Pastors, Policy, and Partnerships

National Association of Evangelicals 

Church Ambassador Network  

Darrell Bock: 

Welcome to The Table where we discuss issues of God and culture, and we do this in order to talk about the relevance of theology to everyday life. I'm Darrell Bock, Executive Director for Cultural Engagement at the Hendricks Center here at Dallas Theological Seminary, and I have two wonderful guests today to discuss how various church ministries interact with both state and federal governments. To my right is Bryan English, who brings a diverse background to his role as Executive Director of the Church Ambassador Network of Texas. That sounds like a different ambassadorial call than what I'm used to hearing about, including pastoral ministry, nonprofit work, and campaign experience. You grew up in Iowa? 

Bryan English: 

I did. 

Darrell Bock: 

So a Midwest boy. Served on staff at the First Baptist Church in Spencer, I take it that's in Iowa as well. I have no clue where Spencer, Iowa is. He also worked for the Iowa Family Policy Center, now called the Family Leader, and served as a congressional staffer and led or worked on local, state, and federal campaigns. Bryan and his wife Amy live in Houston and are members of Cornerstone Community Bible Church in Richmond, and they're parents of three adult sons and a daughter-in-law. I grew up in Houston and I refer to myself as a Houstonian in exile living here in Dallas. So I'm feeling a kindred spirit. It's really great. 

And then online we have Steven Eng, who is NAE Advocacy Director, helps advance the principles of the National Association of Evangelicals, that's what NAE stands for, document for the Health of the Nation, working with evangelical leaders and others to steward their God-given influence to bless our nation. Eng served for three decades as an ordained pastor in the Evangelical Covenant Church, and currently serves in a pastoral role at New Day Covenant Church in Rochester, Minnesota. He received a degree in political science from St. Olaf College and an MDiv degree from North Park Theological Seminary. Married to Judy. They have a young adult son, a married daughter, and one granddaughter. 

All this experience in our midst. It's a real pleasure to have you all with us to talk about the way in which the church and state connect to one another from a church perspective. I'm going to begin with you, Steven, since you work mostly in relationship to the national government there in DC, even though you're in Minnesota. How did a nice guy like you get into a gig like this? How do you go from a church to being an advocacy director? 

Steven Eng: 

That's a great question, Darrell. My one-word answer is God, that He just opened a door for me that I wouldn't have imagined. I was in a season of transition after being in 30 years in local church ministry; loved that. But partly due to my wife not wanting to relocate, saw a post from the NAE. I'd been a casual observer of the Ministry of the National Association of Evangelicals, and in the course of a few days they had created a position for me. I had some background in political science in my undergraduate studies, and certainly followed current events and some policy things over the years. But they realized that they hadn't had anybody in anybody's memory really working around the country in the field connecting pastors, evangelical leaders to the policy work that the NAE was doing in Washington, DC. So it's sort of an ambassador of the NAE to evangelical leaders around the country. 

It really marries my passion for the local church, understanding both the opportunities and limitations that pastors have in being engaged in advocacy, and just making that bridge so people understand the rationale, the passion, the biblical foundations of the work that we do in federal government spaces. So it's been a delight. I love meeting pastors, nonprofit directors, other leaders who really love Jesus and love the people that Jesus calls us to serve, and to help connect the dots with things that maybe people see in the news that they don't quite know how to react or where to find trusted information, so I love to be that liaison for them. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's great. How long have you been in the position? 

Steven Eng: 

About four years. 

Darrell Bock: 

About four years, okay. I know a little bit about the NAE and the history of this. Rick, is it Cizik, had a role in the NAE years ago related to the national government. Is your position like the one that he had? Or has it been recast since he was working with the NAE? 

Steven Eng: 

Rick would've been the predecessor to our current vice president of government relations, who's Galen Carey. He is the one who represents the NAE to Congress, the White House, and the Supreme Court. And then we have also a policy and advocacy manager who works with him on DC facing things. So I report to Galen, and I'm, like I said, the guy out in the field. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay, I see. So you help that section of the NAE and you're particularly engaged with pastors in helping them. Is your job to keep pastors informed of what's going on and have them aware of what's going on? 

Steven Eng: 

Yeah, of the variety of issues we work on, I do a little more focus on advocating for those who are vulnerable around the margins. So sometimes at events, I've done over 100 events in the last several years at churches, networks of pastors, colleges, universities, other settings. Sometimes we talk a lot about what does the Bible have to say about the vulnerable, because sometimes we don't spend a lot of time on those passages, and what's a biblical case for advocacy, how that's part of our discipleship. And then oftentimes we talk about what's kind of the state of play of what's happening that people read about in the news related to national policy. And then what are some trusted resources, what are some tools, what are some simple ways that people can get involved in public policy advocacy. Because a lot of pastors don't do that or haven't had the experience, so how do we make that simple, doable, give them some hands-on experiences. Also take pastors sometimes on tours or interactive learning experiences. 

I say a lot that we help pastors and leaders become more confident in issues that maybe people in their congregation buttonhole them on in the back of the church after the sermon, and to become more confident and competent in navigating some of those issues. And then again, how to take action themselves privately or help their congregations be more mobilized. 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting. And Bryan, your assignment, I take it, is Austin primarily. Is that true? 

Bryan English: 

The state of Texas. I think we're the only state that has an every-other-year legislative session. We're in that season right now. So between now and Memorial Day, we are very Austin-centric. But the rest of the time we are scattered out around the state working with pastors and with governing officials. 

Darrell Bock: 

So again, the same question. How did a nice guy like you get in a gig like this? What's the background that pulled you in? 

Bryan English: 

I was not reall terribly aware or engaged when I was pastoring until I opened up the newspaper one morning and saw in Iowa there's a variety of forms of legalized gambling, and there was a group that wanted to put a casino in my hometown of 12,000 people. I just thought that that was something the church ought to oppose. And so through the process of that casino referendum, learned how to organize not just the church but a community to turn people out to vote, to communicate through various means, and just exercised a lot of the skills that suddenly put me on the radar of folks that were more politically inclined. That's how my resume includes things like a congressional staffer and campaign work. It was very similar to Steve. God just started opening doors. 

My wife and I have always had the attitude that ministry is not just what people tend to think of as vocational ministry. If you're not in the pulpit, that doesn't mean that you're exempt from ministry. And as God was providing us these opportunities, we saw it as a great space to step into on behalf of the Kingdom. 

Darrell Bock: 

I take it then your ministry takes on a little different flavor depending on whether the Texas legislature is in session or not. Let me ask you this question this way. What's your typical day when you're in Austin and they're in session versus the day that you have when they're not in Austin and not in session? 

Bryan English: 

That's a great question. When they're in session, things are moving very quickly. Our goal is to inspire the church to engage government to advance the Kingdom of God. That's part of why we see ourselves as ambassadors. When the United States sends an ambassador overseas, it's not to adopt the culture of the country that you're in; it's to represent the country you're from. We very much see ourselves as representing the Kingdom in that arena. 

And so during session, we bring pastors to the Capitol and we facilitate meetings with members. The three things we focus on are to minister to them as a person first. They're used to everybody coming in either with their hand out or their fist up, and we come in with our arms open and first saying, "We care about you. God loves you, you're important to Him, so you're important to us." And then we teach them through Scripture and just sort of repetition that they're a shepherd serving in an institution that God ordained. And so that's a mind shift for folks in government. They see themselves as bureaucrats or politicians. If they're looking at social media, they're seeing all sorts of things said of them. We come in and say, "If you look at the design of the One who created government for our good, you're a minister serving in that institution. You're a shepherd." And so over and over we love them as a person, we teach them that they're a shepherd, which is a new mind shift, and then we elevate the church as a problem solver and a potential partner in the community. 

I frequently tell people in government, "The problems we're asking you to solve as our government here in Texas are simply a physical manifestation of a spiritual condition." And the government's not called, neither is it equipped, to deal with the underlying spiritual condition. They need the church. And so we go to sort of the obvious easy places to start with. Foster care and adoption is something that in all 50 states, every state government is dealing with. They're overwhelmed. Well, the church oftentimes, and here in Texas is a perfect example, the church is actively raising up foster parents and actively encouraging parents to adopt kids that need a permanent home. Putting those effective ministries together with our governing officials to help them get creative ideas to partner in the community is a great way to meet a need that they have at their work, but then to also expose them to an opportunity to share the Gospel. 

Darrell Bock: 

So you're interacting with them. I'm on the board of a group called CIPS. It's Christians in Public Service. It tends to work more with local officials, but it's the same point, which is we come alongside. Everyone wants to extract commitments from the politician, which is personally, at a personal level, most people don't think about this, very draining for someone, particularly if there are expectations that they bring with that. "You represent me, you need to do this." Even though there are other people who say, "Well, you also represent me and you need to do that." And so there's that challenge in this process. So when you're meeting, you're interacting with them. But when they're not gathered together and doing the legislative process, what are your days like then? Are you mostly with pastors or out and about? 

Bryan English: 

During the season when they're not in Austin is actually my favorite. I love taking pastors to the Capitol. It's a fun experience. But the members tend to be so busy and so overwhelmed. When they're not in session, instead of bringing the pastors to Austin, our staff goes to the pastors, and then we go and we visit with those lawmakers and governing officials at home in their home office. And so the environment is much different. Sometimes they'll come in a T-shirt and shorts. Oftentimes it's jeans and boots in Texas. It's far more relaxed. Where at the Capitol, if we get 20 minutes we're doing really well. In their district office when they're not in session, we might get an hour or 90 minutes where we can really drill down. 

The interim between sessions is also where policy is really made. When they gavel in in January of a session year, they kind of know where they're going. The governor will give his condition of the state address, which just happened recently. The agenda is already sort of in motion by the time they show up. And so it's that interim period where we have an opportunity to hear what they're working on and then to- 

Darrell Bock: 

Feedback, yeah. 

Bryan English: 

… speak into that. What we try to tell them is, "We're going to check our personal politics at the door." I don't ignore the fact that every pastor I bring probably has a political perspective. I hope they're voting and that sort of thing. But when we engage with our governing officials, we tell them, "To the best of our ability, we're going to answer your questions with chapter and verse. We want to represent the Kingdom of God, not our personal opinions." And so that interim period is a really sweet time to be able to build deeper relationships, to pour into them, and to look for opportunities. If they claim Christ, if they're active in a church, we want to remind them their public service is part of their testimony. You're a child of the King, so let's act like it. And for those that don't yet know Christ, it's a great opportunity for us to demonstrate that the church is meeting needs, and then to explain why and to start introducing them to Jesus. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's great. So Steven, obviously you work with Galen on some of this stuff, and that he's there in Washington working on policy and you're connecting and helping pastors understand what's going on. What's your day like? Because if you're not in DC but you're ministering to pastors and that kind of thing, you're in a different environment than being right there in the midst of when everything's happening. 

Steven Eng: 

One of the good things with my position though is I do get to go to DC seven or eight times a year, so I make a point of doing Hill meetings when I'm there. So I do have some time with lawmakers and their staff in DC as well. Maybe the sense of my rhythm is slightly different than Bryan's. But yeah, we can go back and forth. When I'm on the Hill, I just really enjoy that. I really enjoy getting to know. Sometimes we meet with members; a lot of times it's with staffers in DC. I find that much of our government is being run by twenty-somethings. It's kind of like young adult ministry. 

But just for people to know that as evangelicals we care about them and want to pray for them and be a support and a source of encouragement, and also support of some knowledge because sometimes people really do care what we think and we're able to work behind the scenes on helping shape some policies. I also tell people, I don't know if this is entirely accurate, but I kind of feel like we're the bird on the back of the hippopotamus picking the bugs off his back. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's a wonderful image. 

Steven Eng: 

It's like a symbiotic relationship where we gather intelligence from one office to the next. And a lot of times we'll have a staffer say, "Well, what are you learning? What are you hearing?" And I'm thinking to myself, "Why don't you just walk down the hall and talk to somebody from the other party or from another office?" But they don't do that so much. They're all kind of in their bubbles. So as we go from office to office, we can share intelligence and help people find maybe surprising allies on certain policies that they're working on. So that's kind of enjoyable. And to let them know about bills that we think are really important. We don't typically lobby for bills, but we more advocate for biblically rooted principles. But to make them aware of some bills that are being considered. And it's surprising, I think because there's just thousands of bills that are introduced regularly, that they're not aware of some really significant pieces of legislation that we think they ought to consider. So I do enough of that. 

And then so much of federal government is involved with… Federal advocacy has to do with coalition building, so I'm often in Zoom meetings with broad-based coalitions because to get things advanced at the federal level, even though the NAE is this umbrella of 40 denominations and thousands of organizations and we're the largest evangelical network, we still have to partner with other evangelical organizations beyond our own coalition. And then sometimes we partner with people in the business community or law enforcement community or national security community or other faith groups, especially within the spectrum of Christian faith groups, in order to advance policy. So there's a lot of intelligence sharing that we do via Zoom, and that's not unusual even for those who live in Washington, DC. 

There's just so much variety in what I do. We had 75 students out every year. We have a Christian student leadership conference in DC, and we take them on Hill meetings. They met this year with six senators and top policy makers. We do fly-ins from time to time. There's convenings in Washington, DC. There's just so much variety. I took a group of a dozen denominational leaders to South Texas last week to the border to experience some things for themselves firsthand. I'm taking another group to San Diego next week. 

And then between my trips, I'm on a lot of emails talking and coordinating and generating things, like so many people do. But it's amazing how much we can do by Zoom as well. And especially with COVID, I think that much of federal government is happening via Zoom, and some of that has certainly continued to this day. 

Darrell Bock: 

You raised something that's interesting that I think most people aren't entirely aware of, and that is there's the elected official and then there is his staff. I find when I go to Washington and meet with leaders, et cetera, sometimes the most important people that I'm interacting with isn't the elected official, but the people who are gathering information and in some cases helping the politician kind of understand what's going on in given areas. Can you talk a little bit about how staffing works for politicians in federal government? I think that's probably an unknown area. And I'm sure the same thing is also true in state government. 

Steven Eng: 

There's so much at the federal level. Somebody was asking me the other day, I think there's between 15 and 25 staffers per senator just based in DC. And then some of those staff people not only work for that senator, but they also are part of a committee like the judiciary committee or the finance committee or whatever. So staff serve different functions. 

Darrell Bock: 

Those are the people sitting behind the senator when you're watching them on TV, right? 

Steven Eng: 

Exactly, yeah. A lot of those people actually are the architects of policy, so they really put together policies. Some are attorneys. There's a variety of people, all the way down to the person who answers the phone who may be a college intern. But there's highly accomplished people who are crafting these things and then have the ear of their boss obviously. And ultimately the elected official is running things, but they can't possibly keep up with all these issues. Many of those staffers have their own portfolio of one or two or three issues. Or in a House office that maybe only has five to seven staffers, they have a very broad portfolio of things that they try to keep track of. So the staffers really do matter. And by building relationship with staffers, sometimes those staffers float from office to office. They don't always stay with one elected official for a long time, so to build relationships. 

Somebody who was a really key contact for us in a heartland state senate office, she's an exceptional person, just moved over into the Senate Majority Leader's office. She spoke to our students a couple of weeks ago. And so we maintain that relationship with her even though her seat on the bus changes. So staffers are really key. They also face a lot of pressures. And many of them don't get paid very much. And so for us to really care for them pastorally as well as talking about policy things is a really important part of our ministry. 

Darrell Bock: 

And state structured similarly? 

Bryan English: 

In Texas it is very similar. I'll echo what Steve had to say that my first job in DC, when I was a congressional staffer I was 30 years old, and I walked in and instantly felt old. Government and both arenas, there are a lot of very young people doing a lot of heavy lifting. 

Similarly here in Texas, there are a lot of young people. It might be their first job for many. Some of our state schools actually have an internship season during the session where they can get college credit for going and working in the Capitol. And so it's fun the first week or two to walk through and see the big eyes as people are sort of taking in the whole environment and getting a feel for the rhythm. But unlike DC, which sort of never ends, here in Texas the legislative session is 140 days and it's very intense. And as it gets towards the end, it becomes seven days a week. And so to go back over and over week after week, we have a presence in the Capitol every week during session. And as you get farther into session, we find ourselves having more and more ministry opportunities with those young staffers because they're experiencing a level of stress and sometimes sleep deprivation that even for a college student is unique. And so we have great opportunities to minister to those staffers. 

Darrell Bock: 

This is going to sound strange, but when did you know you were a staffer? What was the first wall that you hit? Do you remember what that would be? 

Bryan English: 

The first wall? The first time I really caught myself realizing that I was doing what I was doing, somebody referred to me as a DC insider. And I laughed. They said, "Well, you work for this member and you're in and out of DC." Like Steve said, the staffers that work closest with the member, you sort of start to get a reputation for, "Oh, he's got the congressman's ear, or he's got the senator's ear." You do hear a lot of stuff. And so it was a strange world that you get dumped into right away. 

There are all kinds of stories. The first time I was in DC, I had my staff badge sort of getting the lay of the land. I had been to the first day or two of training. They do training for new staffers. My boss asked me to go over to the main Capitol building, so I used the tunnel to get underneath from our office building to the Capitol, but got lost and popped up in a black tie reception at the Library of Congress and popped out of this door. Some waiter in a nice suit came over and said, "Sir, can I show you to your seat?" And I said, "No, show me to the door. I'm not supposed to be here." But that's the sort of thing that as just a tourist, I never would've found myself wandering around the tunnels underneath the Capitol complex. But that was kind of fun. 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting. I was just recently in Washington on a project that actually the NAE was involved with in part on immigration, and a very interesting conversation between a Democrat and a Republican working together on immigration legislation. That was in itself already a little bit of a surprise for me. And then I went to talk to one of the members and asked a question, and I got quickly referred to a staff member. It wasn't a brush-off, it was because the staff member knew the answer to the question that I was raising better than the member did. 

Bryan English: 

That's true, yeah. Frequently true. And like Steve said, the staffers, depending on the size of the staff and how long the member's been there and if they serve as a chair or a ranking member on a committee they get more staff and they start to have more and more specialized staff. And so it's not uncommon for somebody who's in their mid-twenties to be the expert in the room on a question like that. 

Darrell Bock: 

Steve, let's talk about advocacy for a second. Let's define what advocacy is. You already hinted at it a little bit in the sense of we aren't so much interested in particular bills as we are in the principles that are rotated around legislation. Talk a little bit about what advocacy is. When someone says, "The NAE has an advocacy director," what exactly is involved in that? 

Steven Eng: 

Well, because we've never had one before, we kind of are making it up as we go along. I think of the verse in Proverbs 31 that says speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves and ensure justice for those who are crushed. And so we give a voice for, on behalf of, and also with those people who may not feel like they have a voice in the process, and understand that at least how democracy is designed to work is that people can have a voice and our elected officials are accountable to us. 

A lot of that is letting people understand what the Scriptures… I mean, not every bill that's been introduced or every policy has a direct biblical correlation, but there's understanding of the great commandments to love neighbor as ourself that are really foundational, that every person has been created in the image of likeness of God and has inherent dignity. Those are foundational perspectives that we want to remind people who, maybe even in the evangelical world, are more informed by media than they are by the Scriptures. So we're always calling people back to the Scriptures. But then saying, "It is okay to speak up and there's a time for that." Sometimes Romans 13 gets quoted and say, "Well, we just have to obey the government." Well, in a representative democracy, we're all supposed to be involved, engaged in the governing process. And so our duty is not to be passive, but to be engaged at some way as responsible citizens. It's a beautiful system when it works, and so it is our Christian duty and privilege to be engaged. Some people, maybe the goal is for them to be less mean or more informed. 

I'm really careful what I post on social media, but I did post something yesterday and I did say in my last sentence, "Be carefully before you mindlessly repost a meme before doing your homework." Because there's just a lot of things that we need to do to be more informed on issues. But all of that means helping people understand that we each have more influence than we realize. And I think certainly pastors who not only have some spiritual authority but also have a constituency, certainly denominational leaders, non-profit directors working directly with those being impacted by certain policies, part of their job description we think ought to include advocacy that they are speaking into the system. Because for instance, many churches do a marvelous job with compassion ministry, and so they're really addressing felt needs. But then to ask the question, "Why do people have these needs in the first place? And what might be happening upstream of these issues that lead people into difficult situations?" That's where advocacy comes in. I don't always use the word justice, but it's that sense of that there's sometimes structures or systems or ways that we go about life and our culture that also need to be addressed besides individual behavior. 

Advocacy gets involved in those things, and we want to do that with humility and charity, and understand that the details of policy we might get wrong or there may be unintended consequences, but that certainly our posture should be towards loving neighbor as God has loved us and to try to work towards those ends. 

Darrell Bock: 

I often find myself when talking about this that there is the what and then there's the how. I may know what needs to be done or what needs to be fixed, but actually asking the question, "How is the best way to do this relationally and in a way that tries to represent everyone who's being represented by a representative of those kinds of questions?" is very, very important. It's very, very easy to say, "I'm going after the what," but not give the attention to the how. And in that process do damage in the midst of trying to do something that's intended to be actually very positive. I think that's a challenge. 

Is there advocacy in what you do at the state level? Would you say there's something like that going on, or is it slightly different? 

Bryan English: 

Yes, the partnership component that I spoke of has an aspect of advocacy, but we often say that our ministry moves at the speed of relationships. Where other groups that would say they're advocating would be more dependent on the calendar, we've got 140 days, we're going to advocate for these bills, my legislative agenda for this legislative session is that more people in government would see themselves as shepherds the way we believe that God sees them, and that more people in government would see the church as a viable problem solver and partner. 

As we bring pastors into the Capitol, our posture and approach is we're going to start every meeting with a passage of Scripture, and we do start with Romans 13 the first time we meet with a member to just give them an idea of where we're coming from, that God created this institution. But then as we get to know the member, we get to know their heart for what drives them to service, we'll bring Scripture that's relevant to the things that they're passionate about. We also try to bring pastors who have ministries that align with those passions. We really see the role of a parachurch ministry coming alongside the church and elevating the ministry and mission of the church. 

Where my previous work in politics would have been more designed to get pastors to come with me to move a specific bill or to advocate for a specific policy, my role now is to serve more as a guide and a translator. It's kind of like taking folks on a mission trip. When I used to take groups to Mexico on mission trips when I was pastoring, we needed a translator. I'm not fluent in Spanish. But that translator wasn't setting the agenda; he was helping me to accomplish the mission that God had given me and the group that I was leading. 

Similarly, we see our role that way at the Church Ambassador Network. God called these pastors to be pastors, and we're trying to help them to see government as a legitimate mission field. Every mission field has sort of culture, standards, a lexicon. Our job is to be able to speak the language of the pastors so that we can translate for them, but also to learn to speak the language of the Capitol. And then we facilitate these relationships. What happens over time, the pastors develop a genuine love for the people serving in government and look for ways to bless them. We also believe that as hearts are softened and hopefully lives are transformed through the gospel, they become far easier to convince that their policy ought to reflect a biblical worldview. 

Darrell Bock: 

You mentioned the issue of government officials seeing themselves as shepherds. I just want to underscore that with a biblical basis, which is when David was selected as king, the picture of shepherd was of course the choice of the image that was used for the way in which he was supposed to lead the government and to care for people. The picture of a shepherd is something Jesus has for himself as the Messiah, as the messianic king of the Kingdom, et cetera. And it's interesting because shepherds really have two roles. On the one hand, there's an element of guidance that's a part of it. There also is an element of protection- 

Bryan English: 

That's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

… that's a part of it. So it's an interesting image to think about in relationship to government service. Here's a question that I have. I'm almost afraid to raise it, because in case you haven't noticed, there's just a little bit of polarization in our world right now. And a pastor feels this. He knows that in his congregation he's got people who think one way or the other about given issues and maybe even quite passionately about it, et cetera. But of course, the reason they're in church is because they have this relationship to God that they have that they're trying to live out. What advice do you give to pastors about the polarization that we find ourselves in? Because frankly, I think anyone would want to know what the advice should be in dealing with where we find ourselves now and thinking about how we handle that tension and that disagreement in a Christian manner. 

Bryan English: 

Well, on our part, as we bring pastors into the Capitol, the first thing we do is there's a chapel on the fourth floor of the Capitol building. And so we start our day in a time of orientation and prayer to sort of get our hearts in the right posture. Because not just the people in their pews, but that building is full of polarized discussions all day long. And so it's not just the member that we might go to visit; it's the people that we run into in the cafeteria, the people we're standing with on the elevator. You never know when you're going to get one of those potentially confrontational moments. And so we encourage everyone to remember their testimony is far more important than the policy. Not that policy is something we're disinterested in. We definitely want good public policy that reflects a biblical perspective. But the first things first, we're ambassadors for Christ. 

If one of these members were to walk into our church, it should be like walking into an embassy. They're experiencing an entirely different kingdom. But just like an ambassador to a foreign country, when we walk outside the walls of the church, we're now the ambassador representing the Kingdom in a foreign land. And so we really drill it into the pastors. Even if you're very passionate about some of the issues or if you have people in your congregation that are expecting you to come and deliver a stern message, today when we're here, our mission is much bigger than today's political agenda. 

That doesn't mean that we're disinterested. That doesn't mean we will refuse to talk about it. But like I said earlier, we coach pastors to the best of our ability. If we feel ourselves getting drawn into the topic of the day, instead of parroting the talking points we may have heard on our favorite news channel, we want to answer with chapter and verse. We want to leave the members, whether we agree with them or not, we want to leave them with a resource so that they can go and double-check us. And if they honor God at all, or just are curious where their Christian constituents are coming from, to give them the ability to go and to look on Google, "Where is this verse and what does it say? "That's really our advice to them. 

And then when they go back to their congregations, I've heard this from folks that sometimes they're surprised that their pastor would come to the Capitol with me. "Oh, I've tried to get my pastor involved in this arena for years and years. I'm surprised he came with you." What I'm finding is the reason that we are getting so many pastors that want to come is because it is so Gospel-focused. It's basically an evangelism and discipleship ministry that we have in the Capitol. And so that draws pastors in and they come. But what happens is I hear on the back side that they come back and they're speaking from the pulpit from a firsthand experience. I've seen these folks. I've seen this environment. I've watched the process. They tend to pay more attention afterwards, and it just becomes more natural to speak into civics. 

As Steve said, the way our founders designed our country and our state, they took the characteristics of the king, which in the Bible that's typically government is the king, and they said, "All right, well, we're going to break these into three branches. We're going to have the different responsibilities fanned out." But the sovereignty issue was reserved for the people. And so whether we're engaged or not, we are actually part of the government in America because we the people are the sovereign. And so we have a role in understanding the process, knowing the players. And because we're Kingdom first, we're always looking for an opportunity to represent the Gospel biblical principles, but also to have that relationship that would then hopefully draw the lost to have a curiosity about Jesus. 

Darrell Bock: 

Steve, as you think about polarization and what you have to say, what advice would you give? Because I am almost certain that a lot of people listening to this, they're certainly aware of the polarization, and I imagine a lot of people wrestle with how to think about it. 

Steven Eng: 

Yeah. Speaking from my own experience as a pastor who was quite afraid of losing people or giving or whatever over wading into tough issues, I'm finding my voice in just reminding people that… In fact, in our last Evangelical's magazine from the NAE, we quoted somebody who just said that politics may be the only way we have to live together with people who think or live differently than we do. So it's not something that we can avoid when we engage with a broader culture. I think a lot of pastors simply retreat into a personalized, individualized sort of theology because that's just safer to do that. I remind pastors that politics involves policies that impact real people, and those are people God loves. So somehow we got to figure out ways to lean into that. 

I think, again, it's being in Scriptures, biblical teaching. The whole counsel of Scriptures is so important. And our posture towards people, that we have a humility, a curiosity as we engage with people who may live or think differently than us, that we can always learn something from others. Even while we're not compromising our faith by any means, we develop that sort of posture I think is just so helpful. We find ourselves understanding that we can be in common cause with people on certain issues that we actually find a lot of common ground on, and that can be across parties. And then another issue we may find we don't agree with those people, but that doesn't prevent us from working in common cause on the things that we do agree on. And then to just be respectful as we engage people. 

And just like what Bryan has said, I think when we take pastors to DC, when we take pastors on these experiential learning trips, they begin to understand that sometimes we have a lot to learn and that we can find that God moves in surprising ways in surprising spaces. But that sensitivity of the Holy Spirit and His Spirit's moving that draws us together means sometimes that we change our mind on things, and other times we are only that much more bold in our convictions of what we really do believe in guided by the Spirit. So yeah, that's some of my thoughts. You could push back on me if you want to. 

Darrell Bock: 

No, no, no. What I'm hearing is is that actually one of the best ways to deal with polarization is to work hard to be a pretty good listener and to listen where other people are coming from. I have a verse that we use when we're talking about cultural engagement on a regular basis, particularly there's a talk I give on difficult conversations in which this is the verse that we are focused on, and it's James 1:19-20. "We're supposed to be quick to hear, slow to speak, and slow to anger, because the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God." And then I make the point that the world has a variation on this verse, and it goes, "I want to be slow to hear, quick to speak, and quick to anger, because that lets you know what's really bugging me." 

I see that contrast and I go, "Sometimes it's helpful to hear a life experience of someone, particularly if they've come from a very different place than you have, and to actually process that and to listen for what you can learn, what you can become aware of, et cetera. And that can be very, very beneficial. I think a lot of our problems sometimes emerge because we don't know each other very well. And the more we isolate ourselves from one another in the midst of these conversations in which we're supposed to figure out what's the best way for us to live together is a challenge. And so I commend you all for the work that you do because I think you're trying to step into that space in a healthy kind of way. 

Bryan English: 

One of the advantages we have as representatives of the church is that we approach relationships differently certainly than the way they do in DC. But even in Austin, our political system tends to be a transactional environment. The relationships are transactional. And as long as I'm providing some tangible benefit to you, you and I are tight friends. 

Darrell Bock: 

And it's a conflict environment, let's be honest. 

Bryan English: 

Yes. We operate under the idea that we don't want to engage in a transactional relationship. We want to have an opportunity to see where God's hand of favor is opening doors. For instance, our planting ministry, it's a Church Ambassador Network of Texas, but we're in 20 states. So if you go to the state of Wisconsin or New Hampshire or Maine, there's Church Ambassador Networks in different states. 

Darrell Bock: 

You'd send ambassadors to the north? 

Bryan English: 

Oh yeah. Our director in Delaware of all places is having a phenomenal impact. But the Daniel Impact is the sort of ministry that has planted these around the country. And the reason they chose that was if you look at Daniel's story, he had every opportunity to sit at the king's table, drink the king's wine, eat the king's food, and he instead chose to approach that whole relationship from a different perspective. He said no to having a seat at the table. And as a result, he wasn't tied to that one king. In fact, he served four kings in two different complete empires. 

The only way you can have that sort of influence over that amount of time is if God's showing His favor and giving you those opportunities. And so that's why we can have success in a state like Delaware and in Texas, Iowa and in Florida, and in DC. Because when pastors walk in, if they have their pastor hat on, so to speak, they're not looking to engage in a transactional relationship. They're there to be ambassadors for Christ and to go where God will provide opportunity. 

Steven Eng: 

Just to springboard on what Bryan's saying, Bryan's saying so many good things. The other thought I had related to how do we help pastors is I often tell them that maybe you shouldn't preach on that issue, but you should set up a class. Because I think a pastor's job is also to facilitate dialogue. For instance, our Health of the Nation resource now, RightNow Media came out with a video series that's free on our website in the RightNow Media catalog. We raise eight really hot-button issues, but there's a bible say, discussion guide and guidelines for how to talk about issues that we would rather avoid. And so I think to create those sort of environments with guidelines within the church, and let people have a voice and with reminding them to be respectful and be good listeners and to practice how to do that with each other helps us to engage, not only within the church, but in society. I just think we can't do too much of that sort of thing. 

Darrell Bock: 

You all are also trying then to encourage the kinds of conversations even across parties and across political views to help people hopefully understand one another a little better as opposed to simply just digging in in relationship to the positions that they have. There used to be a statement that was very popular years ago when I was growing up about politics that I don't hear about very much, and that is, "Politics is the art of compromise." I don't hear that anymore. I don't see the illustration I used to use, two very old men when I was growing up, Tip O'Neill and Everett Dirksen, different parties, but who obviously spent a lot of time talking to one another about the policies that they were having to craft together and to figure out how can we calibrate the virtues that we each hold to because we belong to this political party, but with some awareness of a virtue that may be coming from another political party that needs to be a part of the conversation. 

Bryan English: 

I think we lost that as our culture became less and less Christian. When I was a kid, when y'all were young, I think our country had enough of a Christian culture that even if you weren't a believer and if you weren't attending a church, you still had sort of a common sense of right and wrong, up and down, black and white. We all shared a culture. And as we have become increasingly post-Christian as a nation, I think we've lost that capacity to have those common bonds, and so you see this polarization increasing. I agree that there's an aspect of what we've lost that is really appealing. At the same time, I think it's in that environment that what the church provides and what the Gospel offers is an increasing stark contrast. I just think that the light shines so bright in that dark space- 

Darrell Bock: 

That there's an opportunity. 

Bryan English: 

… that there's an opportunity there that is maybe unique. 

Steven Eng: 

I think, Darrell, bringing up the word compromise, I think we need to remind people that we don't need to compromise our biblical convictions. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Steven Eng: 

We can compromise on certain policies knowing that maybe it's an incremental process of getting where we need to go. That's going to take a lot of prayer and discipleship and time. Policies are not going to fix the human heart, but we can advance policies step by step. I think we've lost that understanding. We can still have deeply held convictions, but compromise sometimes knowing that we keep praying and working towards better ends in the long run. 

Darrell Bock: 

I sometimes find myself thinking, I sometimes will talk to someone who's coming from a very different place, and I find they actually share a value that I have; they just apply it differently. And so that becomes the discussion when we get from the what to the how, et cetera, that we're, "Okay, I share this value with you. Let's talk about how that works in this particular area, and try and sort through both where we can take a step towards one another, but also maybe in some cases recognition, no, that we really do have a difference here that's pretty fundamental." Even that is worth knowing. I tell people, "When you're in a difficult conversation, to actually understand what it is that you're talking about and the nature of what might divide you, and to do that not out of a hostile motive, but out of really an attempt to understand the nature of the difference." That's really a healthy conversation. 

Bryan English: 

If you could have that disagreement without losing track of the fact that the person on the other side is created in the image of God, that God dearly loves them, that Jesus died for them, it changes your perspective and takes a little bit of the bite out of your approach. Because if you care about the person, the policy is maybe not the focus so much. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. Well, I want to thank you guys for taking your time to share with us about what you do. It's an interesting role, it's a challenging role today because of where we find ourselves, and yet it's also a significant role. The idea of the church being able to be really a servant in the midst of helping us be good citizens is a very worthy pursuit of time and energy. I thank you all not just for taking the time with us, but for doing the kind of work that you do that allows a voice of the church to be heard in halls and in the midst of legislation that inevitably we end up not just caring about but end up being impacted by. So thank you all very, very much for being with us. 

Bryan English: 

Thank you for having us. 

Steven Eng: 

Thank you, Darrell. It's been a delight. 

Darrell Bock: 

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