Orality in Missions

Spoken Worldwide 

 

Voiceover: 

Welcome to The Table Podcast, where we discuss issues of God and culture. Brought to you by Dallas Theological Seminary. 

Darrell Bock: 

Welcome to The Table, where we discuss issues of God and culture. I'm Darrell Bock, Executive Director for Cultural Engagement at the Hendricks Center at Dallas Theological Seminary. And our topic today is probably one you may have never even thought about. And it is the topic of ministry in a context of orality. In other words, ministry in context where people do not read or write, and how do we do this? Is that a fair summation of- 

Ted Crump: 

I think so. Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. So my guest is Ted Crump, he's Director of Development for Spoken Worldwide, which is a ministry that is focused on these kinds of contexts. And my first question is one I always ask every guest, what's a nice guy like you doing in a gig like this? 

Ted Crump: 

Well, it's a great question. I initially came to DTS… I graduated from here last year with my ThM, initially came here from the mission field anticipating entering into local church ministry. I knew I needed to be trained and equipped and wanted more theological education and backing, and totally expected to use that as a pastor someday. And boy, there just weren't a whole lot of pastoral roles available at the time that I was graduating, the height of COVID and everything else. And the Lord had a funny way of placing me at Spoken, which I initially was a little bit reluctant to pursue, because I had come from the mission field and I really was wanting to focus more on the local church. But it's been incredible to me the way that I've been able to use both my experiences on the mission field and the training and education I've received at DTS to kind of merge those two things together and advocate for oral people groups through Spoken. 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting. So how did you get connected to Spoken in particular? I mean… 

Ted Crump: 

Well, so the CEO of Spoken is a gentleman by the name of Ed Weaver. He's over at Northway Church. My church, East Side Community Church, planted from Northway a few years back. I had met Ed a couple of times before, and I was actually entering, interviewing, excuse me, for a position at Northway, a pastoral position at Northway, back a year ago February. And Ed ushered me to my seat and said, "So what are you doing here?" I said, "Well, I'm interviewing for a position and looking forward to hopefully being on staff here at some point soon." 

Ted Crump: 

And he said, "You should look into joining Spoken Worldwide. We got a lot of cool things going on. I think, with your experience, you'd be great for that role." And I initially kind of brushed it off, the interview process ran its course. And I found myself in the summer about to graduate. And I thought, "Goodness, I've got no opportunities on the table. I got a wife and two kids. I need to find a job." And I thought, "Maybe I should give Spoken a call." And so I circled back and it's been phenomenal. 

Darrell Bock: 

So you ended up at Spoken because you needed eggs on the table- 

Ted Crump: 

That's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

… in the morning, right? 

Ted Crump: 

Yeah, that's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

Wow. So tell us about Spoken. What do they do? And if you're director of development, I don't think this is a hard question for you. 

Ted Crump: 

For sure, well, Spoken Worldwide, exclusively ministers to the two thirds of the world's population that are oral communicators, or oral learners, which means that they either cannot or do not read. And so that's our mission. And there's been so much great work done from missions agencies in the past, really, over the years to evangelizing disciple people from across all cultures. But our tendency, as Westerners, to focus on text based materials, whether it be Bible translation or curriculum, has unintentionally overlooked a majority of the world's population that either cannot or do not read. And so Spoken attempts to communicate God's truth with these groups in a way that resonates with them, in a way that they can understand and respond to, in a way that's engaging, that helps them come to know the Lord as their savior. And will, hopefully, bear fruit in the respective regions where they're living and working. 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, this raises all kinds of questions in the back of my mind. So we'll just start through the list. And that is, so how do you minister to someone to whom you can't hand a a tract or a text or whatever? How does that work? 

Ted Crump: 

Well, it's a challenging concept for sure. The three primary ways that we go about doing it are through oral Bible translation; pastoral development, which is essentially just our fancy way of saying discipleship, it's a discipleship making movement; and then coaching, which is helping train other ministries that are doing effective ministry in various regions around the world to utilize some of the same techniques in orality that we've come to learn and use to minister effectively amongst people who can't or don't read. 

Ted Crump: 

And so our oral Bible translation team is a group of ex-Bible translation consultants for Wycliffe and a bunch of different organizations, who've caught wind of the vision and have gotten excited about what it is that we're doing. And have decided that they want to make the rest of their lives about translating the Bible orally for people who otherwise would have no way of hearing the gospel. 

Ted Crump: 

Our pastoral development teams are intended to raise up indigenous leaders and teach them and train them in stories, songs, dramas, Proverbs, poetry, generally the same types of communication methods that they already employ day-to-day in their communications with their friends and family, because it's just a part of their culture, using those forms with gospel-centered truth, to be able to impact them in ways that hopefully will bring about a life change and salvation. 

Darrell Bock: 

If I could just get out… Well, let me ask you this question first. So what parts of the world do you all work in? Where are we exactly? 

Ted Crump: 

We've got quite a few. We're working in Northern Ghana, Northern Nigeria. We've got some in Northern and Southern Egypt, Sudan, Ethiopia, Northern India, Myanmar… Those are the ones off the top of my mind that I can think of in terms of- 

Darrell Bock: 

So Africa and Asia. 

Ted Crump: 

Correct, in terms of Bible translation and pastoral development. Looking to expand more into Middle East, North Africa as relationships are cultivated and things developed there. Just started a Bible translation project in Brazil amongst a people group there. So there's a handful of different spots that we work, but I would say we're predominantly in Africa and Southeast Asia. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, I mean, again, there are all kinds of questions. I take it that the oral translation has got to be Indigenous based to some degree. In other words, people within the countries that you're talking about who know the languages- 

Ted Crump: 

Correct. 

Darrell Bock: 

… that you're talking about. 

Ted Crump: 

Yes. 

Darrell Bock: 

So there's a two step training, right? Well, there's a one step training with those people, and then those people are ministering to the people in their region. Is that basically how it… So I'm not going to walk off the boat for Spoken Worldwide and start ministering. I'm going to minister to someone who has training, has background, that kind of thing, and is interested in going to these areas. 

Ted Crump: 

Yes. And I would say part of the reason why… To kind of just circle back to your original question, how did I get excited about Spoken? I initially was reluctant to join up, but when I started learning more about Spoken, I became really excited about our methodology, because our methodology is all about training and equipping and empowering Indigenous leaders to carry on the work themselves. My wife and I prior to coming to DTS, had served in Southern Africa for about four and a half years as missionaries there. And one of the things that I became acutely aware of during that time was that I was not near as effective at ministering as a faithful Swazi person might have been. 

Darrell Bock: 

Sure. 

Ted Crump: 

And that's where we lived was Eswatini, which is made up of the Swazi tribe. And so, as you can empower and enable an indigenous leader to carry the gospel forward, there's going to be a movement unlike one that I could produce. And so that's much of Spoken's methodology. And so when it comes to translation practices, we are finding people, faithful people within the context in which we serve, who want to come on board with what it is that we're doing. Our translation consultants will then teach them the basics of Bible translation. There will be a consultation process at the beginning of the translation, where all this is taught and learned, and then the translation will progress. And our consultants who live here in the states will travel periodically to those locations to check in on how the process is going. And there's often back translation that will occur, just to make sure that the authenticity and integrity of the text is being maintained in the process of translation amongst Indigenous people. 

Darrell Bock: 

So you said you were in the southern part of Africa, the name of place where you were again? 

Ted Crump: 

Well, it's formerly known as Swaziland, The Kingdom of Swaziland, since we left, they changed the name to Eswatini. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. Because I go, I don't think I've ever heard that before. 

Ted Crump: 

Small, landlocked country in between South Africa and Mozambique. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. I've been to South Africa multiple times. So that's why it fascinated me to hear where you were. I take it a very different ministry than what you had there. 

Ted Crump: 

Yes, very. Very much so. 

Darrell Bock: 

So I get off the boat and go there and help train someone, would that be the role that I would have if I were to be a part of Spoken Worldwide 

Ted Crump: 

We have directors and consultants over oral Bible translation, we also have them over pastoral development to meet with Indigenous leaders and encourage them, and teach and train and equip them how to use story, songs, and drama to communicate gospel truth with their respective communities. And so, one of the ways that we do that, we were in Egypt just a couple months ago to check in on a Bible translation project and a pastoral development project. And the pastoral development was really fascinating, because everybody would get in a room and they would talk about the cultural issues that they had to overcome as believers in their nation or in their culture. And then they would mark down all these items. And then they'd draw the list down to about two or three, and then they'd say, "Okay, which one's the very most important? Let's find a story from scripture that can speak to that issue. And let's try to learn the story in a way that we can tell it naturally at the drop of a hat with people around us." 

Ted Crump: 

So really, through the course of this pastoral development process, you're empowering people to use God's word in context, in circumstances where it's necessary to use it or beneficial to use it with people that you're already in community with. And it was fascinating to see the level of dialogue and engagement that was taking place. And as you might imagine, sometimes it felt heated. I think that probably is due to the fact that oral cultures oftentimes are very animated in the way that they present their information. Because when you're trying to transmit or receive information, it's a benefit if you can't read, or if you don't read to have voice inflection or hand motions or things like that. And so a couple times I turned to my coworkers and said, "Goodness, what's going on? I feel like there's a fight about to break out." But it was just people engaging over God's word and enjoying the dialogue, and oftentimes the debate over what specific texts were going to be used to address in their respective communities. 

Darrell Bock: 

Now I heard you drop a phrase in the midst of talking about this, I think I've heard stories, songs, and… 

Ted Crump: 

Dramas. 

Darrell Bock: 

Dramas. 

Ted Crump: 

Yes, sir. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. So obviously there's a kind of the way in terms of how you get to the content that you're sharing orally. Well, talk first about the environment that you create to do that, and then talk about those three elements of what you do. 

Ted Crump: 

Well, one of the things that's interesting about our ministry is that most of the… For example, a lot of our Bible translation consultants have been missionaries on the field for long periods of time prior to coming on board with Spoken. So a lot of them have preexisting relationships in place with ministries and different leaders throughout the area. And so that's part of the way that we can go in and establish a relationship with people in country. And we really don't go anywhere that we're not sought out. We don't want to go against the grain or try to swim upstream with people who are not eager to receive what it is that we feel like we have to share. So a lot of times these relationships, in the places where we work, have formed organically through preexisting relationships that we already have in place. And once that happens, we will take the individual, the indigenous person, we will have them find leaders within their community that they believe might benefit from this training, pull the community, bring the folks together. And then there will be kind of like an opportunity to pitch the program, per se, the initiative to the individuals. And then, start teaching them round one, round two, throughout the course of the year, this pastoral development program, which spans the course of three years long. 

Ted Crump: 

So the pastoral development program is uniquely designed to co to cover three years. The first year, we're only pulling material from the Pentateuch and the gospel narratives, so that we're covering the arc of redemption. The second year, we're looking only at the prophets and the Pauline epistles. And in the third year we're covering everything else. And there will be about 40 passages covered over the course of every calendar year, 10 of which are some sort of community development, maybe a story from their own culture that could be used to address a need that they have within their respective community. But the vast majority of those stories, 30 of the 40 would be gospel centered stories, pulled from scripture to speak specifically to those communities. And a story would be shared, retold, a story would then be shared incorrectly. The community that would then have the opportunity to correct the storyteller as he's telling the story, to really prove the point that orality is not prone to error. And I think a lot of people believe that it is. But when you can display to folks that it's not, in the context of a community. And I think that's something that we miss as Westerners. We tend to believe that these stories are being shared one person to one person to one person like the old telephone game, that's not the case. Because oral communities, tend to be community-focused and very collective in their orientation. They're not individualistic like we are. So all these things are shared in community. There's a lot of dialogue in community. In many ways, stories are remembered and locked in ways that people didn't even realize they could learn or understand a story, because of the way that we're sharing them, which is natural to the way that they communicate already. 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting. So when they're meeting, are these meetings taking places in homes or in community context? Or does it vary? Or how does that work? 

Ted Crump: 

It would vary depending on the location. When we were in Cairo a couple months ago, we were meeting in an upper room at a church. There was another group down in the south of Cairo in Aswan that would meet in a different location. And so it just kind of depends on the context of the community, what they're comfortable with. It's highly contextualized for the respective community's needs. 

Darrell Bock: 

So I take it, the sequence is, there's a minister who's been ministering in an area, they already have these relationships. They go in, they're now equipped to think about how to share these stories and pieces that they have. Does it happen spontaneously or do they arrange it? How does that part of it work? 

Ted Crump: 

A little bit of both. From my understanding, there are times when they can gather groups together and say, "Hey, let's have a discussion group. Let's talk about this story that I've heard from God's word." And sometimes it's a group of people, believers, who might need discipling and the stories intended to help disciple them. Sometimes it's non-believers who are being introduced to gospel content for the first time. And it's a way to evangelize them and share with them the true God that we know and love and worship. 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting. So there's a program that's for the pastors, that's helping them develop on the one hand. 

Ted Crump: 

Correct. 

Darrell Bock: 

And then there's the ministry to the orality group. Let's talk, you talked a little bit about this, this actually has an overlap with the gospels and thinking about the fact that before the gospels were written, these were basically an oral culture that was passing on. You sometimes get the comparison that orality involves distortion because it gets passed on. You've mentioned the telephone game, it gets compared to that sometimes. And I have a lecture that I do, that say, "That's not how orality works in these communities. And that ignores an element of community oversight that comes into stories that they care about, et cetera. 

Ted Crump: 

Correct. 

Darrell Bock: 

…and the way that community itself is structured to preserve stuff that they want to remember." 

Ted Crump: 

Correct. 

Darrell Bock: 

Talk a little bit about that and what's involved in that. 

Ted Crump: 

Well, so the interesting thing that I don't think we consider, those of us who are text-based, Western in our thinking and our educational models, don't consider, as we think about oral people groups or oral cultures, is that really, there are only two places where you can store information as an oral learner, in your mind, or the mind of your friends and your family. And so what happens is stories that you receive or communications that you receive that are important have to be shared with other people, if you don't want to lose them. 

Ted Crump: 

Because if you're trusting your own memory to remember them, which maybe it's good enough, there is some level at which you might fail and lose something altogether. And given that these cultures are very community-oriented in the first place, there is a sharing of information that we see amongst them that we wouldn't see in our cultures, Western culture, text-based culture, per se. And so oftentimes stories are prioritized traditions, stories from their heritage, from their culture. And they're passed along from generation to generation that way, because they know that if they don't keep them in their minds and in the minds of their friends and families, they will die off and they will lose them at some point. 

Ted Crump: 

And so it's critically important for them, if they want to maintain their heritage, maintain their culture, which being a community oriented culture to begin with, one that focuses very heavily on family, on village, on tribe, they're very focused on making sure that these things are passed forward through the generations, because they don't want to see what they've come to know and love die off. 

Darrell Bock: 

So is there a mechanism that they have to do this to preserve these stories? I mean, obviously it's sharing it among many people. One of the points I like to make about the gospels is, because the impression is you had the event and then someone remembers the story way, way, way down the line. Well, in fact, no important stories are being told and retold all the time. You're getting multiple presentations, you have multiple people who know the story. So how does the check work on keeping the story, the story? 

Ted Crump: 

In terms of main maintaining its authenticity? 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

Ted Crump: 

Well, I think, again, kind of going back to the community concept, these things are shared in community. They're engaged upon in community. And there's a sense in which, if the story is incorrect, it will be corrected by those in the community who know the story well, along with those- 

Darrell Bock: 

There are people who are regarded as kind of the- 

Ted Crump: 

Yes. 

Darrell Bock: 

… patriarchs of the story, if I can say it that way. 

Ted Crump: 

Yes. And at some level, because so many of these cultures are honor/shame. There's a great respect and an honor given to the authority figures, the elders within the community who have the ability to be able to speak into circumstances where stuff might be misunderstood. And because things are being shared in the community context so often, you don't see a whole lot of error amongst the traditions and the stories that are passed from generation to generation. 

Darrell Bock: 

I think that's something that people don't appreciate about the way orality works in cultures and the way in which important stories are overseen, passed on. I'm assuming, and I'll ask the question, I don't know if… Well, I'll ask it. I'm sure you've heard the name, Kenneth Bailey. Does that name ring a bell to you? He's worked in gospel studies and that kind of thing. 

Ted Crump: 

It does. I can't recall exactly where I've heard it. 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, he was a missionary who worked in oral cultures, in Bedouin cultures in the Middle East. And he is the one who has come up with this model of what he calls "informal but overseen orality." In other words, anyone can tell the story in the community, but if the story veers too far off, there will be a correction, and the community will hear the story properly, if I can say it that way. 

Ted Crump: 

Absolutely. And it… I just had a thought and I totally blanked on it. I'm sorry about that. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's no problem. So it's a way of the original model that came for New Testament studies was what's called informal and uncontrolled, and it was tied to Bultmann, and that's where the telephone game illustration came from. And then the second model, which came out of rabbinics, was formal and controlled. And it was very, very precise. I mean, down to the word. The problem was is that when you compare the gospels, you don't always get the same exact wording, you get some variation. So you get variation in gist. And so Kenneth Bailey said, "I've been ministering to these Bedouin communities for years in the Middle East. It's a pretty conservative oral tradition." In other words, they passed it on from generation to generation. "And what I see is this gist variation part of the story." Which means it's informal, anyone can tell the story, but it's controlled. There are people overseeing how the story gets passed on in the community, and making sure the core of the story remains what it has been." 

Ted Crump: 

Correct. And I think what I just remembered that I was thinking of was, amongst oral cultures, there's also not… I think oftentimes because of the way that we've been trained, because of the way that we've learned, which has benefited us a great deal. I mean, I think about my experience here at DTS was phenomenal and I'm certainly grateful for it, but it's ingrained in me certain priorities in the way that I think in the way that I learn. Oral cultures are typically not as concerned about some of the things that we are concerned about. For example, chronology- 

Darrell Bock: 

Yes. 

Ted Crump: 

… not a big deal. In fact, the major emphasis amongst an oral culture would be the priority of a certain story, not necessarily… I mean, the main thrust of a certain story, not necessarily the order in which the story's happening. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's right. That it happened is more important than when it happened. 

Ted Crump: 

Right. And also, you think about, thinking back to the whole ipsissima verba, ipsissima vox thing, where we're talking about, are we talking about the voice of God? Are we talking about the very words of God? And recognizing that the words can vary just a little bit. And to an oral culture, if the words are not verbatim the same, it's not a huge deal. Because the overall emphasis, the overall thrust of what's being communicated is still getting through. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yep. And I- 

Ted Crump: 

But once you start to… I'm sorry. 

Darrell Bock: 

No, go ahead. 

Ted Crump: 

Once you start to lose that thrust is when there's the oversight that steps in and says, "No, that's not the story." 

Darrell Bock: 

Yep. Yeah. And of course, the issue is, is that I always have lots of ways that I can tell a story. I can cite it word for word, I can summarize it, I can paraphrase it, et cetera, all those mixtures come in. And we actually, when we hear stories in that kind of way, we don't react negatively, necessarily, to someone who's… 

Darrell Bock: 

The illustration I like to use is you've got the five minute news report at the top of the hour. And you know you got two commercial breaks in there, and you've got maybe, two and a half, three minutes to do the news. So someone comes on and says, "The president gave his State of the Union message tonight." And then we have the choice, we can play a little clip that summarizes it, or we can say, "The president said X, Y, and Z." And whether I quote the president X, Y, and Z, or I summarize the president X, Y, and Z, as long as that is accurate, I don't have a problem with the way that's been done. 

Ted Crump: 

For sure. 

Darrell Bock: 

And I think sometimes the gospels are working that way. And so what you're saying is, is that whether you're getting a verbatim or whether you're getting a summary, as long as the core direction of the story is in line with what the story is and has been, and what the story was, then you won't be subject to correction. But if it does veer off too far, then a point will be made and the correction will be made. 

Ted Crump: 

For sure. Absolutely. And that's how it plays itself out in our pastoral development discipleship program. And I should clarify that pastoral development program is called pastoral development, the intent there is to help people pastor in their respective communities, but it's not exclusively for pastors. So there's a lot of folks who are just laypeople within the respective community, who would like to learn more and grow in their faith and understanding of God. And they are certainly welcome to join us in that as well. Anybody who wants to faithfully serve their community, but feels limited, because they're unable to read, we welcome them to come and join us in the way that we're ministering, so that they can be effective ministers of the gospel in the way that they believe God's called them to. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. That takes me to where I wanted to go next, so this is great. And that is, so one of your pastors who you've trained, walks into a community, begins to communicate and share with them. There's an interest. The interest connects, if I can say it that way, so that you're now forming a community within the community there that's primarily oral. And then I take it, at some point, there's, well, maybe a transition or alongside the sharing that you're doing to expand within the community, there's a discipleship element that comes alongside of it with people who connect, is that the next step for these communities? 

Ted Crump: 

Yes. And it's very much a discipleship making movement in a sense that, one week as we're sharing a specific story, the story's being shared with indigenous… I'm sorry, we're working with a community of indigenous leaders, and as a story is being shared, with an indigenous leader, the indigenous leader is then going and taking that to a community and sharing it the same week with other people. 

Darrell Bock: 

I see. 

Ted Crump: 

And the hope is that, at some point, those people who are being ministered to would then fall into the category of a next generation indigenous leader who then goes and shares down the line. So in some levels, it's almost like a pyramid scheme, per se. In the way that we're trying to reach people by sharing with them, enabling them to share with others, and then encouraging them and empowering them to go do the same. 

Darrell Bock: 

So that means that some of your indigenous workers will eventually come out of the very oral communities that you were originally seeking to reach. And I'm assuming that your indigenous workers who start the cycle are people who aren't just in an oral context, and then it gets passed on- 

Ted Crump: 

Yes. 

Darrell Bock: 

… into the oral context. 

Ted Crump: 

I would say most of the indigenous leadership that we work with have some level of training, some level of theological training, and some level of literacy or awareness of reading and writing. And I think that's another thing that's worthwhile in mentioning, is that when we talk about oral cultures, there's really kind of two groups of people. Oral people exist along a continuum, and there's oral people who come from communities where there is no written text for their specific language. That would be a primarily oral group, oral culture I should say. They are oral communicators by necessity, because there's no other way for them to communicate. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. Got it. 

Ted Crump: 

Then the others are oral communities primarily by preference, because many of them can read and write at some level. But traditionally, culturally, they've not been readers. It's not the way that they prefer to communicate with one another. It's not the way that they prefer to learn or to transmit information with their family, friends, and community. 

Darrell Bock: 

So that raises an interesting… So some of your indigenous workers, I take it, they must have come out of some of these oral communities, and become more literate, and then are going back. Because, if a community is strictly oral and there's no written language, and the indigenous worker who works with them needs to work orally with them, he needs to know the language that they're operating in. 

Ted Crump: 

Correct. 

Darrell Bock: 

So how does that happen if the community's a tight oral community? 

Ted Crump: 

If it's a tight oral community, and there's no individual within that community that is able to break out at some level and engage with us in their native language, that can then be passed to their community in their own native language, then there's probably not an inroad into that community as easily as there would be another community. 

Darrell Bock: 

Got it. 

Ted Crump: 

There are sometimes opportunities where certain communities speak, they don't speak the same heart language, but they might have one second language that they- 

Darrell Bock: 

Got it. 

Ted Crump: 

… speak the same. So we're seeing that some in Sudan and Egypt, where there's this overlap between standard Arabic speakers or Egyptian Arabic speakers and Sudanese Arabic speakers. And the Egyptian Arabic speakers are stepping up to take the gospel into these Sudanese Arabic locales. 

Darrell Bock: 

And does it ever happen that you get someone who's out of these tight oral communities, but they have emerged from those communities and have come into a larger societal context? And so they become at least potentially available to go back into those communities? 

Ted Crump: 

I'm not sure if that's ever happened at Spoken. 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting. 

Ted Crump: 

There are other organizations who focus on orality, Faith Comes by Hearing is one, YWAM is, at some level, focused on orality and working in oral Bible translation, things like that. Alongside us in an initiative that we have going with every tribe, every nation collaborative, that's attempting to accomplish an oral translation in every known language by 2033. Or excuse me, they're trying to translate the Scriptures into every known language by 2033, of those languages that are left to translate, many of them are oral. So Spoken, Faith Comes by Hearing, and YWAM have come together to translate into those oral languages, hopefully, by 2033. So- 

Darrell Bock: 

And I take it, these are oral recordings that then are replayed through- 

Ted Crump: 

Correct. On an audio device. So we've got what's called a MegaVoice MP3 player that solar powered- 

Darrell Bock: 

Got it. 

Ted Crump: 

… that people can use in their community. About 10 people could probably stand around and hear it clearly. 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting. 

Ted Crump: 

So to answer your initial question, though, I don't know if other organizations have dealt with that. I'm not sure that Spoken has in particular. But it'd be interesting to talk to some of our operations guys and see what the story is on that. 

Darrell Bock: 

And then does the situation come to a point where you've got the oral translation, they're functioning orally in the culture, is there ever an effort to bring in a group like a Wycliffe or someone like that to say, "All right, let's record," and by record, I don't mean orally, "and write down the language, and get them a hard translation"? Or is the orality good enough? 

Ted Crump: 

Since our slice of the pie is the orality slice, we're not focused on what comes down the pipe. So if somebody wants to do that down the line, they certainly could, I suppose, we haven't given at that level of thought yet, because we haven't gotten to that point- 

Darrell Bock: 

I see. 

Ted Crump: 

… in our translations yet. We have one translation in North Africa right now, that is, the New Testament will be completed in the next couple of weeks, and we're starting to work on an Old Testament shortly after. And that's the furthest we've gotten in any translation. We've got about six or seven translation projects up and running right now, to the best of my knowledge. And we're working on opening up more with the help of Faith Comes by Hearing and YWAM. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. Now the natural question is, so you go in, you have about 30 stories or whatever, are you working with a whole gospel in telling the stories, or are you jumping around? 

Ted Crump: 

Say that… How would you… Say that- 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, all right, so do you walk in and say, "We're going to translate the Gospel of Mark, and those are going to be the stories that we're going to tell." Or do you move around just various stories about Jesus? Or how does that work? 

Ted Crump: 

For an oral Bible translation, we would work through entire books. For the pastoral development program we might hop around. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. Interesting. So which books are the biggies for you guys when you get started? 

Ted Crump: 

To my knowledge, our priority is starting with the Book of Mark, I could be wrong on that. When I was in Egypt a couple weeks ago, we were listening to a back translation of their Book of Romans that was translated in a dialect of Arabic that's common across North Africa. 

Darrell Bock: 

Oh, wow. 

Ted Crump: 

But, to the best of my knowledge, I think we start in the Book of Mark, almost always. 

Darrell Bock: 

Makes sense. So you introduce them to a gospel, and they're getting a little bit of Old Testament to get that part of the story, I'm taking it'd probably be parts of what Genesis and other- 

Ted Crump: 

Correct. 

Darrell Bock: 

… parts of the Old Testament that are key to the development of that story. And then, do you tend to stay in the gospels and then go to the epistles? Or do you go to the epistles pretty quickly? How does that work? Or does it depend? 

Ted Crump: 

Well, the progression, typically, there's three cycles, and one cycle typically lasts a year in the pastoral development program. And so what we would do is we would confine the stories to the Pentateuch and the gospels for that first cycle. If they're running across issues in being able to meet and being able to come together and tell stories the way that we would expect them to be able to, then we might drag that cycle on for 18 months, perhaps, it's not necessarily a hard and fast one year, it depends on the context. 

Darrell Bock: 

So you're reading what the reaction is- 

Ted Crump: 

Correct. 

Darrell Bock: 

… as you're doing what you're doing. 

Ted Crump: 

So if cycle one runs 18 months, because of circumstances, or maybe the countries come across a civil war, like in Myanmar, perhaps. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, sure. 

Ted Crump: 

They might not be able to get through cycle one in a year that might push them a year and a half or two years. In which case, we would stay in the Pentateuch and the gospel narratives for a year and a half, two years. And then after we've covered about 30 stories from the Pentateuch and the gospels, and about 10 community development stories, 40 stories total, we would then move on to the second, which would be the prophets and the Pauline epistles. And then after the next 40 stories, we would then move on to the wisdom literature, general epistles, and revelation. 

Darrell Bock: 

I see. So Romans comes in the second cycle. 

Ted Crump: 

Yes, it should. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. All right, so that's interesting how that works. So I was curious to see if you get to a certain point where you go, "Well, it might be helpful…" I mean, if they're working orally, they're used to oral… And of course, one of the things that the ancient world used to say is, "We like the living voice better than something written down on a page." So I like to tell people, "Well, the reason why it took so long to write the gospels is because you had the apostles as your witnesses, and the living voice was more valued than something written down. It was only as the apostles began to die off and you were losing access to them, it became important to record what it was that they were saying." 

Ted Crump: 

For sure. 

Darrell Bock: 

And I guess the transition for an oral community, if you wanted to give them a written Bible would be the reverse. Which would be, they're functioning and functional in an oral context. So in one sense, they don't need it. But on the other hand, if you decided that you wanted to record it and pass it on and give them another way to process it- 

Ted Crump: 

Absolutely. 

Darrell Bock: 

… you would do it in a written form where they can ponder it a little more. 

Ted Crump: 

Right. And there has been some discussion about that in the office, in terms of once our recordings are complete in the oral Bible has been translated, or we have translated the scriptures into an oral form for a specific language, what does that look like? And could people then… and theoretically people could, I mean, I suppose anybody could take whatever we've translated and put it onto paper. And give it to a culture, should they need it or want it. We would not be the ones who would specifically go about doing that, because we feel that our slice of the pie is the orality slice. And we want to focus on that, but we would certainly not be against anybody doing that. 

Darrell Bock: 

And the challenge, of course, is that you would also have to be instructing the people and moving from an oral context to a context in which they can read, whatever it is you produce, which is its own challenge. 

Ted Crump: 

Right. And for better, for worse, however you want to… I mean, most countries in reporting their literacy statistics are not forthright in the way that… or perhaps they elevate their literacy… We're assuming, I guess, at some level, but it's a confident assumption, that most countries, especially in an honor/shame culture, in order to save face, they're reporting higher literacy statistics than actually exist, because somebody can actually read the words on a page out loud. 

Ted Crump: 

My wife, for example, who's lovely, this is no jab at her, she grew up in Russia. She's a missionary kid. She can read Russian just fine. Now she doesn't necessarily know what it means. She can't examine it in any sort of critical capacity, she's not going to read a Russian Bible, even though she can read a Russian Bible. And so I think at some level, when you're thinking about oral context and oral cultures, just because a culture can read or just because they have the ability to recite the words from a page, doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to be able to critically engage with it at the level that would foster any type of spiritual growth. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. And. Again, I'm thinking about the analogy of discussions about literacy that exist, and when we talk about the New Testament. And one of the issues is, so define literacy for me. In other words, what counts as being literate? What level are we talking about? Because there's a whole spade of being, what we might consider highly literate versus being basically literate. And- 

Ted Crump: 

For sure. 

Darrell Bock: 

… so there's always a range that you're dealing with. My guess is the governments will take any form of literacy they can to make it count for literacy. 

Ted Crump: 

Right. And it's also hard across cultures and across nations to determine what the standard is, because, just to your point, each country has a different standard for measuring and reporting literacy. So if you're reporting from a bunch of different standards, it doesn't quite make sense to necessarily just say, "Oh, 40% is 40%," because that 40% may look a whole lot different than the 40% that you would see in a different culture. 

Darrell Bock: 

So basically what I'm hearing is there's like a three year cycle that goes through, and then do you repeat the cycle? I mean, what happens when you're done after three years? 

Ted Crump: 

After three years, there will be like a ceremony, per se, almost like a graduation, where you'll celebrate the culmination of a three year program. And then you'll invite those people to start their own programs, and just run it organically themselves, and carry that tradition that they've experienced forward. And then oftentimes through those relationships cultivating new relationships in new communities that either are similar dialects or completely different, perhaps, where you can replicate the same program across… For example, our work in Northern Nigeria spilled over into Northern Ghana recently, because of some relationships that existed there. And so our CEO went out to Northern Nigeria a couple weeks ago and he closed out and celebrated the successful completion of a three year cycle with one program in Northern Nigeria, while also observing what was happening in Northern Ghana. And getting excited about the new creation of pastoral development groups that operate in Northern Ghana. And that's just the pastoral development program. 

Ted Crump: 

There's also the oral Bible translation piece, which is a little bit different. And that would be for those cultures that don't have a written text to even record audibly into a device. And so our hope is that at some point we can start with oral Bible translation in a culture that does not have God's word, and then it would spill into pastoral development, where we could use that oral Bible translation to disciple people in God's ways through truth, story, songs, dramas, things like that, that have been pulled from God's word. 

Ted Crump: 

And then as ministries are established and people are effectively growing and being discipled in Christ, we could then coach other ministries how to do the same work effectively amongst those areas. So I mean, there's really three ways that we operate. And sometimes it's a little bit hard to parse out the details between, and there's a lot of overlapping details between them as well. But keeping them straight in your head oftentimes is difficult to do. 

Darrell Bock: 

So how long has this Spoken Worldwide been operating? 

Ted Crump: 

Since 2005. Ed Weaver, our CEO, he's a business guy, really. He's not a ministry leader, per se. Now he is, but when he started this in 2005, he wasn't, and he had a friend… He'd grown up in Northwest Arkansas, his dad was a Bible professor at John Brown University. His dad was a DTS grad, got his ThD and his ThM here. So he'd grown up around ministry, but he was in business. And one of his business partners, as they were finishing up a relationship, at one point said, "I really think you should go into ministry." He said, "Yeah. I just don't know what I would do though." And his partner said, "Well, you're into technology," because that's what they've been working with. 

Ted Crump: 

He slid an iPod across the table that he just purchased for his daughters for Christmas and said, "Why don't you look into how this might be used across cultures and missions or something." So he started doing some research, and he realized that one of the biggest problems in missions is that two thirds of the world's population either cannot or does not read. And although there have been incredible efforts in missions over the years, unintentionally, we've overlooked this group, because so much of our effort has been focused on text-based, Western approaches. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yep. No, I'm very familiar with this. One of the people who I used to do a ton of interviews with, John Ankerberg, is very interested in this kind of work. And he was sharing with me, on a regular basis, how the technology was developing, and even, it isn't quite in the same audience, but the idea of you can speak in one language and this thing will immediately translate it into another, so that you can get to that oral level quickly, that kind of thing. So just very, very fascinating work. And anything that we haven't covered that we ought to have covered? 

Ted Crump: 

Oh, boy, there's a whole lot that exists in this realm that I feel like is untouched. But I feel like we've done a pretty sufficient job of being able to touch the bases today. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. So tell us a little bit, if people want to find out about Spoken Worldwide, how would you do that? 

Ted Crump: 

You could go to spoken.org. If you had any questions you wanted to learn more, I'd be happy to engage with you. My email address is [email protected]. So those are two ways that you can learn more or engage with somebody within the organization. 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, that sounds great. I really appreciate you taking the time to be with us, and to kind of give us an introduction into the world of orality. And like I say, part of it, the reason it fascinates me is because it does overlap with a very important- 

Ted Crump: 

For sure. 

Darrell Bock: 

… discussion that we have about the nature of the gospels. And a misimpression that is often created that, because you've had a long time between the event and the recording, that somehow you've lost the story. And that- 

Ted Crump: 

Just not true. 

Darrell Bock: 

… just not true. I have a lecture called Minding the Gap that's about that entire thing. And so it's good to see that orality still lives. 

Ted Crump: 

That's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

And that there was a way of getting the gospel to these cultures. It's very fascinating work that you're doing. We thank you for joining us. 

Ted Crump: 

Thank you for having me. It's great to be here. 

Darrell Bock: 

And we appreciate you being a part of The Table and we hope you'll join us again soon. If you want to see other podcasts, you can go to voice.dts.edu/tablepodcast, and that will introduce you to the variety of episodes. Now over 500 episodes on topics that range from, well, wherever God and culture touch. So we hope you'll join us again soon. And we thank you for being with us. 

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