How Influencers Become Moral Authority

Warrior in Pink: A Story of Cancer Community and the God Who Comforts by Vivian Mabuni

Open Hands, Willing Heart: Discover the Joy of Saying Yes to God by Vivian Mabuni

The WELL Summit

Camp Well

The Social Dilemma on NetFlix

Opinion: The Empty Religions of Instagram by Leigh Stein in the New York Times

Lore Ferguson @lowewilbert on Instagram

AND Campaign

The Truth’s Table Podcast

Bill Hendricks:

My name is Bill Hendricks. I'm the Executive Director for Christian Leadership at The Hendricks Center. And I want to welcome you to The Table podcast, where we discuss issues of God and culture. Between 2009 and 2019, the Pew Research Center documented that the portion of the population that they describe as nones, that is those who have no affiliation with any religion, rose 9%. And a vast majority of those nones are millennials. In a March 5th 2021 New York Times opinion article, writer Lee Stein pointed out that many of the millennials who have turned their backs on religion have nonetheless found a different kind of clergy, what they call personal growth influencers. They offer nones, she said, permission, validation and community on demand at a time when it's nearly impossible to share community in person. And in writing her article, Lee raised the provocative question, how did influencers become our moral authorities? We want to discuss that question today with two women who are eminently qualified to speak into this issue. Let me introduce first Vivian Mabuni.

Vivian Mabuni:

It's Mabuni. Yes.

Bill Hendricks:

Thank you. Thank you. Vivian Mabuni who contributes to kingdom by teaching and speaking, and also by writing what she considers an extension of teaching. She has two books, Warrior in Pink: A Story of Cancer Community and the God Who Comforts. I love that title. And also Open Hands, Willing Heart: Discover the Joy of Saying Yes to God. She is a blogger and podcaster. She's married to Darrin and together they have served on staff with Cru for over 30 years at Berkeley and UCLA, and the Mabunis are parents to two… I'm sorry, three 20 something children. Vivian, welcome to The Table Podcast.

Vivian Mabuni:

Thank you so much for having me.

Bill Hendricks:

And I'd also like to introduce Jenn Jett Barrett, who wants to help people live out the wisdom of something Walt Disney summarized this way: "First, think. Second, dream. Third, believe. And finally, dare." She is a frequent speaker at events for women, couples and teams. She hosts the WELL Summit, which is a gathering for women who sit in the tension between feeling too much and not enough. And she also leads Camp Well, which is a four-day soul care retreat in the mountains of Colorado. On top of all that, she conducts Enneagram workshops because she herself is a seven. Jenn lives in Northwest Arkansas, married to her best friend. Jenn it's so good to have you on The Table Podcast this afternoon.

Jenn Jett Barrett:

It's an honor. Thank you so much.

Bill Hendricks:

So let's dive into this question of how did influencers become our moral authorities? Both of you are in the social media space quite a bit. What have you observed about how that space has grown and captured so much attention? And I might point out as the article does, so many of these folks who are influenced are in fact women and millennial women. Jenn, you're a millennial. Speak into that, if you will.

Jenn Jett Barrett:

I will correct you on that. I think I'm just outside millennial range, but I will attempt to speak to that. I've been thinking about this question and considering how since the beginning of time in the garden, there was a temptation to fulfill self. And I think that this is nothing new. I think it's just a new medium and we can see it through the history of time, and our phones are the new medium of fulfilling self and getting self. What will make us feel better? What will give us power? What will give us wisdom? What will give us knowledge? It's just the next iteration of what is out there that feeds the need to feed self. And I think that everything taken out of moderation becomes an addiction, and it is the thing that we are fighting in this generation, is the addiction of phone.

Bill Hendricks:

Vivian, what's your observation on how this phenomenon has grown so much?

Vivian Mabuni:

What's so fascinating to me is how the addiction piece that Jenn brings up is so true that if you've ever watched the Netflix documentary on the Social Experiment, they said that there are two times that people use the term users. Users are either drug addicts, or they are users of social media. So there's definitely a dopamine hit that takes place with the likes and all of us can fall prey to that. And that is one piece of what's going on. And I think increasingly as we have navigated this pandemic, I think the numbers are only increasing due to isolation and not being able to have a space to really be interacting with one another. So the fact that we are grieving so many losses in isolation, I think adds to this pressure to try to find connection somehow, but it's not a satisfying connection.

Vivian Mabuni:

So even though in that article, it's talking about this on demand connection piece. It's honestly not a real connection in real times. It's not that you can't have friends who you meet over social media, but nothing replaces face to face, breaking bread, sharing a meal, being in each other's homes, that that kind of connection is the place that the Lord uses to heal. It's Acts 2. I mean, we see how over and over Jesus modeled, the disciples modeled, the church models what it looks like to be in relationship and to experience wholeness and healing. And I think social media is not a replacement to those true needs that God has infused into each of us.

Bill Hendricks:

Yeah, Vivian, I was going to say the pandemic, which began in 2020 and is still with us and really who knows how long that's going to linger in this world. It seems to me it did a couple things. It took away two of the church's greatest strategies, you'd say, or tools. One was hospitality and the other is the power of presence, which obviously go hand in hand. And the things that you just described are very much dependent on the ability to meet together in person, to touch each other, to hear each other face to face and see each other face to face and to break bread together. And it seemed like the pandemic just quickly neutered that. And to be honest, in many ways, the church was caught flat-footed in terms of its ability to even talk with each other over the internet. Many churches had to learn how to do that, whereas the culture was ahead on that. They already had lots of people blogging, podcasting, Zooming, et cetera. Your thoughts about how the church rebounds from that surely eventually we'll get back together, but in the meantime.

Vivian Mabuni:

I think you bring up a great point, Bill, that it did lag a little bit. And I have spoken to several pastors who were putting in inordinate amount of time, trying to figure out how to do live or the cameras and pretaping the sermons and preaching even into a camera rather than to a live audience is a very different type of teaching. The learning curve is steep and there was an opportunity I think, to really bring in the millennials and those who are digital natives to really be part of the solution. Often I think the church can miss some of those opportunities because we tend to think of the older generation as the knowledgeable ones and we have opportunities to bridge. So I'm not saying that we need to follow necessarily the leadership of all the youth, but they do have a lot to offer.

Vivian Mabuni:

And I think the future can be very bright as we think about this upcoming generation who are digital natives and how the gospel can actually go out to far more when we utilize these tools that are at our disposal for kingdom building. However, and in addition to that, what you are underscoring is that we really are in a place where we can speak into the importance and I hope we never forget how vital it is that we spend time with one another. I think people are thinking nowadays, "Well, you know what? Working from home, it's easier. I don't have to commute. It saves the company a lot of money. We've all adapted here and there to this new way." Even attendance at church. It'll be interesting to see how that happen. People could go to church in any part of the world on any given Sunday with the option of Zoom. So it'll be interesting to see how and if, and to what degree people return to in-person worship together.

Bill Hendricks:

Well, and I think both of you talked about how the worship of self or the addiction to self is very powerful. And in a way, if doing church becomes something you can do at any time and you can do it without worrying about where geography has gone, thanks to the internet, to some extent you then make religion a consumer item. It's something that you choose to do when you choose to do it, and again, we're back to, "I'm in charge of myself. I make all the decisions here." Jenn, I know you've had your retreats and so forth. I I'm curious how you have tried to navigate doing soul care retreats when people are having to quarantine.

Jenn Jett Barrett:

Yeah, we did have to cancel number eight last April, but we saw a desperation for women to get back together physically. Our waiting list is crazy and I just think it's a reflection of this chasm that has been created in this pandemic. Something unique is that when we're at this particular location in the mountains, there's no cell service, there's no wifi in most of the property. So they get this very hands-on experience as to what life would be like without social media. And we hear all the time, "I wish when I went home, this wasn't the case. I wish I didn't have…" Which technically we can turn it off. That is what is true.

Jenn Jett Barrett:

We do control our use of social media, and it is that fight because it's become an addiction in so many ways, but it's been interesting because it has affirmed everything we're talking about. It has shown this desperate need for community and in-person, and it has also highlighted and underscored what happens, how we feel emotionally, spiritually, physically, mentally, when social media has not consumed a majority of our lives. We get a case study for four days in the mountains without cell service and wifi. It's pretty profound.

Bill Hendricks:

Well, I think you're pointing out something that's counterintuitive because from one point of view, to go on a soul care retreat, it's all, "I'm now paying attention to myself, right?" But the reality is that a lot of what's driving this addiction to self is that people don't know themselves. I mean, they literally do not know themselves. They're strangers to themselves and by tuning into different things on Instagram or whatever, there's a feeling like "I'm getting, again, that dopamine hit." It's feeling good. It's making me feel better, but I still don't really know me and I'm not even aware of that. And what you're doing is taking people, "Yes, we're going to focus on you for a season. So that in fact, once you know yourself, as C.S. Lewis says, you begin to forget yourself and instead, you're bearing the image of another person, namely the Lord."

Jenn Jett Barrett:

Yeah. I've been thinking so much about Psalm 139, and the end of that psalm, the prayer, "Search me O God and know me, test me and know my thoughts. See if there's any offensive way in me and lead me in the way everlasting." When you create margin, which a huge part of that is turning off things like social media, when you create margin for the Holy Spirit to speak in and search you, then I feel like He gently takes your face and turns it back towards the Lord and exactly what you were talking about. Then your reflection becomes that of Jesus, instead of the reflection of yourself in front of this piece of technology that's just feeding this cycle instead of pointing you vertically to Jesus. And there is a component. I mean, I think it can be taken and abused in a way, if we're not careful. They look at self.

Jenn Jett Barrett:

But when we look inward, that is when we see the things that are turning us away from Jesus. When we see the sin, when we see the grief, when we see the lies and fears holding us in bondage, that's what's keeping our faces away from Jesus. And I think oftentimes social media keeps feeding and fueling those things like lies and fears and negative comparison, and it's this search for something that will take that pain away. And oftentimes, it's just slight detour away from truth, but something appealing enough that it becomes the gospel.

Vivian Mabuni:

Can I jump into-

Bill Hendricks:

Go ahead, Vivian.

Vivian Mabuni:

… some thoughts there. Yes. I think what Jen is describing to me, social media serves like fast food. You drive through, you pick up something, it's not actually satisfying. You cannot hold a candle to a home cooked meal and an incredible beef stew that has been just simmering all day long and the smell and the breaking of homemade bread, or a salad pick from the garden. There's just not a replacement, but it's quick and it's a quick fix. But the interesting thing too, in the midst of even how you started off, Bill, explaining the nones, I think the ease of being able to look to these social media influencers and giving them a lot more weight than even the work that it requires to take time to read the scriptures, to reflect, to sit before the Lord, to allow the Holy Spirit to convict us of our sin and our need for the Lord, that quick fix.

Vivian Mabuni:

And coupled with this idea that if you have a really huge following and platform, that somehow you become the moral expert on all fields. So you have young teenagers who have millions of followers on TikTok or any number of social media platforms, and they become these experts. And what is so interesting to me right now is that because this generation is so visual, if your church website uses the wrong font, the content can be completely solid, but it loses credibility. And your Instagram feed, if you don't know how to put the pictures in correctly, and they look off centered, you lose credibility. So the content may be excellent, but the way that the judgment is passed from not only our youth, but from everyone is so fascinating to me that this authority comes from these numbers that sometimes are purchased, and they are also coming from a place of just external beauty.

Vivian Mabuni:

So the content may just completely be fast food content, but if you aren't making it, if you are just looking at it from an external point of view, that's the stuff that keeps getting shared and re-shared and liked and liked and liked. So it's really the social experiment that we're in right now is really fascinating. So on one hand, there's nothing new under the sun, but this particular point in time, we are in a place where I think there's just a lot of deconstructing and confusion and where authority lies is often in places that may not actually hold a lot of substance.

Bill Hendricks:

So you're describing the content can be filling, but it's not nourishing, certainly not to your soul. And you're picking up on a point here that this article by Leigh Stein picked up. "The women we've chosen as our moral leaders aren't challenging us to ask the fundamental questions that leaders of faith have been wrestling with for thousands of years, why are we here? Why do we suffer? What should we believe in beyond the limits of our puny selfhood?" Those are pretty deep questions. Vivian, I want to come back to you because I perceive from your first book that you have a PhD in margin having spent margin to contemplate some of the deeper questions of life, because if you're indeed a cancer survivor, I have some personal experience with that. And once you hear that C word, your life will never be the same. That's a one-way door that you're now in a new reality. I'd be curious to get your thoughts on how that experience informs the path that you've chosen today, or that you've been called to today.

Vivian Mabuni:

Yeah. That I don't think anyone prepares to hear the phone call from the doctor that says you have cancer. I don't think anyone can prepare for that kind of a call and a derailing. And to me, that has only solidified even more the importance of the foundations of our faith. When life doesn't make sense, all the more, we need to be able to draw from deep wells and the faithfulness of God's character, His unchanging word. I mean, the truth is I'm a cancer survivor and I'm grateful every day for the privilege. And I understand on one hand that I am here still because for whatever reason, the Lord has works for me that He prepared beforehand that I should walk in. There's a sense of, "I understand why I'm here." The thing that I go back to, as it relates to this conversation in particular is recognizing that our generation and North American Christianity, we don't like to deal with pain. We are not very accustomed to pain.

Vivian Mabuni:

We do want to… If we can get the fast food, we will get it because we just don't know what it's like to fast. We don't know what it's like to go without. It's just so much easier to fill the emptiness with the

food or the purchasing or the buying or the social media or the scrolling. It's like we just are not comfortable with our pain. And I think that a lot of what we're seeing now through this pandemic, through our circumstances is that we are not accustomed to dealing with pain. So the cancer journey for me exposed me to how much I… Even my framework by which I live my faith out, it's not about the outcome. Our object is not the… The goal is not the outcome. The goal is Jesus, but a lot of times we still have this prosperity gospel, like we put in the prayers and we get out the answers and we expect that our life will be pain-free if we are faithful to the Lord. And yes, it's true that we reap what we sow, and those are principles, but we're not guaranteed a pain-free life.

Bill Hendricks:

Powerful. Jenn, how might the church learn from these influencers in terms of how it communicates, how it speaks into people's lives and particularly with Millennials and Gen Z's and and the rising generations. Obviously there's a phenomenon at play here, and while it has some dark sides to it, the fact that it is so powerful and effective seems like there ought to be some lessons out of it that we might perhaps benefit from. Your thoughts?

Jenn Jett Barrett:

Yeah. I mean, I talked to Vivian about this last week. It's that tension that we sit in, that I sit in having an Instagram account. What role, if a role do I play? Part of me just wants to delete and just get out of there because part of me doesn't want to be a part of something that is causing people to stumble or be misled or causing an addiction. And yet technology if used wisely, and like you said, going into the space, these people already are, what is my responsibility? To adhere very strictly to the gospel, to double and triple check and pray over. I mean, I have had multiple things that I have sent before I post something on social media, to multiple people in my life to check my theology, or could this be misleading? I am fully aware of the weight of words and the presence of words in the life of people that I don't even know.

Jenn Jett Barrett:

It's one thing to get to sit face-to-face in a discipleship relationship and work through the nuance of things and ask questions and have feedback, but to just post something, and there is a responsibility that we have, if we're going to engage in that space. I think also having an understanding of who the people in our congregation are following, the people in our small group, the people we're discipling, who are they following? Who are they learning from and "being discipled" by? I think us understanding that's really important. And I think the church, I think biblical literacy is it's always been important, but I think we have really got to equip our congregation, our bodies of believers with biblical literacy, the spiritual disciplines that have been around for 2000 years. We got to stay true to those things. Culture is always going to shift and change, and there will always be something else vying for the attention of our people, vying for the attention of believers.

Jenn Jett Barrett:

Again, we've seen it since the beginning of time. So I think us staying faithful and obedient to teaching biblical literacy, helping our body understand that the spiritual disciplines… I love what you said, Vivian, this understanding. I think for me, my burden right now is helping equip and disciple a healthy theology of grief and suffering. I am an Enneagram Seven. Anything I can do to avoid pain, I will do it. It has been personally the most transformative thing in my life, the last four years to understand the theology of pain and suffering. And I think it is a very counter-culture teaching right now in a world that wants to

feel good and for pain to be avoided, and for instant gratification, I think that's a really good point, Vivian, that you bring up. So just going back, faithfully teaching the basics of our faith.

Bill Hendricks:

Jenn, you mentioned Psalm 139 earlier, and I think it's true of Psalm 139, and frankly, so many of the Psalms, particularly of David. In Psalm 139, from one point of view, it sounds like David's talking all about himself, but what he's actually doing in talking about himself, he's always pointing and referencing everything back to God. There is a way for us to be mindful of self, but always in relation to God and that as we use social media and other forms of reaching people and talking to people, it's not that it's bad to talk about self and to help people reflect on themselves, but always to bring it back to how does yourself relate to God, because ultimately that's the reference point.

Jenn Jett Barrett:

Yeah. I talked about trauma last week on a social media post and one of the things, again that I hold myself accountable to for me personally, is where do I lead people to scripture at the end of this? I want to make sure that anytime I am talking about the work of knowing myself so that I may know God. I love that you brought up the Psalms and how much David wrestles with that over and over, but you see him even go to the depths of despair, walk through confession, which is a look at self, and then going to point his eyes to Jesus, to the Lord, and finding the freedom from that shame through the lens of repentance. It's a journey for him over and over again that he keeps moving on.

Jenn Jett Barrett:

I think right now people are getting stuck in the middle of that, focusing on self and then getting into a shame spiral without the understanding of the Gospel, the work of the Gospel. I think we just have a responsibility to do that work with people we are entrusted with, the people we disciple, the people we're face-to-face with is the complete work of the Gospel and walking them through that.

Bill Hendricks:

Vivian, you've been working with Cru for 30 years on two of the major universities in our country. I'm curious what you've seen, is there any shift in college students' thinking around this whole matter of where they take their cues from?

Vivian Mabuni:

Yes. There have been so many shifts and I actually hadn't been on a college campus in a number of years, but I've spoken at many conferences and have conversations regularly with college aged students and recent graduates. And the change that takes place in the life of a college student itself is remarkable. When you go in as a 17 or 18 year old and you graduate in your 20 somethings, these days it's not guaranteed that it's a four year thing. So the change that takes place just in personal growth and development is remarkable. This whole new generation, however, they are so smart in ways that I don't think we are or were at that age. They're exposed to so much more. Even junior high kids are exposed to so much more. They get their news in real time.

Vivian Mabuni:

I'm not a very big sports person, but I can know the scores of all the major things just using Twitter. I can be up to speed on and I can actually sound like I know what I'm talking about, if I just repeat some of

these tweets, right? So this generation on one hand knows what's going on, and this is the biggest challenge. Especially to your listeners who are pastoring churches or in any kind of leadership, our youth are very aware of the social issues of the day. And when the church does not address them, the church loses credibility. Little C, big C. This is where the use of social media in terms of informing people about things is unmatched. So what would have normally taken more time to get information dispersed, it's now in the moment. This last year…

Vivian Mabuni:

I'm an Asian American. So in a podcast, you may not know that, but the rise in anti-Asian hate crimes and anti-Asian racism has been so significant. In any of my community, there's been so much hurt. I was grateful that through social media, my friend, like Jenn could know what was going on and reassure me that here in Arkansas, "I commit to standing with you, and if I witness anything like this that happens, I'm going to do something about it." Well, it wasn't like I picked up the phone and called Jenn. It really was through social media that she was then informed of what was going on. So there are benefits, and I think the more that we understand that as leaders that we can speak to the real topics of our day, and that is going to help our youth to feel like we can bring together the real time issues along with the scriptures and help navigate. And that's where the disconnect has happened, but I think that we can be intentional about bringing it together so that the church retains the credibility that it has.

Bill Hendricks:

Well, our time is just about gone. I have one final question for both of you quite quickly. So who are the social influencers that you listen to?

Jenn Jett Barrett:

I think a couple of my favorite people, one is Lore Ferguson, and she is a brilliant writer and she writes with vulnerability and honesty. When she is asked a question, she does these Q&A sometimes where she lets her followers ask her questions, and if there's something too personal or not appropriate, she's honest and draws a line and draws a boundary. And I just appreciate how she engages with her followers responsibly. She's probably… And the AND Campaign, I've enjoyed following then just the conviction and compassion they have for both sides of issues and policies. I think it's been a healthy and challenging way for me to view what's going on in the world right now.

Bill Hendricks:

That's great. How about you Vivian?

Vivian Mabuni:

Now I've been really seeking to expand the people that I listen to and hear from. I think that often we can get locked into our own echo chambers. So I've been intentionally trying to diversify my social media feeds and to learn from a number of different people. I really appreciate the women who teach the Truth's Table podcast, three African-American women, and it's by African-American women for African-American women. But as a non-black woman, I'm learning a lot about black history and black culture and the challenges because they don't have to try to explain things. They're just being who they are, and that's been really helpful. Again, women like Latasha Morrison and Be the Bridge, I think there's just some great resources out there that has been helpful to expand my understanding. I think that it's important in these days to stretch a little bit more and push ourselves outside of our comfort zones. And

I don't think that… I think even in my marriage to my husband, we're going to be celebrating 30 years next month.

Bill Hendricks:

Congratulations.

Vivian Mabuni:

Thank you. It's a miracle. And in that, we don't agree a hundred percent on all things theological or political or otherwise. In fact and often, we are in opposite spectrums, but it is good for me to be exposed to people who think differently than me. I'm always wanting to increase the types of voices I hear from, especially from communities of color.

Bill Hendricks:

Well, this is great. Vivian Mabuni, Jenn Jett, thank you so much for being with us today on The Table Podcast. And if you would like to go a little bit deeper into this topic, we encourage you to sign up for Table Plus, an expanded service where we take the issues that we're discussing and go a little more in detail with our guests. So subscribe to Table Plus, and we've got more content to come. But for The Table Podcast, I'm Bill Hendricks. Thank you.