How Jewish is Christianity?

MA in Jewish Studies at DTS  

Darrell Bock: 

Welcome to The Table, where we discuss issues of God and culture. I'm Darrell Bock, executive director for cultural engagement at the Hendricks Center at Dallas Theological Seminary, and my guest today is Vladimir Pikman, who is a longtime friend. We've been co-laborers in ministry at Chosen People Ministries, where he serves as the European director. Would that be the correct… What's the exact correct title? 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Oh, there is no title. I'm just Vladimir, just I'm serving. It's difficult with titles there. 

Darrell Bock: 

He's not going to go there, but he helps oversee the European operation at Chosen People Ministries, among other things. He also is serving and in the process of introducing a program here in Jewish studies. And so, our topic today is the relationship of the Bible to its Jewish background, it's Jewish context, as well as why someone might be interested in studying in an area that's entitled Jewish studies in a seminary context. So with that, it's the really quick introduction. I could say a lot more, and he knows that, about Vladimir and his family who… I watched him raise his kids. Let's just dive in. First question I always ask someone who's a guest is, how did a nice guy like you get into a deal like this? Talk about how you came to the Lord and why your interest in Jewish ministries? 

Vladimir Pikman: 

I was born and raised in the former Soviet Union in Kiev, Ukraine, as the third generation of the Jewish atheists. So, nobody in my family believed in God, even through the third generation, although I didn't know anybody who was not Jewish in my extended family. So, everybody was Jewish and everybody was an atheist. In the Soviet Union, that was probably the way to go for Jewish people to survive. 

Darrell Bock: 

Atheists are common in the former Soviet Union? 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Very much so, and not just common, it was imposed and it was bad enough for us to be Jewish. Nobody wanted more troubles by believing in God or something like this. So, I grew up experiencing much antisemitism as a teenager and then in my early student years. The Soviet Union, as I was a student, began to collapse and the doors went open for the Jewish people to immigrate and I became very strong Zionist and moved to Israel. 

And in Israel, I had my first encounter with God at the Wailing Wall in the old city of Jerusalem, so-called also Western Wall. I came there for the first time and I was so impressed by the idea that I reached the destination as a Zionist, as a Jew who was longing to be in Israel among other Jewish people in safety, without any antisemitism. It was the feeling like I reached the destination, and then I remember I came to the wall, I put my hand on the wall, and I believed in God. It was like electricity struck me. So, God became very real to me, but not Jesus at that time, just the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's a good starting place. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Absolutely, and then a couple months later, I was crazy enough to ask God for his guidance and direction for my life, also using the Wailing Wall, again, a note with my question to God. 

Darrell Bock: 

Anyone who goes there and knows what you're talking about. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

So, the next day he sent me back to Ukraine, as I thought only for a year to finish my university. I didn't like the idea, but I promised him that I will obey in my question and that I will never complain about this. Well, I broke my promise regarding complaining, big deal. On the way- 

Darrell Bock: 

You launched into the psalter, you lamented the direction injustice of God and then relied on him anyway. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Well, I wouldn't describe it that way back then, but it's just like it's bad. Anyway, there was no direct connection between Israel and Ukraine or Kiev at that time. There was still Soviet Union and Israel and there were no diplomatic relationship. So, my journey was normally to Cyprus, from Cyprus fly to Moscow, and then train to Kiev, something like this. On the ship from Haifa to Cyprus at night, two men approached me like backpackers asked what language I speak the best. I said Russian, and they gave me the New Testament in Russian language. And for me it was just like, "What? I'm Jewish. The New Testament is not for me. It's like the book for Gentiles and maybe antisemitic book, but not the Jewish book." I didn't know at that time that it's a bestseller of Jewish literature, written by Jewish people, and written to the Jewish people. But anyway, I loved books so much that I couldn't say no to a book, so I took it just because it was a book. I might say if it would be a Quran, I would take it as well just- 

Darrell Bock: 

Out of the curiosity. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Right, I just love books. It's more than curiosity, I love books, and that was, I would say sort of like a hint in a certain direction. I looked through the New Testament trying to find out how the Jewish people might live at that time. So for whatever reason, considering the book to be for the Gentiles, I still consider that as possible hint to Jewish history of that time. As I came back to Kiev, I met my old Jewish friend who meanwhile became a believer in Jesus in a very conservative evangelical type of church. He started talking to me about Jesus like, "You are a sinner. You go to hell, believe in Jesus, otherwise you're toast," something like that. I didn't like the message, and also I didn't like the idea that I should believe in Jesus. I'm Jewish and Jesus is not for me. I told him, "You got crazy, but I will never believe in Jesus because I'm Jewish." 

And he was arguing his cause and I was refusing that. At the same time, I was jealous. His life sort of changed in the way I was missing in my life. For example, he was confident, forgiving, peaceful, sort of… He enjoyed his life and I was just anxious about many things, nervous. Can you imagine, as I had to make… I was in trouble. I was going to him telling, "Would you pray to your Jesus that your Jesus would help me with this problem?" I didn't like this. I tried to convince him that he's wrong, for him to be the same miserable as I am. Well, probably I'm exaggerating, but anyway- 

Darrell Bock: 

You need to be miserable. That was your message? 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Exactly, and I was jealous. I envied him to some extent, and I couldn't believe like he did at that time, so why not to convince him that he believes wrong? At least we're on the same page then, and I was reading through the Old Testament, Hebrew Bible, but at that time it was in Russian. I didn't know… Well, my Hebrew was not sufficient to read it in Hebrew at that time, but still I was consulting different Jewish literature and materials that he gave to me. And one year later I lost this competition because I could see that Jesus is the promised Messiah from the Bible, but I couldn't make my decision to follow him because I was concerned, what will other Jewish people say? My parents and friends, and I saw that there are only two Jewish men who consider Jesus to be the Messiah, my crazy friend and I, and only three months later, God put me in a situation, I needed him. 

And for the first time in my life, I knew that I'm a sinner. I knew that everybody is a sinner, except me. I considered myself a Jewish angel, never killed anybody, never committed any crime or something like that, so pride and joy of my parents, probably more pride than joy, but anyway, at that time I suddenly saw that I am in trouble because everything what was good in me, it was sort of like hypocrisy, trying to please for others to think good about me. 

And I never committed anything like crime, not because I was good, but because I was afraid of the consequences. I felt like filthy of all this, and I remember that night at home, I was on my knees praying to God in the name of Yeshua, Jesus, for me to be forgiven. And it was not important for me any longer what will other Jewish people say. I remember that after that prayer, my life changed radically, and it included my profession, it included what I'm doing in my life, my passions. So, instantly on the very next day, I got immersed into the ministry, to the Jew first and also to everybody else, and I'm immersed in this ministry 30 years later. 

Darrell Bock: 

You ended up connecting to Chosen People where you served for a very, very long time. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

The connection was the very next day after this prayer at night, I came to a messianic congregation in Kiev that was planned by Chosen People Ministries that's the beginning of the story 

Darrell Bock: 

That's where the connection- 

Vladimir Pikman: 

And then I went for training and then I joined and ministered with them for a number of years. 

Darrell Bock: 

A couple of decades, right? 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Mm-hmm. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, how'd you end up connected to the Jewish studies program here at Dallas? 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Well, Jewish studies… No, first how I got connected to Dallas Theological Seminary through a professor of Dallas Theological Seminary, Dr. Darrell Bock actually. After 10 years in full-time ministry after planting several congregations, starting ministry in several countries, I decided to take a sabbatical and it seemed to be a good idea to do it as ThM in Dallas Theological Seminary. So I came, both of us, my wife and I were graduated- 

Darrell Bock: 

And your two very, very little children. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

We came with little daughters that were semi adopted, and so we both graduated 2006, moved back to Germany… Our ministry base in Germany 

Darrell Bock: 

So, your wife took the program here as well? 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Yes, I graduated with ThM and she graduated with MABL, Bible of Jesus and linguistics, yes. 

Darrell Bock: 

And then eventually we started to invite you back to address the Jewish background of the Bible, et cetera, and that has grown into Jewish studies, so talk about that part of the story. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Yes, absolutely. 2014, we came here for a sabbatical, again, as a missionary in residence with, at that time, old missions department. And I was overwhelmed by the interest and relevance of everything related to Jewish studies, Jewish background, and Jewish people here on campus in Dallas, on theological seminary. I was absolutely impressed, so I couldn't walk 10 steps from campus back then without anybody starting talking to me, asking questions, interacting on that. So, it became evident to me, as well as to the leadership of Dallas Theological Seminary, that it's a right moment and season to start Jewish studies at Dallas Theological Seminary. Besides, my passion since many years was to offer a degree in Jewish studies in Europe, particularly in Germany, to strengthen the messianic movement and Jewish outreach there. And we started a school called Messianic Jewish Theological Academy, and our two schools, Dallas Theological Seminary and the academy in Germany, we offer this degree together here in US, but also in Europe. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, one piece of the puzzle that we haven't specified for people, so they can connect the dots is you currently serve as the leading rabbi of a messianic congregation in Berlin. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Mm-hmm. 

Darrell Bock: 

And you've been doing that now what, for more than 10 years? 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Well, I am founding senior rabbi of that congregation. We started this congregation, 1995. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, that's 28 years now. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

I feel mature. 

Darrell Bock: 

You're still young. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Yeah, right. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, let's talk about Jewish studies and Jewish studies background, but I want to pick up one strand of what you said before we do that, and that is you talked about experiencing antisemitism. Most people don't understand antisemitism. So, could you talk a little bit about what that is and what that looks like? 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Antisemitism is when people feel, think, or assume something negative about Jewish people as people. So you are Jewish, there is something wrong with you. You are different than I am and I don't like you, and then there are tons of conspiracy theories, what Jewish people do and how they control the world and stuff, and from the medieval period, from the centuries and centuries Jewish people are surrounded by different accusations of doing wrong and it leads to a negative attitude toward Jewish people. Sometimes it's related to what people say or think. Sometimes it comes to physical violence, depending in what country and culture. 

Darrell Bock: 

So when you experienced this, you sensed that the moment someone found out you were Jewish, there was a reaction in a pushing away basically? 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Oh, as other children in my class, in the school, they found out that I'm Jewish… And being Jewish was clearly ethnic, at the time. It has nothing to do with religion, but it was written in all our paperwork, like everywhere, first name, middle name, father's name, date of birth, ethnicity, there were Russians, Ukrainians, all possible, and Jewish or Hebrew. And as the children in my class saw that, oh, I got in trouble. So they were telling me, "Go away to your Israel." They were saying names and words, bad words about me, just I was even sometimes beaten as a Jew. Again, it has nothing to do with Jewish observance, with Judaism, with religion. It was just because I was ethnically Jewish. I belong to the people of Israel. 

Darrell Bock: 

And so, you weren't one of them? 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Yes, right. Then later in churches, I found out that there is another type of anti-Jewish sentiment that I would call probably anti-Jewish. Not anti-Judaism, but some people antisemitic, some can be anti-Jewish. They don't mind Jewish people, everything is fine with them, but everything Jewish is sort of like- 

Darrell Bock: 

A problem. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

A problem, bad, sort of like anti-Jesus or whatever in Christian churches sometimes. 

Darrell Bock: 

And this probably manifests itself most obviously in the assumption that everything about Judaism rotates around legalism that we should not embrace, as opposed to thinking through what it meant, what the role that the law had played in Judaism, because God gave the law to the Jewish people. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

It's probably one part of the reason, but also Christianity, when we take the Bible, it's like for us and suddenly there are Jewish people, there are some things that we don't understand and we don't want to practice or whatever, and it's naturally probably to oppose to that. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, the Jewish studies program is designed to help people understand actually to one degree, one, to understand the Jewish people and understand the nature of Jewish ethnicity and faith, I put them both together. And then the second element is to appreciate how immersed in a Jewish background and context the claim that Jesus is the Messiah, not just of people in general, but particularly of Israel and what that means. So, talk about what you hope to accomplish, what the goals are in a Jewish studies program. Why should a good, Protestant evangelical seminary, you know what I'm going to ask, have a Jewish studies program? 

Vladimir Pikman: 

That's an excellent question. There are so many reasons. One reason, God cares for the Jewish people, never abandoned Jewish people, and I bless those who bless you, and actually to care for the Jewish people, it's something what brings blessing and what Jesus would do, actually. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, you're alluding to obviously Genesis 12:3. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Genesis 12:3. 

Darrell Bock: 

and the Abrahamic covenant. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Right, but it's also what Jesus would do because he cared for the Jewish people- 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, he was Jewish. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Exactly, we'll get there, but as I did… I spoke in chapel at DTS before COVID. The topic was A Tiny Minority with a Great Significance because that's the Jewish people, and it's good that Dallas Seminary have this program. Besides, the theology of Dallas Theological Seminary sees very clearly the future of Israel, not just the past, but also the future and even embracing the current present importance of the Jewish people, so it's a perfect fit actually. It's long overdue to have it at Dallas Theological Seminary, also coming to theology in all possible theologies, Jesus is Jewish. Everybody knows that, but it's not just history, it's relevant. Jesus, as we say, he's 100% divine and he's 100% Jewish. Seriously, I just think of this, we are saved by Jewish blood, not just by blood of Jesus, whether it's very general, we're saved by Jewish blood because his blood was Jewish blood. 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, and again, back to Genesis 12:3, it's through your seed that the world is going to be blessed. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Absolutely, so Jesus is 100% Jewish by flesh and it should be relevant. His humanity matters for our life, otherwise, what's the point? And his Jewish humanity, so his Jewishness is not to separate from his humanity. 

Darrell Bock: 

It's part of the story. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Exactly, so the New Testament, I would say it's a very Jewish book. It's more Jewish than the Old Testament even, talking rabbinically Jewish because we see sort of resemblance between the New Testament and I would say a little bit later, rabbinic tradition, but still the kind of thinking, even the kind of jokes of fun, making fun is the same. It's very important in order to understand the Bible, not just the Old Testament, but even primarily the New Testament, it's important to have Jewish studies and understand the Jewish people. 

Another thing, the gospel or the salvation is the good news for the Jews first, not just first. It's the good news for the Jews, in a sense. If you take the Jewish part of the gospel away, there is no gospel actually. Jesus came to restore the people of Israel, it was he what we see in the prophets, by taking their sin away and also with assumption or just with this theological idea and life idea that the restoration of Israel means the redemption for the whole world. It goes together. We now live in a different time, but still, the end result is the full restoration of Israel and restoration of the world. What I mean just regarding the gospel, the church needs to acknowledge and understand that the gospel is in its essence, the good news for the Jews of Israel's restoration. If you take it out, you will never get the full story of the redemption or the full story of why Jesus came. It's like a bagel. The gospel is a bagel, there is a hole in it. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, think about it this way, this is a way of elaborating the point that you're making. In Ephesians 2, or in Ephesians 3, take your pick, there is the idea that the reconciliation that God has brought into the world involves Jews and Gentiles. If you don't have Jews in there, you don't have the reconciliation. That's part of the program that God has in mind, and that's an explication of why God comes and saves by his grace. It comes right after 2:1-10 in which we have what I call the Protestant creed, "Salvation is by faith through grace, not of works lest anyone should boast." And actually, that's the theme of Romans. The point of Romans 1-3 is to say, here's why Gentiles need the gospel, that's chapter one, here's why Jewish people need the gospel, that's chapter two, "For all of sin and fall short of the glory of God," that's the beginning of chapter three, and Jesus is the answer, that's the end of chapter three. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

And in chapter 11, he says that if their rejection is such a blessing for the Gentiles, how much more… He's talking about Jewish people, how much more will be their full restoration or full redemption- 

Darrell Bock: 

Looking to the future, right? 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Exactly, as the life from the dead. So, actually the ultimate goal of God in this plan, and the plan related to the gospel and Jesus' salvific work is to restore Israel, and it's like life from the dead for the world. 

Darrell Bock: 

And that restoration of Israel completes the corporate reconciliation that God is also in the business of doing through Jesus. Sometimes we think about salvation strictly in individualistic terms, but now we're thinking it in corporate terms. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Exactly. 

Darrell Bock: 

And I don't get that full restoration, and just think about this for a second, I can't have shalom unless it exists between people. So, if I think about it strictly individually, I'm cutting off one of the most important results of what salvation is supposed to bring, and that's shalom and reconciliation between peoples who are formerly estranged. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Right, and that's something what also very deep in a Jewish mindset, what Christian in the Western world should learn, salvation is not just about you, it's about you, but not just, it's about us. It includes… The Catholic Church say that… Simplifying, there is no salvation outside the church. It all depends what church they mean. I might disagree with that, but according to the Bible, you are saved as a part of the body, so the corporate and individual goes together. 

Darrell Bock: 

You're safe to go into the body and become a part of the body and interact with people- 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Exactly. 

Darrell Bock: 

… Minister- 

Vladimir Pikman: 

With other words, there is no safe person outside of the body. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yep, fair enough, so that's the background. We're recording during the High Holidays. So, let's talk a little bit about some features of Judaism that people perhaps may not be familiar with, but that are important to understanding one, Jewish people and two, in some cases some things that are going on in the Bible. So, let's start with the High Holidays. Talk about the High Holidays and why it's important to a Jewish person. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Well, we just talked about corporate, about the group, about the people as a whole. The holidays according to the Torah and what we see in the Bible, they are special appointments of God with people. I personally can meet with God any day, any time, any second, particularly through Yeshua, Jesus, because of his sacrifice for my sin. But as the people, as the nation, we meet with God, and those are called the times of appointments for the holy convocation, we meet with God in a certain times that he ordained for that. So God, he's not bounded by the time, but he created time and calendar for us to celebrate it. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, Jewish people have a sacred calendar, and this is something they do corporately as a community together because they're observing it together at the same time with a sense of an awareness that that's going on. So, what are the special times within what we call the holy days or the High Holidays? 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Well, special times, just if you… I would recommend everybody who works, read for example, Leviticus chapter 23. It's all described there. It starts with Passover, then the early first fruit when Jesus rose from the dead actually, I believe so, and then Shavuot, Pentecost, and then for the full High Holidays, including Feast of Trumpets, also known as Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year, and then Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, and the Feast of Tabernacles. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, those three holidays are congregated together, and so- 

Vladimir Pikman: 

There are three pilgrimage holidays according to the Torah, it's Passover, it's Shavuot, and it's Sukkot. 

Darrell Bock: 

So a difficult question perhaps, but more or less, what time of year are we talking about for these holidays? 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Spring and fall. 

Darrell Bock: 

So which goes to which, I'm trying to draw a map for people. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Passover and Pentecost, Shavuot, are in the fall, are in the- 

Darrell Bock: 

Spring. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

… In the spring, sorry, and then Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur and Sukkot in the fall. In between, there are also some feasts that are not directly mentioned in the Torah as God's appointed times, but I would consider them biblical. One of them is Purim. It's the book of Esther, as it's described there, and another is the Feast of Hanukkah. It's not in the normal conventional Hebrew Bible or Protestant Bible- 

Darrell Bock: 

Because it came later. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Well, because it's in the book of Maccabees, but what we know, Jesus celebrated it. That's why I say that it's fully biblical because in John chapter 10, verse 22, we read about this feast and Jesus was speaking to something… Preaching at this- 

Darrell Bock: 

I tell people, Hanukkah's a very important holiday because it represents the victory of the Israelite people at a time when Antiochus Epiphanes was trying to wipe Judaism off the face of the earth, and had they lost that war, we wouldn't have had Judaism. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Absolutely. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, they're celebrating really their preservation in many ways. Actually, what's interesting is Purim does the same kind of thing. It's a feast that celebrates the preservation of the Jewish people in a period of high persecution. We were talking about antisemitism earlier. It's been around for a long time. So, some of these feasts are celebrating the activity or the provision of God. First fruits is probably a celebration to the provision of God, some of them provide the spiritual provision of God, Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, which is a very special day observed normally with a fast is another key holiday, and then we've got these feasts that really celebrate the fact that God has been with us and protected us and preserved us even in the midst of extreme opposition in the world. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Yes, and all these feasts, I would say they're spiritual, they're also physical, but spiritual and physical goes hand-in-hand, and I would say all the holidays, they relate to God salvific activity, in the people of Israel, and as result in the whole world. Hanukah, as you rightly mentioned, it's salvation from assimilation, so from dispersing and full destruction of the Jewish people in culturally, faith wise, religion wise. Purim is more about bodily destruction of the Jewish people, they should be killed, but also other feasts like Passover, exodus from Egypt, and Shavuot, giving the Torah. 

And then the Feast of Trumpets, the provision of God in the desert and his great signs, and then the Yom Kippur, the atonement that God was doing for people not to die in the desert entirely, for us to have future. And the Feast of Tabernacles, that is actually was pointing at the God's provision in the desert. He sheltered us there, but when we see the cycle of this feast, it's like coming back constantly. For example, Jesus died as a Passover lamb for us to have the Exodus, the spirit of God came on the feast of Pentecost, Shavuot. We believe that God will gather us to himself, that instead of the judgment, there will be atonement for the Jewish people in the future, and Sukkot represents the kingdom to come, but also Hanukkah, we see Hanukkah also in Matthew chapter 28, and Jesus was talking about the future. He was referring to the events of Hanukkah. So, there is another Hanukkah coming in the future. Hanukkah has a prophetic significance, each feast does. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, why would someone be interested in Jewish studies? Why should someone be interested? We started talking about why you have the program, but why should someone… I guess maybe the way to ask this question is, why should a Gentile be interested in Jewish studies? I could see why a messianic believer might be interested in Jewish studies, that seems transparent to me, but why would a gentile be interested or should be interested in Jewish studies 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Based upon what I mentioned previously. First, you will know Jesus better, you will know the gospel better, you can understand the Bible better, and you will know God better. In what way? God never abandoned the Jewish people and he is working in the Jewish history. I don't believe that he stepped out of this history. He was navigating them before Jesus' event. He was navigating them toward first coming of the Messiah, and now in the last 2,000 years, he's navigating them using different historic events, but also using rabbis. I'm not talking of God's inspired like the scripture, but he's navigating and preparing the people for the second coming of the Messiah. We can understand God and his plan better when we study even the Jewish history and Jewish theology and in making how it was made. We're learning how God is functioning through and he's chosen people Israel. So, I think it's relevant for us to understand God better, Jesus better, the gospel better, the Bible better. If it's not enough advantages, I can keep going. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's at least a few. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Absolutely. 

Darrell Bock: 

So if someone comes to do Jewish studies here, what are the types of things they're going to be studying, what's in the program? 

Vladimir Pikman: 

In the program itself, you will study through the entire Bible, you will take all the Bible exposition classes. So, you will start with Genesis through Revelation. You will be proficient and professional in theology, particularly even in Christian theology, because you will take all the systematic theology classes. You will- 

Darrell Bock: 

So, it has the core master's program in it? 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Yes, the core master program, you will get the best of that. You will be proficient to read the Bible in Hebrew because it's like four semesters of Hebrew, and you can take electives in Jewish studies from the pool of more than 20 different electives, according to your specific area of professional ministry or life goals and desires or areas of interest. And so, you will be professionally equipped to live and minister not just among Jewish people, but among also other nations. Understanding what I mentioned, Jesus, the gospel, God, and the Bible betters through the Jewish perspective. 

Darrell Bock: 

So without naming all the 20 options that exist, what kinds of courses are in that pool? In other words, I guess I could say, doing all the Bible and doing all the theology, every DTS student does that. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Mm-hmm. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, that's something that's shared across the board, whether you're in Jewish studies or not. What makes Jewish studies, Jewish studies? And by that I mean, what are the kinds of courses that you're taking in that elective pool? 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Great question. For example, ministry in Jewish context to learn how Jewish people actually… How it works, just to understand the Jewish context better. It's like overview- 

Darrell Bock: 

How they see their origin, et cetera. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

It's like overview from the history through religious practices, apologetic methods of how to talk, so all it's overarching, and then it goes to more specific with different classes like Jewish history or rabbinic literature and how it functions, not just you list the books, you learn how the rabbis created their theology. It's fascinating. I don't mean that you need to embrace it, but at least you can understand how it functions, it's enriching, or the history of relationship of the church and Judaism, the messianic movement, the messianic prophecies, Second Temple Judaism, traditional Jewish lifestyles, including how to share Messiahs through Jewish traditions or how to see the Messiahs through Jewish traditions and holy days. I can keep going. It's like everything what you might find helpful, important, and relevant in real realm of Jewish studies, we offer that. 

Darrell Bock: 

And so, the hope is that you're better equipped to minister to the Jewish community, to reach out to the Jewish community, to understand the Jewish community, and to engage in ministry that is supportive of reaching out to Jewish people. Is that one of the goals? 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Absolutely, it's one of the goals, and I would say I'm passionate to see Jewish people coming home to their Messiah, to our Messiah, Yeshua, Jesus. And that's probably my first goal that I personally would see, but also, as I said, you will know God, Jesus, the gospel, and the Bible better. So, it's enriching spiritually. It helps to come to more maturity. That's why besides offering degree, we offer a number of seminars, Brownbags and Seders at Dallas Theological Seminary for everybody. It doesn't matter what program and what degree he or she is pursuing to learn, to get enriched, to grow in the spiritual maturity through enlarging this horizon of understanding how God works with the Jewish people and through the Jewish- 

Darrell Bock: 

So, you used a term that maybe some people don't know, it's the term Seder. Talk about what a Seder is. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Seder means order, that's approximately what Jesus did with his disciples, what is called Lord's supper. It's supper, and that's what we do. We show how Jesus might do that and we celebrate it with him. 

Darrell Bock: 

So the Seder is… How can I say this? It's the liturgy that comes with the Passover meal, would that be a way to say it? 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Yes, it's what we tell when we go out of Egypt every year during the Passover season. 

Darrell Bock: 

Oh, I had one other question. What was it? So, I often say when it comes to understanding the Bible, that the Bible is loaded with what I call cultural scripts. These cultural scripts, many of them are Jewish. They are rooted in Judaism, and if you don't understand what the cultural script is that's being evoked, you'll miss something in the passage that's going on. And so, one of my favorites is the healing of the paralytic where Jesus says directly to the paralytic, "Your sins are forgiven," and he isn't performing Yom Kippur, he's not in the temple, and there's no sacrifice. He's just simply declaring, "Your sins are forgiven." And the theologians in the audience… And theologians in the audience of the gospels are interesting because sometimes even though they don't believe some of what they're saying, they're making the right point, say, "Only God forgives sins," which frames the entire event that, how is it that Jesus as a human being could have the authority to do something only God can do? That's the cultural script that's wrapped up in the passage. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Right. 

Darrell Bock: 

If you don't know that, then you don't know that Jesus' action isn't an example of a prophet saying something for God, but he's exercising his own authority as one with divine authority, which of course is the point he makes. "You might know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins. I say to you," the paralytic, "Get up and walk." So, that's an example of cultural script. So, that's an example of the kind of thing of how the Bible is opened up by understanding Jewish backgrounds? 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Well, yes, it's important. I need to humbly tell that if somebody doesn't know the Jewish background, still he or she can be saved. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Even to understand the main messages from the Bible. 

Darrell Bock: 

Fair enough. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

But it's so much fun, joy to study the Bible, to do this discovery, what in Judaism is called uncovering what is concealed, so revealing something. It's covered, but we just uncover it and we look deeper and deeper. 

Darrell Bock: 

My metaphor for this, and it depends on what era you belong to, I guess, so I'll do this for the over 50s and under 50s, the over 50-year-olds, you just say, "It's like going from black and white to color pictures." And for under 50s, "It's like going from 320 to 4K." 

Vladimir Pikman: 

So, it's just like we need the background for us to go deeper into the Bible. 

Darrell Bock: 

To see all the nuances and all the shades of what is happening. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Listen, and if you don't know that, it's so much joy to study the Bible deeper, and yes, we do need the Jewish background of that time. 

Darrell Bock: 

Now, I forgot to ask a pretty basic question, which is, how long is the program designed for? 

Vladimir Pikman: 

It's 74 credit hours. 

Darrell Bock: 

Notice he answered that by hours and not how many years it would take to do it. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Well, because it depends. Well, if you are really, full-time student, it's 15 hours a semester. So it's what, two and a half years? 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Otherwise, if you take less, take your time, but there are some limits in time. I don't know, seven or eight years, I don't know. 

Darrell Bock: 

You have to do it within eight years, I think. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

You see? So from two years and a half, through eight years, something in this window. 

Darrell Bock: 

Very good. Well, Vladi, I thank you for coming in and talking Jewish studies with us and the Jewish background. It was certainly fascinating to hear your story. Actually, some of this I heard for the first time myself, which is interesting. And so, we wish you well with the program here at Dallas, and we thank you for the ministry that you have with us and for your taking the time to be with us here. 

Vladimir Pikman: 

Thank you, and come and join Dallas Seminary. Take advantage of this program and the seminars that we're doing. Hope to see you on campus or online. 

Darrell Bock: 

And we thank you for being a part of The Table, and we hope you'll join us again soon. If you're interested in more episodes of The Table, you can find them at voice.dts.edu/tablepodcast and we'll be glad to have your presence. We hope to see you again soon.