So I think, maybe in the medium term, that is something good in that people in leadership might be challenged to think about what their priorities ought to be in terms of ministry.

Michael Van Andel:

On the flip side, I think a lot of people who maybe were on the outskirts of attending a local congregation and who may be sporadic and that kind of thing, it's been pretty easy for them just to disengage and drop off from regular attendance.

Michael Van Andel:

In the township areas, which you asked me to describe, almost always these are areas that are a remnant of the apartheid era, where nonwhite populations, primarily, were aggregated according to racial classifications, often in very densely populated areas. But there are different racial groupings. And so townships would sometimes take on the characteristic of that particular language grouping, cultural grouping, and so forth.

Michael Van Andel:

But also a lot of people don't have permanent homes. So there's a lot of informal dwellings in various places like that, which is not dissimilar to what you have in India and the Philippines. When we come to township areas, I'd say things like Zoom and video connections are simply impossible in many instances. Both because of the nature of devices, but also the fact that, as Neil was saying in the Philippines, it just would add too much cost and we don't always have the fastest internet access.

Michael Van Andel:

So in those kind of areas, some of the congregations are doing things like WhatsApp voice messages, coupled with sending certain sermon notes, via WhatsApp grouping or Telegram or something like that. So people are trying to continue with the work of serving the Lord and ministering to people, but there are many practical needs as well in township areas that simply can't be met via internet platforms. And because of the densely-populated nature of the area, as I said earlier, let alone social distancing, sometimes there isn't running water. So it's all well and good to tell people to be careful and to wash hands and those kinds of things, but we really live in a country where they are marked contrasts between those who have reasonable employment and certain people who just struggle to get by.

Darrell Bock:

Yeah. I just remember on some of the drives that we've taken through South Africa going by the town systems, or in some cases into them, the amount of what I'll just all independent wiring that goes on, that connects some of the homes… corrugated steel is oftentimes what a wall of, of a home would be, that kind of thing. And so the disruption… We've talked about disruption in general, but the disruption particularly in the poor areas is really intense. And the ability to actually have a functional church is really challenging. We've had, of course, Neil, who we know. Henry, we've had as a guest talking about ministry in the townships. At some point, I'd love to get him on The Table and talk about the challenge of ministry in the townships.

Darrell Bock:

But again, the bottom line is the same as with Neil: highly disruptive. And I agree with you totally, Michael, that the one thing that doesn't translate very well in an internet environment and in a Zoom environment for a church is the worship and the music, and the way in which the music and the worship as kind of a group exercise gets experienced in a church building. You just can't replicate that very straightforwardly in a Zoom environment. That's, I think, one of the challenges people have. Go ahead.

Michael Van Andel:

One last observation, which just occurred to me whilst you are summarizing, is that I'd say a lot of the people in township areas are those who are more reliant on day-labor types of jobs. For example, working in the hospitality industry or working as cleaners. And as companies scale back and people are not using office space and others are really reluctant to travel, or aren't allowed by law to travel at certain times, those are also generally the people who are affected the most. So the type of ministry that already was taking place, where people were quite dependent on the community and so forth, that has only been amplified because of the crisis, and further by some of the looting and rioting and anarchy that's taken place in the last week.

Darrell Bock:

Yeah. Yeah. Of course, you've had the political disruption of having a former president be convicted of corruption, and so that's impacted the environment there as well. Let's talk about India, Timothy. We've heard two stories. I wonder how similar or dissimilar it is from what we've been describing?

Timothy Muthyala:

Yeah. I think it is quite similar to what's happening in the other parts of the world. Even here we had difficulty, especially, with technology and phones that would hold such a technology, like Zoom. And usually, a younger generation is more prone to use smartphones, which can hold the apps like Zoom. And most of the other folks did not have the privilege of such gadgets. So that was one issue that we faced. And in my observation, randomly, I think there was only 30 to 40% of people of the total congregation we're actually able to attend some form of online service. We had Zoom services, but also we recorded that and posted it on YouTube for people to access at a different time. But the length of the service was also an issue because people had only limited data on their phones. I think usually it was holding up to 45 minutes or so, but sometimes our services are long and there was this problem.

Timothy Muthyala:

And the wifi connectivity and other things, they are also so poor. And so I remember instances where I was preaching and I had to stop because power was gone or internet was gone for some time. So this definitely disrupts the mood of worship. And already we have a lot of limitations, but through internet and lack of the use of technology or proper technology, I think it added to the problem.

Timothy Muthyala:

And purchasing data is expensive here. Not everybody would want to have that always on their phones. And now with children also turning towards online education, that started to compete with that. So people wanted more data on their phones or on other gadgets. And yeah, so that was something that we saw, more younger people who are ready for such services.

Timothy Muthyala:

And almost 60% of our congregation was without church. They did not attend any form of service during this lockdown. And whenever there was an opportunity, they were longing to get back to church and get back to fellowship. So we felt very bad because we are unable to reach these folks who are always were used to go to church and for them it is a very meaningful moment of the week. So they are unable to have that.

Timothy Muthyala:

And people express their desire to come back to the church. And they said, "We really want to be in the church and want to worship the Lord and give thanks to the Lord for… Especially after they recovered from COVID, they longed for fellowship and they longed to share testimonies. But we had to wait for a long time for that to happen.

Timothy Muthyala:

Moving forward, if there is another wave and multiple waves coming ahead, then, yeah, we have to see how we can actually work with this situation.

Darrell Bock:

Yeah. I mean, I think it's a real challenge. I'm thinking about… Here, obviously, in the states, most everyone is connected. Many people will have plans where they're not paying for the size of data. They're just renting from month to month and they just slow you down if you go over your limit, that kind of thing. So it's a very different digital environment here and you can stay connected, and people were meeting weekly.

Darrell Bock:

And now the challenge for the American church is you've got people who've gotten used to meeting in church online, and getting them back into the services, now that they've opened up, has become the challenge for some people, because a lot of people like attending church kind of on their own schedule. So we've got that; we're facing that problem.

Darrell Bock:

But it sounds like what we're dealing with in most of these other countries is not that situation. And I suspect that a lot of churches are having to think through what the situation is going to be like on the other side. With so many people disconnected for so long to church, what does that mean? So how are church leaders thinking about that particular challenge, the idea of when we do open up, what's going to happen in terms of how many people have we lost because they've been disconnected for so long? Timothy, what is the anticipation of that situation in India?

Timothy Muthyala:

There is one problem, unique problem, that we faced especially in our city, was migration. Because of the COVID situation, many people wanted to go back to their native places from the cities to which they migrated for work. That's one way, that people have moved away from the city itself, so congregation is effected through that. And it looks like some folks, like in US, are used to online platform and they are most comfortable there and they want to stay there. With the fear that another wave might come in, so they just want to stay away from church.

Timothy Muthyala:

But most of the congregation is still anticipating and looking forward for physical gatherings and they just want to come. They just want to have that experience in the group, so they are looking forward to it. That's what we've been noticing. Yeah. Not very sure how church would look like if the situation continues to recur. So far, we're always thinking about getting back to normal. But if this becomes the new normal, then how are we going to tackle it is definitely a challenge for Indian church, I would say.

Darrell Bock:

South Africa, Michael?

Michael Van Andel:

It's a good question. As I was saying earlier about people who are more on the outskirts of church attendance, I think devoted followers of Christ have continued to look for ways to engage. But in some instances, some of the congregations will just have a different mix of people who actually come back after all this time off. There are people who have been reaching out to local churches and to other ministries, like the one I'm involved in, and they may start going to church for the first time at the end of this pandemic. But I do think that the composition of congregations will be somewhat different, at least to what it's been.

Michael Van Andel:

I also think, in a South African context, it's somewhat unclear how reopening plans will progress. In other words, as the vaccine rollout continues, might it be a situation where a church is reopened to 25% and then 50% and so forth.

Michael Van Andel:

In some ways, mega-church-type of congregations have more restrictions on being able to meet for longer than some of the smaller congregations who can satisfy quantity specifications, attendee specifications by government.

Michael Van Andel:

I think finally, in terms of what you were saying about people, the musical expression part of worship services, perhaps some people are starting to think more holistically about worshiping God, including ministry of the Word, how they live, interactions with others, with congregational musical expression, being a part of that, but not being equivalent to worship such that music equals worship. That worship embraces all of life and is core to what it is in terms of being a Christian. And if we have not been able to meet and have the same corporate singing experience, that's something people are longing for. And they're also longing for interaction with others, speaking for myself, even where I've been able to attend church gatherings, it's not the same when people are nervous and often looking to disperse more rapidly, wearing masks. It's harder to recognize people.

Michael Van Andel:

So I think people, especially singles, elderly people, are missing a lot of those social interactions, particularly in a church context, but more broadly in a societal context. So that loneliness issue is a very real one. And exactly how that all gets worked out when some people are vaccinated and others aren't and there's still a general suspicion, that is a little unclear.

Darrell Bock:

Yeah. And I should have mentioned early on that Timothy and Neil teach in their respective countries. And in some cases pastor. And then Michael is connected with an organization called Truth Walk, which is a parachurch organization that encourages Bible studies in businesses and arranges conferences for Bible studies for churches in South Africa. In fact, I'm in the midst of a multi-week session with them, Zooming from the United States, on the Book of Acts. So different ministries, but a wide array of experiences.

Darrell Bock:

Neil, so the challenge for the churches that haven't… You said they haven't really been meeting since March of 2020, so this is well over a year now. What's the impact in terms of what churches are either expecting on the other end or what they're seeing now?

Neil Ty:

Yes. The hard part this, I spoke to a friend of mine who is a local pastor and he mentioned to me that several pastors struggle as well because of this pandemic, because no church is meeting up, their finances are suffering, so they have to leave the ministry to look for another job. So the question here is if the church goes back to normal, how many pastors do we still have here in the Philippines who can serve in this capacity? And serving the Philippines as the pastor is almost like making a vow to poverty, so it's a tough job here.

Neil Ty:

And the second thing I've noticed is home churches have sprouted up. I think our families have realized that, since we can go out, we can come together for a season. I live with my parents together with my family. And many families here are… multi-families are staying together in the homes. And so in some sense, before the pandemic, Christians go to church, non-Christians stay home. But because Christians are now staying home, they invite their perhaps Christian family members and even non-Christian family members to join worship. So this has become a wonderful ministry. The early church started in homes and I think this is becoming a wonderful ministry for Christians to penetrate the gospel through their homes.

Neil Ty:

And I think the church was not ready for home churches or for head of families to lead their family for Christ. So I think this is something that the church needs to be aware of, moving from physical to home church and raising up the head of the families to shepherd their families for Christ.

Darrell Bock:

Interesting. One last question, go around, and this will be the wrap-up. I'm interested to see, I want you to put on your prediction hat. Okay? I won't turn you into a prophet; I won't give you that much promotion. But put on your ability to predict. And what do you think will be the challenges if and when we come out of the pandemic. In other words, what will churches face? Neil, you've already alluded to one of them, and that is how many pastors are actually going to be left who are going to be prepared to pastor? What other challenges do you see for the church there in the Philippines as the turnaround happens?

Neil Ty:

I think for the community or the non-Christian world out there, how many would want to come to church as well? Because we are in this major scare worldwide. Everybody's scared to go out or even to meet with people or mingle with people. And so it's like before you could just go out in the streets and share the gospel. And so people are now afraid of mingling with other people because of social distancing.

Neil Ty:

So I think that the major challenge is, how do we reach the non-Christian world out there with the gospel? You can't even get into their homes. You can't even meet them. So how do we utilize this social technology to reach them, to bring the gospel to them? That's another challenge. Perhaps churches need to find other ways to connect with the social realm around them, with the community around them.

Neil Ty:

And recently there has been a movement, socially here in the country, for public or community pantry because the government is not able to provide enough funds for people in lockdown. So the communities themselves arranged themselves in such a way that you could donate some food or some food items and people can line up and get some food item out of it.

Neil Ty:

And one of my friends, he decided to talk to the local town folks to say that, can we volunteer ourselves to help out and even talk to people about Christ. Because generally Philippinos are very religious, so they allowed these Christians to come and talk to them while they lineup to get their community pantry. So I think that's another way that the church can do, is to mingle with society and to meet people where they are, and to help meet their needs as well.

Darrell Bock:

Michael, south Africa. Put on your prognostication cap and where do you think things are going and what are the challenges?

Michael Van Andel:

Well, you mentioned Truth Walk, and you know that we're a discipleship ministry, so we work with scholars like yourself. We work with Bible literacy initiatives amongst business people, and that's continued via Zoom because people have access to Zoom. And then the third aspect of Truth Walk is trying to work with colleges and people serving township communities, and connecting them with discerning, discipled business people who can help to mobilize resources, whether it be books, financial, and so forth.

Michael Van Andel:

I think that in some areas it possibly isn't desirable to go back to what was the status quo before, because I think a lot of churches have not taken the discipleship mandate as seriously as they ought to have done. Perhaps Bible reading, Bible exposition has not been as prevalent in making and maturing disciples as it ought to have been. So I would hope that, at least in more solid congregations and churches, that people are really longing for substantive answers, interactions; the biblical-theological equipment to process some of these things, to grieve and not just have faith that everything is going to be hunky-dory all the time and that the gospel is a road to riches or whatever else it may be.

Michael Van Andel:

Hopefully, there will be some long-term positive impact from that. I think South Africa… Well, I know South Africa for a long time has struggled with having an insufficient number of trained pastoral leaders, whether that's formal theological training or more informal type of training. That situation was already problematic here before COVID. We continue to work to try and play our little part in that.

Michael Van Andel:

I think that it will take time to see church buildings, particularly in more suburban areas, back to the capacity crowds that they may have been used to. I think there will be an overhang in terms of less budgetary resources being available to some of these congregations. Probably like Neil was saying, I think in some instances people realized that it's not so much about the building, which at present is largely being unused, but it's about community and people. And a large part of what people are missing are those passing interactions that take place in the midst of all the other elements of a corporate church service.

Michael Van Andel:

So I think people will be eager for deeper interactions once those are possible. But it will take time, possibly quite a long time in an emerging market environment like ours, where you will have a situation where some are vaccinated, some are not, and people continue to be nervous. And there probably will be a stage where questions will have to be wrestled with about what level of risk is permissible in the midst of loving others and being available to others and to what extent do you cloister away because you're scared of a resurfacing of the virus or some infection once you've already been vaccinated. So I think we're going to be in this for a lot longer than the US and Europe and other places like that, and I'm guessing the same is true for India and the Philippines.

Darrell Bock:

Timothy, India? Put on your prognostication cap; what do you think the other side of the pandemic looks like and the challenges that are associated with it?

Timothy Muthyala:

Yeah. One thing, we'll be sure that is we cannot undo the online explosion that is happening. So we may need to think long-term with respect to the online facilities also.

Timothy Muthyala:

With respect to offline, probably this pandemic has given an opportunity to reach out to new groups of people, like brother Neil was saying. It gave opportunity to take the church into the homes of people. And usually in Indian set-up, there would be one or two people attending the church, and most of them would not be coming or they are not believers. So in such setups, I feel this disruption has actually worked out for good, so that people who are feeling the stigma to come to church can actually access the church without going to the church physically. So that way I think it is positive.

Timothy Muthyala:

The aspect of house churches and some form of devotions happening at home is something new that we are seeing. Every home has some prayer time happening. And the aspect of discipleship and personal evangelism seems to be kicking in. We used to do street preaching, handing out the pamphlets and things like that. But now, because of the issues that are emerging, there is more viability for personal interactions concerning faith. So I see that happening more and more as we move forward, one-on-one interactions, personal evangelism, and a quality discipleship time would happen in future. We've been missing, I guess, because of the organized church setups [inaudible 00:46:33] the church has become the normal way of life for Christian. But now that has disrupted and you are looking at more.

Timothy Muthyala:

So other things that I feel we'll continue is definitely education is one. In India, only few pastors or few mega-churches were present online before, but now everybody is online. So one problem that I see going forward is, with the explosion of information on internet, people are exposed to everything, from good quality Bible expositions to heretical teaching. So there is a danger of being exposed to everything on the internet. So there's that danger we see. And maybe some young people might think… Especially, there is this tendency I see that's growing among the young people that they now have the access to listen to Tony Evans, Dr. Charles Swindoll, [inaudible 00:47:46] so they don't want to go to their normal church pastors who are reciting. So things like that are happening.

Timothy Muthyala:

And with respect to college eduction, now we have access to Dr. Bock. See, now you are accessible to South African audience, even though you are in US with your Zoom. So I think it's going to change a lot, especially the way we are doing education and even the churches. Some of it I see as promising, but definitely it has its own challenges. But some of it I think is very good in the sense of bringing people together, in the sense of reaching new people, in the sense of accessing the best resources possible.

Timothy Muthyala:

So one issue that I always felt, even when I was in US, was I felt US had more resources in terms of people who are educated or books or things like that, educational institutions. But now with the COVID, I feel most of the resources there, if they are things like lectures or faculty, are available so people can do online courses. So things like this seem to be very promising to me. Yeah. To cut down the story, I would say it would be a mixture of challenges and also a lot of benefits I see going forward, Dr. Bock.

Darrell Bock:

Well, I want to thank you all for kind of giving us a glimpse; three snapshots of what's going on in very different parts of the world, with some similarities and some differences in each case. So thank you, Neil, Michael, and Timothy, for helping us understand how the pandemic is happening in different parts of the world. We really appreciate your willingness to be a part of The Table today.

Darrell Bock:

And for those of you who are watching, we thank you for being a part of The Table. We hope you'll join us again soon and please subscribe to The Table. If you're getting this, all you have to do is go back to where you got on and you can subscribe to The Table and you'll automatically get this every week when we release on a Tuesday. So thank you for being with us and we hope you'll join us again soon.

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