Lessons From Egypt

And, it's safe to say that even his writing has led to many invitations with political figures because of his writing style and some of the characters that he designs and portrays. His writing is right out of real life and what is happening in the Middle East right now. And so, he had a very unique invitation that came from the President of Egypt, President el-Sisi. His technical name I suppose is President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi, but most people reference him as President el-Sisi. That invitation came because of the dedication actually of a Christian church and a mosque that was being built by the government with some surrounding funds that also came from individuals. But in many ways, as it relates to our topic, the President was making a pledge – a very public and possibly even dangerous pledge to the Christians in Egypt. And so, Joel had an opportunity to bring together ten or twelve individuals to participate and, in many ways, represent Western Evangelicalism, and to go there for that celebration. Darrell, do you want to kind of add to that of that invitation we received?

And, we also met with the leader of the Protestant churches at the same time – well, in separate meetings, but during the same trip. And, this took place in January of this year, 2019. And we were there – what – for I guess three or four days in and out of these meetings, attending these dedication ceremonies. We went to the dedication ceremony both at the Christian church and at the mosque because they're located in – Cairo is building a new administrative or governmental district.

That's actually what was going on. And they placed these two centers of worship in the new administrative district. The U.A.E. is actually in the process of doing something similar. The U.A.E., the plan is to have a mosque, a church, and a synagogue all in the same basic area to try and portray – and this is the case in some Muslim contexts – to try and portray at least an attempt to have these three historic faiths be able to function side by side with one another in the national context of the particular nation in question. So, that's the backdrop for what's going on here.

That was part of the eye-opening. Part of the irony of this visit was, at the very same time that all of this was going on in Egypt, on 60 Minutes here in the States, a special was being aired that focused on President el-Sisi. But what they concentrated on was the nature of the way his security state works to kind of protect his interests. That kind of thing. And as a result, what we were asked to do by the leaders is to go back and tell the story of what is going on in Egypt. Which is why we're doing this.

And to tell the part of the story that people normally don't get to hear. And so, that's what we were doing. And so, several of us on the return wrote pieces for a variety of news outlets. I did one for the Dallas Morning News reporting on what we had seen. And in my case, I juxtaposed what you were hearing on 60 Minutes about Egypt – which it wasn't that it was untrue, it's just part of the story – and then what we had seen. And put those next to one another which shows the complexity of aspects of the social and political realities in the Middle East.

And so, in many of he discussion that we were with, when they were saying there's a conservative group in both sides that longs to again, protect people and protect citizens, and to treat all people fairly, and to honor – if I can phrase it this way – human dignity. That was also one of the tensions because in the midst of this investment that the President is doing, and obviously, his background is of a military leader, so that's part of the 60 Minutes piece as well. Obviously, there is strong human suffering in Egypt. And so, on that perspective, how do you deal with so many things all at the same time to accomplish the greater good?

And I think we all walked away, our contingency walked away with a great appreciation – and to be honest, even a desire to pray for someone like that that is in a position of leadership. That's very biblical, right? Even if we disagree with their religious convictions, to pray for individuals that are in positions of significant influence of clearly which he is one. And it makes our political problems in the U.S. look like a cake walk compared to the long history and the baggage that he himself as a leader has inherited with such divisiveness. I mean, when you look at the history of Egypt and what has come of that is the seedbed in many ways for Jihadism that was expressed in lots of different countries at different points throughout history. For him to try come at it with a different model is – he has quite a task in front of him.

And so, there is a growing, not just in regard to the role of the Church, but the positioning of evangelical leaders within governmental structures. That is something else that we saw that part – I'm following up on what you’re saying that it's probably better than it's ever been for that generation. To see Christians that are in strategic positions interacting with other folks was something that was they wanted us to be able to tell that story.

But of all the things that we could have talked about – we didn't spend an awful lot of time talking about the dedication of the cathedral, the Nativity, which is the name of the church that was dedicated. We didn't talk about President el-Sisi. He wanted to talk about the children. And, I'll never forget this moment. There was a shift as we were all asking our questions. We could all ask a question just going down the line and he would respond. And you could tell his heartbeat. He wanted to talk about the valuable role of Sunday School in the church.

We want to be involved in that educational process. To teach people about Jesus. And he talked about some things that they're doing. He made reference to VBS. It was almost a discussion of something that many of us are familiar with. Something like Awana or something like that for kids. He talked about a process of that. He showed us a curriculum that he'd had a team writing on. You could tell he lit up when it came to how do we equip the next generation of believers in Jesus to know him better and to know his word. It was very encouraging.

And so, just another sign of the indications of change that are coming in the country where there's an effort to try and recognize and protect the Christian presence. Now there's one other thing about the Middle East that needs to be said and that is their view of religious liberty is not our view of religious liberty. And what I mean by that is for them, religious liberty is if you are born a Christian, then you have the right to worship as a Christian. That's acceptable in the highest and acceptable form generally speaking in the Middle East. If that's recognized, that's what it means.

But what you're not allowed to do – and this is how it's different than the West – what you're not allowed to do is to proselytize or bring someone over. The effort to try to move someone from being a Muslim to a Christian is not allowed. It's against the law. So, one of the issues that we face globally in talking about Christianity and Islam is this very different view of religious liberty. Now there actually are discussions going on between Muslims and Christians about this. That's a whole other podcast. That's a whole other discussion. But there has been a ten-year process.

We actually have some graduates of ours who are involved in these conversations. And, I'm just back from Yale, which I'm getting updated on some of what was going on. But this is a cultural gap that is discussed and debated as the issue of religious liberty comes up in the Middle East. So, it's important to understand that culture is not our culture. It's very, very different. And bridging some of these gaps are not easy conversations.

Having opportunity to share a cup of coffee with somebody at McDonald's. And they may go shield up and tell you to get out of their booth. But if they're open, you can have that very public dialogue. Where do you do that in an environment where it says sharing your faith publicly is taboo. That's a whole other dialogue.

And so, you can see how difficult that kind of a conversation would be because it really is a culture changer in a significant way. But those discussions are happening in some places, which is interesting. And it's happening in some pockets of the Muslim world. The other thing that reinforces what Mark just said is there is a huge Christian – revival may not be the right word. There's a huge Christian growth happening in places like Iran through broadcasts that come into the country. I know of one ministry called Iran Alive, in fact we've interviewed their leader on the podcast who says that by their estimates, there are 6 million people who watch his show daily.

Most cultures were much more monoculturally-structured than they are now. So, everybody across the world is having to deal with various forms of pluralism and that's impacting. Because there are more choices out there, more of what people are aware of, that's impacting how people process what's going on around them. Because – if I can say it this way – the default isn't necessarily a default anymore. And that default shifts depending on what culture you're in. So, if you've heard me use the word complex… [Laughter]

That's the way some people are reacting. Other people are going, "You can't stop it, so how do you deal with it?" And those are the two core reactions that we're seeing to what's going on around us. There's a lot of important – for lack of a better description – sociology going on in our world that definitely impacts us, but we tend to not think about it because it almost operates underground.

And so, it's a great reminder for all of us to remember who it is that we represent in the midst of all of that. And I think that was a reminder to me personally even in this trip and as we began to think and process. We processed on the plane all the way home of how do you even wrap around this? I am no – as you can even hear in this discussion – I'm not an expert in Islam. I am not an individual that has mastered Muslim theology and how to best engage and talk. But I can see where it's very important for me as a believer in Jesus Christ to be able to connect with another human being. To appreciate who they are and the world in which they've come out of. It's not my culture, but I have an opportunity to reflect the Savior even in my care and compassion. And appreciation for who they are as a human being.

And we're asking them about Islam. And then Isis came up. And when Isis came up the blood pressure almost in unison like a chorus changed on all our visitors. And the one message they wanted to send to us is That's not Islam as far as we're concerned. They could not have been more clear about their absolute desire not to be identified with that. And that actually for me, I view that as one of the most important meetings I've ever been in because what it made very, very clear to me, and it started me thinking about this, was when I hear the word Islam or when I meet a Muslim, I need to not have a singular stereotype about what that means. Because I literally could be in all kinds of different places.

And then the more I've worked with this and studied this as I've traveled – I've been to Indonesia and I've been to many countries where Muslim presence existed and a few cases where it's been the majority. For example, Jordan is an interesting place. Jordan does a lot of stuff that attempts to cooperate with the Christian presence in the country. It's not openly hostile to Christians. Egypt is an example. The U.A.E. is going in this direction, as well. But there are other places where to be a Christian is to be at risk. And so, you've got this spectrum that you're dealing with. And so, I think it's important for people to understand when they hear about Islam of getting some sense of the fact that different Muslims react to different things in different ways.

The other time when this hit me in a major way is, we did a tour of Turkey. This would've been back in 2003 or 2004, and we spent three weeks in Turkey. And we got to Istanbul. It's just my wife and I. One of those sabbatical experiences. So, thank you. There are parts of Istanbul that you're in and you go, I could be in Europe. You would have no clue you were in an Islamic country.

It spooked my wife. She just didn't feel comfortable going anywhere as a result. She wanted to be in the hotel and she wanted to be to the next town. So, there's just this range that's a part of what it means to think about Muslims and Islam. You have secular Jews, you have secular Christians, you have secular Muslims. And then others are very, very devout. We were in a taxi in Turkey at one point and the time for prayer came.

And so, which nations are really moving that direction, versus others that are entrenching into that perspective. So, whatever language that you want to use of radical Islam, or Jihad or any form of again, human persecution that would come out of that religious ideology, there are certainly some countries that are rising to the top and saying what you're saying in that meeting from four years ago saying, "That is not us."