Is Self-Care Selfish? – Classic

Ignatius’s Practices 

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Kasey Olander: 

Welcome to the Table Podcast where we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of theology to everyday life. I'm Kasey Olander and I'm the web content specialist here at the Hendrick Center at Dallas Theological Seminary. Today, our topic is self-care. So, when you saw the term self-care in the title of the episode, you probably had one of two reactions. One thing you could have thought, there's been an unhealthy overemphasis in this area, and I'm glad they're here to put a stop to it. Or on the other hand, maybe you thought, okay, there's been a really healthy growth in this area and I'm excited that they're here to emphasize it. Well, let me just, wherever you find yourself right now, I'm going to acknowledge both extremes that self-care can become idolatry if we prioritize our own comfort at all costs. 

And at the same time, self-care is a matter of human dignity because we're made in the image of God. And so how do these seemingly disparate ideas fit together? How do we see ourselves rightly and maybe even, how do we walk the narrow road between self-indulgence and self-negligence? Here to talk about this today are two esteemed guests, Dr. Michelle Pokorny and Dr. French Jones. And Michelle Pokorny is an adjunct professor in DEdMin and DMin studies here at DTS. Michelle, thank you so much for being here today. 

Michelle Pokorny: 

Thanks for having me. 

Kasey Olander: 

Appreciate it. And then French Jones is a professor of counseling ministries here at DTS. Thanks for joining us. 

French Jones: 

Absolutely. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. So I'm looking forward to this conversation because it has been increasingly trending. I think I saw that self-help books are maybe the fastest growing categories of books on the market. A ton of people are talking about self-care. And so I guess my first question should just be what is self-care? I guess I'll start with you, Michelle. What is it that we're talking about when we say self-care? 

Michelle Pokorny: 

Yeah, great question. And there is a lot of confusion out there about what exactly we mean. I would define healthy self-care as practices that are rooted in relationship with the Lord and follow his design for human flourishing, recognizing that we're holistic beings, that there's a social dimension to our personhood, physical, mental, spiritual, emotional, all those dimensions are intertwined. And so self-care is recognizing and attending to those needs. 

Kasey Olander: 

I love that. I love that you highlighted all the different dimensions of who we are as humans. So we'll come back to that. Anything to add, French? 

French Jones: 

I would totally agree with Michelle, and because it's so multidimensional, it seems like this is an ongoing task, a responsibility for all of us, that I might be really good in one area, but really poor in another. And it requires balance in attending to our state of being and recognizing where am I falling short and how can I be better? Because if not, I think there's a consequence. Basically, you reap what you sow. And like I was reading this week in the newspaper, this study that was done about sleep in the United States, 26% of all folks in the United States only get eight hour sleep. So, so many of us are not even getting enough sleep and 25% get five hours or less. And one of the fastest ways to a psychotic break is miss three nights of sleep. And you really are walking on the edge when you cannot get the rest physically, your body needs. 

Kasey Olander: 

Isn't that fascinating? That so often throughout our day, we're thinking of everything but sleep. We're thinking of all the things we have to do, the people we have to see, and yet this is such an important part that it keeps us functioning. 

French Jones: 

Yeah, absolutely. 

Kasey Olander: 

That's fascinating. 

Michelle Pokorny: 

Lots of people think of self-care in terms of spa days or self-indulgence, some sort of pampering when really the basics of diet, food, exercise are so critical to our self-care. 

French Jones: 

That's exactly right. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. And then Michelle, can you give us your definition one more time? Because I liked all of the different facets that you hit. 

Michelle Pokorny: 

Okay. I said healthy self-care is rooted in a relationship with the Lord. So it takes a lot of discernment on those practices because they can easily tend selfish or not. So rooted in a relationship with the Lord and following his design for human flourishing, 

Kasey Olander: 

For human flourishing. And then you have physical and mental and emotional. French has jumped right into the physical dimension. So I guess we'll start there. You mentioned diet and exercise too. What else? What other habits affect our self-care or lack thereof 

Michelle Pokorny: 

Regarding physical? 

Kasey Olander: 

Mm-hmm, physical. 

Michelle Pokorny: 

Physical. Sleep was a huge one that you mentioned. Diet, exercise, getting enough sunlight. Just going outside and being in nature, having movement in nature. So many of those things, it's interesting how God has designed our bodies that have such a calming effect. Just getting enough serotonin, your endorphins when you exercise, when you move, so many of those things really can help us have a more centered self. Again, rooted in the relationship with the Lord though. 

French Jones: 

Oh, yeah. 

Kasey Olander: 

What do you mean by a centered self as opposed to self-centered, right? 

Michelle Pokorny: 

Yes, as opposed to self-centered, that's a good distinction. I guess I mean someone that is anchored in their relationship with the Lord, someone that… I have a tendency towards anxiety, and so someone that tries to anchor themselves in their relationship with the Lord that is centered in and grounded in who God is and who he's made me to be. So there's an identity piece that's involved in this whole self-care conversation as well. 

Kasey Olander: 

That's huge. Yeah. Were you going to add something? 

French Jones: 

From my perspective, I do believe it starts with the spiritual. That we need to be crystal clear that as believers, as human beings created in the image of God, this is the only body we got, and if you don't take good care of it, there will be illness or disease, we wear out. And what kind of a testimony is that? If you're constantly exhausted and sick, how can we really see our responsibility in terms of ministry or stewardship, servant-hood if we cannot do the work. And that practice, the sooner that can begin I think is really critical. 

I was fortunate to become a believer in my freshman year in college, and I had such great mentors really through Campus Crusade for Christ that spoke into my life and helped shape me in so many ways. And for us, as I was on staff with Crusade for five years, that really began with my quiet time in the morning. And to this day, I taught right down the hall here this morning, and every class I've taught for the last 30 years begins with a devotional. We're going to do that, but that's what I got when I was here 40 years ago, 47 years ago. So that's just I think, the modeling that comes and how that translates into my life that I want to pass on to others. But the physical component, I think, as well as diet and exercise. We are not angels. We don't have wings. We cannot zip here and there, but this idea of even Jesus wanting to get away from the crowds, and we have the model there, for sure. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yes. Jesus, the perfect human. 

French Jones: 

Yeah. 

Michelle Pokorny: 

Yeah. 

Kasey Olander: 

That's a great point. And I love that you brought up the college years that the earlier you start, the better your habits can be for the duration of your life. 

French Jones: 

Yes. Yes. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. College was such a formative time for me spiritually. And I, too was on staff with the campus ministry for five years, I was with BSM, Baptist Student Ministry, but that's a time when usually, students are not sleeping and eating junk and basically not doing any of the self-care things. 

French Jones: 

That's right. 

Michelle Pokorny: 

Yeah. 

Kasey Olander: 

So yeah, if you can actually change it to have that season be one of health, then that leads to the flourishing that you were talking about, Michelle, potentially for a lifetime. 

French Jones: 

Absolutely. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. So what are some of the other, and French, you transitioned us into spiritual things. What are some of the other ways that people can care for themselves spiritually? You talked about Bible reading and devotions. 

French Jones: 

Yeah. So one thing that happened with us, my wife Amy, was a business consultant for 30 years in her career, and for five years she was commuting to Atlanta and- 

Kasey Olander: 

From Dallas. 

French Jones: 

From Dallas. So every Monday morning, she would take the seven o'clock flight and come back Thursday night. And that really led us into a time of evaluating the Sabbath rest. And we did some research on that, and that absolutely revolutionized our life. And there were some major anchor points in what Sunday would look like for us. And one of them was saying no to the many wonderful invitations we got for dinner parties or go out to eat with friends. That was always a, no. It's Sunday night is staying home. One, because she's got to catch a flight at seven o'clock the next morning. And so that was a sacred day for us, for church, for worship and downtime and us-time. Sunday night would always be another aspect, was we both loved to cook and we would try new recipes, and that was a time for us in terms of connection and relaxation. 

The other thing that we instigated back in those days was we'd come together before the meal and just sitting around and we have readings, poetry, we've read through Mary Oliver's entire book called Devotions, phenomenal poet laureate for the United States, Mary Oliver, just passed away not too long ago. And so that was a way for us in terms of art and appreciation and expression, and then it bled over into us writing poetry for each other and for our friends. When we were going to be invited to a dinner party to celebrate a birthday, routinely, Amy or I will write a poem to that person- 

Kasey Olander: 

That's beautiful. 

French Jones: 

From scratch, and people roll their eyes when they hear French wrote a poem. Yeah, right. Well, we've had so much fun with that. It's just been a total joy that we get to give back in that way that is different and refreshing and kind of artsy. Mine's a little bit. But hobbies are another thing. And I think one of our hobbies for certainly is cooking, but we also enjoy hiking. So for 30 years we've gone to Colorado in the summers to do hiking. I do fly-fishing. We hunt mushrooms up there, fry them up, put them with a steak. Oh yeah, that's what I'm talking about, not the other kind. No psychedelic ones. We don't even know what those are. 

But at any rate, there's lots of ways. If you start looking for the things that make a difference for you, basically having a mindset that is awareness about needs and wants, what is going on with me? I don't need another boring meal. Okay, Jones, if you're not going to eat a boring meal, what are you going to do about it? Oh, well, I got 10 recipe books over here. I'm going to pick one and go do it tonight. Well, Amy just loves that. She's the guinea pig. But it is just fun. And I think that it's not considered work. That's the main thing. It's a joy to give to each other and to others, and certainly, we want to be a good testimony for the Lord. 

Kasey Olander: 

Right. Man, I feel like you just highlighted so many things that I want to pull out of there. One of them without knowing it, is you've highlighted a couple of our other episodes of the Table Podcast. One of them is called Sabbath for Your Soul. The other one is Why Christians Care About Art and Beauty. So thank you. 

French Jones: 

There you go. 

Kasey Olander: 

Your tip will come later. 

French Jones: 

Great. 

Kasey Olander: 

But the other thing I was going to say is, it's funny, I tried to set up this false dichotomy of, well, let's talk about physical and let's talk about spiritual. But both of you in your responses to this have talked about the physical aspects of nature being calming and having an effect on our emotions. And also, you're talking about spiritual and you're talking about things like cooking and art and things that are very embodied practices. And so I feel like it's really coming to the surface that we're integrated, complex beings and there's no getting around it. 

French Jones: 

Absolutely. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. Trying to compartmentalize. Another thing that I thought was really fascinating, you mentioned needs versus wants. How would you encourage our listener to discern between those? 

French Jones: 

Yeah, so great question. First of all, God gave us emotions. And by definition, what do emotions tell us? Emotions tell us about our needs and wants. My joy tells me that my needs and wants have been met. My anger tells me they were not met. My sadness tells me they weren't met, and I'm sad about that. And so this idea of self-awareness is really, really important because is it a need or is it a want? My emotions help me with that as I practice identifying my emotions. And early on in our marriage, my vocabulary for emotions was about five words. Good, fine, okay, bad, blah. And Amy would say, "How was your day?" I said, "Well, it's great." And she said, "Well, tell me about it." "I just did. It was fine." 

Kasey Olander: 

That was it. 

French Jones: 

And she says, "You're shutting me out." "I'm not shutting you out. You're starting a fight with me." And so we really had to deal with that because it was my issue. She wanted to be a marriage partner to me by knowing me, and I was not letting her know me. And so that practice came into my classroom where I had the guys against the girls come up with a list of emotional words, and they'd get five extra points on the midterms. So oh my gosh, you'd have thought this was all dependent on their entire graduating or not. So they had one week, and I didn't know, I thought I was going to get 25 words or 50 or what. And I turned to the girls and I said, "How many words did you get?" And they said, "283." 

Kasey Olander: 

Wow. 

French Jones: 

I said, "Oh my gosh." And I looked at the pitiful guys and I was like, but they were smirking at me. And I said, "What?" And they said, "We beat the girls." I said, "No way." And they said, "We have 333." 

Kasey Olander: 

Wow. 

Michelle Pokorny: 

Wow. 

French Jones: 

What? And the guys were dancing and jumping around and they won and high-fiving each other. And the girls were like, "Dr. Jones, we're going to make you an offer you can't refuse." I said, "Okay, try me." "We're going to take the guys list and the girls list, combine them, alphabetize them, and add new words if we can." In two weeks, I had a list of 617 words, single-spaced, six pages that year. And for every year for five years, we added 300 new words. I'd give out the list each year, we'd add three more. I got a 52-page document now of 2,200 words for emotions. So, what this tells us is if we can expand our vocabulary in regard to our emotions, we can more precisely know about our needs and wants. See? There is a difference between peace and contentment. See? And what is that? And so those are the kinds of things I think, as a believer we need to pay attention to in order to more accurately assess what is going on with me. And if I can do that for me, I can do that for you. 

Kasey Olander: 

Sure. Yeah. Maybe that builds empathy. For me to be more self-aware, that equips me for the work of ministry. And then if I understand my own emotions, maybe I can understand, oh, I would feel this in that situation. Maybe Michelle is feeling this way as well. And so Michelle, that was great about all of the emotions. How would you help people discern between needs and wants? Maybe I need to be more self-aware, but I don't want to be more self-aware, or that kind of thing. 

Michelle Pokorny: 

Yes. I don't want to see these hard things about myself sometimes. Well, going back to healthy self-care versus unhealthy self-care. And I think a lot of that goes to your motives to what is your end goal with the practice that you're going to engage in? And so is the end goal to be self-protecting or self-promoting? 

So taking a deep look within, taking that 2,200 list of emotions that you might have and what is going on within me, but all of that takes time? And so we don't really have a lot of time and space built into our normal lives for that level of reflection. And so a healthy practice that I would recommend is taking time for silence and solitude, taking time to engage in Sabbath, taking time for reflection. There's a spiritual discipline called examine where you look back over the course of the day and where did I see the Lord? You just reflect on your day, the emotions that you experienced throughout the day. And I think those things can give you indication as to, is this a need? Is this a want? Is this a healthy practice? Is this an unhealthy practice? What is my end goal in this thing? What is my desire? Is there a shadow desire that's popping up? And all of that really takes a lot of self-awareness and a lot of reflection. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. Do you have any resources for that? What questions I should ask myself or anything like that? 

Michelle Pokorny: 

Sure. There's different websites. If you just Google like Ignatius' practices and he specifically has the examine and that looks back over the day, or there's an app called Lectio 365, great app. And it helps you, it guides you through scripture, it guides you through different prayers, and then it guides you through some reflective questions about your day, and you can do it morning and night. So those type of practices that anchor you throughout the day, because we're so prone to forget, we're so prone to get busy and just hit the ground running as soon as we wake up or get our smartphones and start scrolling. And that impacts our trajectory for the day. Stopping first thing in the morning, waking up and rooting yourself in your identity in the Lord that I'm a beloved child of God, that puts you in a good mindset for the rest of your day and can help you with this discernment process that we're talking about. 

Kasey Olander: 

Right. Because maybe some of those other physical habits, you don't explicitly say, "Oh, I'm worth how many likes I have, or I'm worth how many emails I respond to." 

Michelle Pokorny: 

Right. But internally, yeah. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah, those habits are forming you in a certain way, maybe without you realizing it. 

Michelle Pokorny: 

Most of the time, without us realizing, I think our conscious awareness is not there. And so to counteract that, we have to develop these behaviors and practices and be very intentional with what we engage in on a day-to-day basis. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. And that's so helpful. So I guess, why don't we open the Bible, and this is DTS. What is it that a scripture has to say to us? I think one of the first verses that comes to mind for me is in Matthew 22, the great commandment, Jesus talks about loving the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, strength. And then he also talks about loving your neighbor as yourself. That seems to me like there's some sort of implicit love of self. He assumes that you're not hating yourself or neglecting yourself or doing any of these unhealthy behaviors that you highlighted. Do y'all have any thoughts about that or other scripture that comes to mind? 

French Jones: 

Well, Ephesians 5 and the marriage, "Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and cherishing and nourishing your own body," for no one ever hated his own body, but cherishes it. And so that whole aspect is appropriate. Now, self-love can get into selfishness and narcissism, and all of those kinds of negatives. But when we keep it in balance, especially biblically, I think that's our balance. We really want to be intentional, and that was a good word to use, Michelle, really. I think, intentional in this sense of assessing right now, what is my state of being? I need to practice that to routinely access those descriptors of what's going on now with me. 

If I am to respond to my wife's question, "How was your day?" seriously, and not just blow it off and says, "Oh, it was awful, and I don't want to talk about it," as opposed to engaging her and letting her know me. So I can also do that with her, but I need to do that for me so I can participate in that conversation. See, if I'm not doing it for me, I am just a typical guy, I think that's the problem. I've seen it in so many marriages for 35 years in my counseling practice. Guys are the worst in our culture. We don't know how to explain our state of being or open up and share our heart at an emotional level with the people that mean the most to us. We're just inept in that. We need to practice. And that's a big… You come to me for marriage counseling. That's what we're going to be working on. 

Kasey Olander: 

I feel like your highlight is so many of these things are intertwined with each other. It's not just, okay, I'm cultivating awareness for myself, but I'm also okay, empathizing with other people and able to communicate with other people in significant relationships. 

French Jones: 

Absolutely. 

Kasey Olander: 

Which then brings us closer together, which makes both of us healthier. And then, yeah, there's so many different facets that are intertwining with that. 

French Jones: 

Definitely. 

Kasey Olander: 

Any thoughts on a scripture or what French just said? 

Michelle Pokorny: 

Sure. Different scriptures that I think of, I think of John 15, which gives us a healthy… First, there's a lot of things that we learned about our own identity in that passage, Jesus calls us his friend, he calls us chosen, he calls us clean. So many things that are just these beautiful descriptors of who we are in relationship with him. But then the main thing is abide in me. Apart from me, you can do nothing. And so in this whole conversation about self-care, there's this recognition that we are finite creatures and we serve an infinite God, and apart from him, we can do nothing. So we are totally dependent upon him. And so self-care is recognizing that dependence that we have on him, as well as that interdependence upon others, that social aspect of ourself as well. So that's one thing I would add. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. And that's funny because we're finite creatures, and that was even before the fall. It's not like, oh, no, curse our limits, but that we always were meant to abide in God. That's who we are just as people. 

Michelle Pokorny: 

Yes. And Jesus models that for us as was his custom as a phrase that I see a lot in. And anytime I see that phrase, I pay attention because this is how he did life, as was his custom. And we see him sleeping, we see him taking a nap, we see him withdrawing from people. We see him engaging in the Sabbath. We see him saying, "No," we see him disappointing others, not meeting their expectations. And so there's lots of things that we learned from scripture just at the life of Christ who showed us what it meant to be fully alive, to fully flourish as a human being and to fully serve others as well. 

French Jones: 

That's right. 

Kasey Olander: 

I'm glad that you brought that up because another thing I was going to say, was Luke 9:23 is about denying yourself and taking up your cross. So how is that… Obviously we don't think that scripture contradicts itself, but how do we hold those things in tension? 

Michelle Pokorny: 

Yeah. Well, I'd say that self-care involves a lot of self-denial, for one thing. We have to be disciplined and intentional in the practices that we engage in- 

Kasey Olander: 

Oh, that's a good point. 

Michelle Pokorny: 

… For self-care. Such as yesterday, my son and I had a wonderful day at the park after school, so we got to enjoy that sunshine and just being outside and moving our bodies. And then we got home and I was like, "Well, we just had a great day relating. So I'm going to let him watch TV for a little bit and I'm going to read my book for a little bit." Because I love reading. It's one of the self-care practices that I engage in. However, him watching TV for a little bit turned in about an hour and a half because I wanted to figure out who did it, in my book. I'm almost there. The mystery's almost solved. And so that was really a selfish act on my part. Even though I consider reading as a healthy self-care practice, for me, I need to discipline it. It's got to be within a time because in that moment, I'm not serving my son by allowing him to continue to just feed himself on empty screen time. 

And so that's again, where the discernment comes in. Just the discipline, the intentionality, making sure that our practices are in line with our true highest values. And I forget what your question was actually. 

Kasey Olander: 

Well, that was great. 

Michelle Pokorny: 

Okay. Not on a rabbit trail. 

Kasey Olander: 

No, that was a really good point. We were talking about denying yourself and you're talking about self-care is a form of self-discipline because a lot of times, with the just forgetfulness or not being intentional, it's so easy to, wait a minute, how long have I been on YouTube? This is embarrassing. Where did the time go? Just that lack of self-awareness and intentionality means that we're lacking the self-discipline that might've actually cared for our souls better. 

Michelle Pokorny: 

And served others better. 

Kasey Olander: 

Right. 

Michelle Pokorny: 

Right. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. So that's a great example. 

French Jones: 

The other verse that comes to my mind is, "Out of your innermost being will flow rivers of living water," and I just think so many Christians, especially in vocational ministry, often dry up because of a lack of self-care and missionaries in particular, I started global counseling initiative in 2010 on my sabbatical, which was focused on missionary member care for missionaries overseas. It was the first time we actually did online counseling through the software that we had available to us for the purpose of counseling missionaries who did not have good resources at their location, basically. And if they had internet, we could access them through email and live high-definition, real time counseling. Unfortunately, we were six or eight years ahead of the curve and we just couldn't afford to keep doing it. And it ended up going belly-up, but we demonstrated that telehealth works or virtual Zoom calls, you name it, whatever. 

And to this day, I do those weekly in my practice and have clients in different states and this type of thing. But the idea of, out of your innermost being will flow rivers, well, sometimes, it's a desert and now, have compassion fatigue. I can't care for anybody else. I'm exhausted. I have burnout. This is what comes into play if we're not managing ourselves well and intentionally, see? And so that's just a key learning I think, from the Lord, is as we abide, he is the living water. We don't have to generate that in our own strength. We really can't. And I love that in John 15, "Apart from him, you can't do anything." 

Kasey Olander: 

That's a good point. So what are some of maybe the other dangers you highlighted, compassion fatigue and just basically, almost like getting burned out. What are some of the other dangers of neglecting to care for ourselves? 

Michelle Pokorny: 

It's funny. I studied burnout for my dissertation and I saw these areas of neglect that almost consistently led to burnout, and it was neglecting their rest, neglecting their recreation. Those activities and hobbies that you alluded to when you were talking about your Sabbath day that are restful for them and restorative, neglecting their people, meaning the people that could pour into them, they weren't neglecting the people that they were ministering to, but the people they could pour into them that they could be safe with, that they could confide in and then neglecting their means of connecting with God and so neglecting their spiritual disciplines. So repeat your question one more time. 

Kasey Olander: 

What are the other dangers? What are the maybe warning signs that you had mentioned or what are some other problems that crop up if we don't care for ourselves? 

Michelle Pokorny: 

Well, physically, it pops up often, first. Sometimes our bodies are the first thing to tell us when something's off. 

Kasey Olander: 

Which is why that self-awareness is a key piece that I even need to notice what my body's telling me. 

Michelle Pokorny: 

Exactly, exactly. Am I holding anxiety in my stomach? Am I getting a lot of headaches? Those sorts of things. That's often one of the first things that can tell you that, hey, you need to tend to your soul right now. 

Kasey Olander: 

Those are great examples because a lot of times, it's maybe easier to notice, oh, I have a headache and I can't do something else. It's easier to notice than, how am I doing spiritually in this moment? 

Michelle Pokorny: 

Or even if your irritability has gone up. One tell for me is if I start snapping at my husband a lot, he's like, "Are you stressed? You need to take a little break here." So yeah, just things like that can really give you a clue. 

Kasey Olander: 

That's very sweet of him, instead of snapping back to be like, "Are you okay?" 

Michelle Pokorny: 

Yes, he is very kind and patient. 

French Jones: 

That's great. Yeah. 

Kasey Olander: 

So I love that you highlighted all of those different dimensions. I'm sure that you could talk about burnout for a really long time then, but how would you respond to a listener who maybe thinks, those things sound a little bit frivolous? Really, recreation and hobbies? Really, I just be reading my Bible all the time. 

Michelle Pokorny: 

Good question. 

French Jones: 

Well, no, you shouldn't. God's given us work to do and that's our privilege to tend the garden. And so the opportunities that we have, we really want to be good stewards of those. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. For work and for rest. 

French Jones: 

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And my dad was a big golfer and wanted me to be a golfer forever. And finally, the weekend after I graduated with my PhD, my buddy called me up and said, "I'm going to play golf on Saturday. Do you want to join me?" And I said, "Yes. This is the first weekend I've had in six years to not have to read a book or write a paper or whatever." And we went to Garland Fairway over there just a average course, nothing fancy. And I had the best time of my life. And I came back and Amy said, "How was golf?" And I said, "It was incredible. I had to dust off my dad's old clubs in the garage. I hadn't played ever." And I came away with a vision for golf and that became my hobby. And my dad and I, in the 1990s, we had the most fun going to different fabulous golf courses to play together. That was our connection, was golf. He didn't graduate from college. I led him to the Lord when he was 80. 

Kasey Olander: 

Wow. Praise God. 

French Jones: 

But those years from 70 to 80 for him and me, were the highlight of our life. And so when you think about recreation and opportunity, I'm playing in our church golf tournament Friday. I missed the one this week for DTS as I always playing that one. But my church guys asked me this time and I said, "You know what? I'm doing that one and not DTS." So it's a great way to connect any kind of, whatever it is. Whatever the recreation thing is, you can find other people that also enjoy that. And it's a great way to give your testimony if they're not believers. 

Kasey Olander: 

Right. Yeah. 

Michelle Pokorny: 

I think it's a great question that you're asking, Kasey, about the frivolity of some of the practices and going back to this being rooted in a relationship with the Lord, it's enjoying the gifts that he's created for our good. And so it's connecting with your dad on the golf course and enjoying that rich fellowship out in a beautiful setting. 

French Jones: 

Totally. 

Michelle Pokorny: 

I think of Adam and Eve and how they enjoyed the garden, right after… So God created them, Adam named, so he did a little bit of work, but then the very next thing they do is they rest in a relationship with God. And so it's a chance to enjoy those gifts that he's given for our good. And so is getting a massage frivolous? Whatever. I don't know for sure about that, but I'm all for any practice that you're going to enjoy the delight of being a human being created in the image of God. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. So rarely we think of golf as a spiritual discipline, but you're highlighting so many different facets of our humanity. Who we are as people is meant to connect with other people and meant to use the physical bodies that God has given us. My husband and I have recently taken up pickleball. I'm very bad at pickleball, but it's hitting on a lot of those things. 

French Jones: 

That's right. 

Kasey Olander: 

Like okay, we're connecting with other people and exercising, which is then, I keep thinking of the word stewardship coming to mind, that pickleball's a fun way to exercise unlike a lot of exercise. But I think it's a way to steward then what God has entrusted to us in our physical bodies and in our relationships with other people. 

French Jones: 

I would add in this particular aspect that one of the things that comes up in terms of self-care in counseling is this idea of how do we spend time together in order that it help us connect, but exhaustion and other things pressing crop into so many couples that are struggling with their marriages. And the image that comes to my mind is a car with an empty gas tank. I said, "Look, none of us criticizes the car for going and needing gas. It needs gas. It's not going to go." 

Kasey Olander: 

That's its design. 

French Jones: 

And it needs oil and it needs antifreeze. And if you put all the right liquids in the car, in the right place, you can't mix them. You cannot put the oil where the gas goes, but if you do it properly and appropriately enough, it will take you where you need to go. But here's the deal. All of us have this gas gauge, but only we can determine what is the right thing for our gas tank. See, what is that pickleball or golf? For me, it will be different for you, but my responsibility, if I'm going to do what God's called me to do and thrive and be a good steward, I have to have that self-awareness to identify that and say, as counselor, I'm asking that question. And you can't imagine the number of times people look at me and they go, "I'm going to have to think about that." 

Kasey Olander: 

I don't know what I like to do. 

French Jones: 

I say, "Then that's your homework. Come back next week and we're going to make that the focus of what that looks like. A plan going forward for you in terms of your self-care for your marriage." 

Kasey Olander: 

Right. 

French Jones: 

See? 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah, that's a great point. I love the car illustration because you have a specific one, so you need to know about that vehicle, not about all vehicles. And it's not generalizations. I'm probably not going to take up golf. 

French Jones: 

Right, right. That's right. 

Kasey Olander: 

I love that you do. 

French Jones: 

Exactly. Yeah. Well, that's the thing is that it's different. And my wife is different. Last thing she wants to… I come back so excited about golf and I'm starting to talk to her about golf and she says, "Look, look, look. Just tell me the best hole, one hole. That's all you get. I will listen. And then that's it." 

Kasey Olander: 

She's setting a boundary. 

Michelle Pokorny: 

Yeah, it's a boundary. She's setting a boundary up. 

French Jones: 

She's not interested. Okay, that's fine. 

Kasey Olander: 

She knows herself well enough to know it. She's not really listening. 

French Jones: 

That's right. Don't pretend. I can see. Yeah. 

Kasey Olander: 

That's funny. Well, that brings up a good point then. What does this self-care look? As we're talking about growing in self-awareness, if you don't like the word self-care, you could use self-stewardship or whatever it is that you prefer. But this concept of growing in self-awareness so that we can care for what God has given us, how do we involve other people in that? Is that something that I just decide for myself? Do I need to get other people's input? How does that work? 

French Jones: 

I think it's really, really important. One, that's why the Lord gave us the church, but I have a prayer partner, a mentor. I say mentor, we're equal. I mentor him, he mentors me, but he's also my therapist. For me, a guy friend to share what's going on with me. So that's in my schedule. For 12 years, I had, as my prayer partner, one of our pastors who was adjunct here, Pete Dyson. Pete Dyson, and I met for 12 years every Tuesday morning. And we had three questions, how was your walk with God? How's your relationship with your wife? And did you just lie to me? And this top-down, roof-off kind of communication about openness, we have to practice that, being open and sharing, especially with people that are serious and that want to know, how can I pray for you? And that's my question with my prayer partner, he asks that specifically. 

I'm asking others so many times, I need somebody to ask me that, besides my wife, which we do all the time. But that is, I think, a vehicle that is… Actually, I did my dissertation on alcoholism relapse and addictions. And over the years, this has come up in AA and the 12 steps where there is a sponsor for everybody that does the 12 steps and this accountability, I'm going to have to check with my sponsor. How many times have I heard that? I want to run this by my sponsor, and it's for their good to be open, really brutally honest is what a sponsor wants. We're not playing games here. If you want this, fine, but if you don't… 

And that's the thing about counseling. When people come for counseling, counseling's expensive and it's hard to get to and people carve it out of their schedules. So I want to be matching them in terms of the seriousness of what's going on here with their life in order to take those steps of whatever they are to get them out of the pit and back on track with the Lord or their life or their marriage. And this is an intentional step that requires effort, see? Simple as that. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. Being known doesn't just happen. 

French Jones: 

No, no. It requires effort. 

Kasey Olander: 

Right. And then so maybe someone speaking with you can mirror back to you and help you grow in self-awareness. Or they can be like, that really doesn't sound like you, like helping and probing in a way that's walking in the light and helping you to discern what might be some healthy habits for me in self-care and what's sustainable and realistic in this season. Anything else to add on the role of community and our self-care? 

Michelle Pokorny: 

Just a quick example for my own life, one of my mentors not too long ago asked me if I could come help her after she had a surgery, to take her home. Listen to post-op instructions, and then take her home and then care for her at her house while her husband was on a trip. And so we go and I'm in the room where she had just gotten out of surgery and the doctor's giving me instructions, and before I know it, I'm passed out cold on the floor. 

French Jones: 

Oh my God. 

Michelle Pokorny: 

And so my friend. 

French Jones: 

That's my story. 

Michelle Pokorny: 

Yes. My friend had to wheel me out of the hospital because I was… And then another friend had to come take care of both of us. And so the lesson learned from that because I knew that I get queasy, but I so desperately wanted to help her and care for her that I wanted to say yes to this chance to serve my friends. But she was like, "Hey, Michelle, next time just bring a casserole." 

And so helping someone speak into my life to say, this is a limit that you have. A lot of self-care is about embracing your limits. Like knowing my strengths and weaknesses. Here's a weakness. You don't need to nurse somebody back to health. You can care for them, you can pray for them, do all these other things, but here's a limit. And so unfortunately, through that experience, is how I learned a hard lesson. But just having people speak into your life and reflect things back to you, like you said, is really critical. 

Kasey Olander: 

That was a great example. Yeah. Because such a good desire, oh, I want to help my friend. But that doesn't mean that we need to all help people in the exact same way. God has given us different gifts and wired us uniquely. And so if we get to know how God has made us, we don't have to end up being self-centered, but we can actually be good stewards of maybe you're great at making casseroles. 

Michelle Pokorny: 

Much better than nursing somebody back to health. Yes. 

Kasey Olander: 

Well, in our last quick question, do you guys have resources that you would recommend to people who are interested in learning more about self-care in a healthy way in view of our relationship with the Lord? 

French Jones: 

Well, one of the things I did before the podcast, I just Googled it and oh my gosh, there's incredible resources out there… 

Kasey Olander: 

Which we always have to use with discernment, 

French Jones: 

Which you have to use with discernment. And so I think the bigger issue is awareness of my need. I would venture to say, every single person on the face of the earth is going to not have it all together 100%. And if that's the case, me included, that it's an ongoing… It's like our sanctification. We're just never going to be perfectly sanctified this side of heaven. It's an ongoing process of becoming conformed to the image of Christ. And I think this fits in that category that we need to be intentional about our own personal gas tank. Where is the needle? Being aware of that and going back to sleep. 

I will tell you, Amy and I are absolutely the champions of going to bed on time at nine o'clock every single night. 

Kasey Olander: 

There you go. 

French Jones: 

And when we don't, we pay the price. The other night we were at a birthday party at a restaurant, and my friends kept going on. We didn't get home until 11:30. Well, that's just unheard of for us. It was a Friday night, fortunately. We would miss church if we didn't go to bed on time. So this idea of being aware of our, what is that needle now? Is it approaching? That's when I start looking for a gas tank or a gas station because it's a quarter of a tank. And if I'm gassed up, well, I can go harder or say yes to things that I might not normally say yes to because I've got the bandwidth now. It's okay. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. Any closing thoughts, Michelle? 

Michelle Pokorny: 

Just to camp off of what French just said. Just knowing what practices really energize me and nourish me and what practices deplete me. And not that we need to avoid all those practices that deplete us because we're called into sometimes so situations and into doing those things and serving others in a way that may deplete us. But then building margin around that and allowing yourself the opportunity to be restored and rejuvenated again. So in summary, I don't think self-care is selfish. If it's a healthy self-care that's rooted in a relationship with the Lord and following his design for human flourishing. That's my closing thought. 

Kasey Olander: 

That's great. Closing thought, French? That's perfect. 

French Jones: 

It is not selfish. It is essential to our well-being and honoring the Lord in our service for the kingdom. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. I think we talked about it as a self-discipline, that as we grow in self-awareness, we don't have to grow in selfishness or self-indulgence, but rather, that helps us to steward what God has given us, our bodies, our minds, our souls, all of the different dimensions of who we are as human beings made in the image of God. That we can practice the self-discipline of self-care in order to be good stewards, and that it's a practice that takes time. So these rhythms can be established so that we don't get to the point of burnout. And so that we can, as you mentioned French, yeah, that we can leverage what God has given us for the kingdom. 

So Michelle and French, thank you guys so much for joining us today. 

French Jones: 

Absolutely. 

Michelle Pokorny: 

Yeah. Thanks for having us. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah, it was a great conversation. We want to thank you for listening as well. If you like our show, then go ahead and leave us a rating or review on your favorite podcast app so that other people can discover us. And we hope that you'll join us next time when we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of theology to everyday life.