Taylor Swift, the Gospel, and Being Human

Kasey Olander: 

Welcome to The Table podcast, where we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of theology to everyday life. I'm Kasey Olander. I'm the web content specialist here at the Hendrick Center at Dallas Theological Seminary, and we thank you for joining us today. I don't know about you, but I'm feeling 22, because today, our topic of conversation is Taylor Swift. I mentioned that we discuss issues of God and culture, and so I think it's safe to say that Taylor Swift is a cultural phenomenon. Here to talk about that topic with us today are two esteemed guests. One of them is Todd Agnew. He's a professional musician and department chair of the Media Arts and Worship Department here at DTS. Todd, thanks for being here. 

Todd Agnew: 

No, thanks for having me. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. We are also joined by Sarah Griffith, who is finishing her master's here at DTS, and she's going to go work on a daemon at Houston Christian Seminary. Thanks for being here, Sarah. 

Sarah Griffith: 

Thank you. I'm so excited. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. I'm pumped about this because, like I said, I think that it's … I don't have to do very much introduction for who Taylor Swift is as a cultural phenomenon. She is a musician who has transcended many genres, but let me just read for you a couple of her records that she's broken. Trevin Wax summarized this well in his article for the Gospel Coalition. As of this recording, her most recent album, the Tortured Poets Department, is her 14th number one on Billboard, which is an achievement that is surpassed only by the Beatles. It's the seventh of her album to sell more than a million copies in a single week. She leads all female artists for the most top 5, 10, 20, and top 40 hits, as well as for overall chart appearances. And plus, she's the only artist in history to claim all of the Billboard top 10 spots at the same time, so kind of a big deal. 

Her Eras Tour contributed more than $5 billion to the US economy. If those things are not impressive accomplishments, then I'm not sure what is. Just to start off our discussion, so that we know where we're coming from, let's put our cards on the table, pun intended. Do you like Taylor Swift? Where do you stand with her? What's your experience? Todd, we'll start with you. 

Todd Agnew: 

I am not as big a Taylor Swift fan as Sarah is. 

Kasey Olander: 

Well, is anyone? 

Todd Agnew: 

Yes. 

Kasey Olander: 

Okay. That's a good point. 

Todd Agnew: 

One of them lives in my house. 

Kasey Olander: 

Okay. 

Todd Agnew: 

I was informed last night that the wrong member of our family was chosen for this podcast. I think, as a musician, I've always respected Taylor as a songwriter. She's really, really gifted and has worked really hard as a songwriter. Everything else, I'm like, "She's good." The Eras Tour, I took my daughter to, and it's one of the most impressive concerts I've ever seen in my life. Just work ethic wise, it was crazy. I don't have my own Taylor Swift playlist or- 

Kasey Olander: 

Not yet. 

Sarah Griffith: 

I'll send you mine. 

Todd Agnew: 

My room is not decorated with any posters, so I'm not that level of fan. 

Kasey Olander: 

Fair enough. Sarah? 

Sarah Griffith: 

Well, if my outfit, which is what I wore to the Eras Tour concert doesn't say enough, yes, I am a fan. My daughter and I have been fans since she came out in, I think it was 2006, and have followed every album. I think, for me, she's important for a couple of different things. One, just personally, her ability to lament has been extremely helpful in my life. But also, as an advocate for women, I really find a great role model for people, especially women, of somebody who has come up against that glass ceiling and push through and I think has done it with a lot of grace. She's received the backlash, but it's just a great picture of advocating for women. 

Kasey Olander: 

Mm-hmm. Your outfit is bejeweled. I appreciate it. 

Sarah Griffith: 

Thank you. I appreciate it. 

Kasey Olander: 

Appropriate. 

Sarah Griffith: 

Yes. 

Kasey Olander: 

Oh, I should also mention that I, too, enjoy Taylor Swift. I am not as early an adopter as Sarah. I probably got on the bandwagon around 1989, the album, not the year. 

Todd Agnew: 

At her birth I became a fan. 

Kasey Olander: 

I've been following her. No, no. Taylor, if you're listening, that is not the case. 

Sarah Griffith: 

Taylor, if you're listening, please call me right now. 

Kasey Olander: 

I can't imagine that she wouldn't be listening, but yes, we would love to talk to you and not just about you. And so, if you're interested in chatting about what you believe spiritually or otherwise and about your music, The Table at DTS.edu would be great. 

Sarah Griffith: 

The phone lines are now open. 

Kasey Olander: 

Whenever you're ready, it's fine. Now that we've established the level of Swifties who are in the room currently, why do we think in general that she is such a cultural phenomenon? Sarah, you talked about yourself and your daughter. Todd, you also talked about your daughter. It's spanning different generations as well. There are not just Swifties in a particular demographic, she is wildly popular. Why do we feel like that is? 

Sarah Griffith: 

Well, I think it's several things. I think, one, women advocacy, like I said. I think, two, she is very committed to creating a community that's kind to one another. I think that, as much as people love to yell at each other on the internet, there seems to be this through line that kindness is the top essentially, unless you make the Swifties mad, that's a whole nother thing. But also, I think that, like I said, she has the ability to lament. I think, somewhere in the church, we've lost that deep sorrow, just lament. We've said to people, "Don't worry. God's going to redeem this," and that doesn't feel good when you're in that deep place. 

I think that when we look at what has surrounded her and what is that serving the community that has surrounded her, I think it's the ability to feel your feelings and it's okay, and you keep going. But then also, this camaraderie she creates through being kind. I'm sorry, she is a marketing genius, with all of her Easter eggs, it gets just everybody going. And then, I think Todd said this too, her work ethic. She is not taking it for granted. She's doing all these different things. Yeah, I think it just really, it strikes a nerve with people. You do not have that kind of following if you're not speaking to somebody's longing on the inside. 

Kasey Olander: 

Oh yeah. Longing is a good word. She articulates so much of that in her lyrics and in her music. A lot of times, the core of it is we just find her so relatable, even though she's speaking to her own life and circumstances a lot of times. Todd, what would you add to that? 

Todd Agnew: 

Yeah. I think everything Sarah said are reasons that she went from being somebody that liked her music that got to this level of fandom, and then, because of all those reasons went to Swiftie level. I think that's a great explanation. I was talking to my daughter about it last night doing some research. 

Kasey Olander: 

Your work ethic too is admirable. 

Todd Agnew: 

She started with surface reasons. "Well, I think people are interested in her dating life, because that's things people care about. These guys and her response to that." I was like, "Yeah, but what's the real? That's what you think about everybody, but why do you like her?" We just kept digging and we got closer and closer and closer to it until she finally just stopped and went, "I think it's because the things I feel she's put into words." And I was like, "Yeah." 

Sarah Griffith: 

That'll do it. 

Todd Agnew: 

Yeah, that's what I thought. I wasn't going to make you say that, because I wasn't sure. That's what I felt that Taylor was doing with this, at least that generation. I don't want to take this too far, but it almost reminds me of Bob Dylan. Dylan was talking about what the people right then were thinking about. The fact that he's talking about politics and war and all these things, that's what everybody was worried about and he was saying those things out loud. We're in the 2020s in the middle of a mental health crisis and all these things, and Taylor is going, "This is how I feel about life." And I think a lot of people are going, "Oh yeah. That. That's what I've been doing." 

Sarah Griffith: 

Somebody else feels it, yes. 

Todd Agnew: 

I think that has made a lot of people go, "Yes, yes. I'm with you. You are taking my journey." Even though they know that they weren't breaking up with Jake Gyllenhaal, but still, somehow you felt something that I have not been able to put into words, and I think that's been really powerful. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah, and that's the paradox of good storytelling or creating art as in being so concrete and specific with her experiences, it makes it that much more universal. Like you said, we have an outdated Jake Gyllenhaal, but we've all had feelings of lament, of sorrow, of rejection and fear and all of those things that, especially because a lot of times they're not talked about, they live underneath the surface, and so finally, for her to be so public in these expressions is freeing and refreshing in a way. 

Sarah Griffith: 

Absolutely. Mm-hmm. 

Todd Agnew: 

It is. Dr. Sandra Glahn teaches here at DTS, and she talks a lot about that, about using concrete images, and Taylor's great at it. But it also makes me look at that song and look at my daughter and look at all these people and go, because if you listen to the verses of Taylor's songs, they're so specific. I drove past this and that was over there, and your jacket was hanging here, and you're just like, "How can any of us connect to that?" But I remember Dr. Glahn saying that in a creative writing class. She's like, "Yes, but these details, even if you don't have that detail, it still connects to your story in some way. When I describe the smells in my grandmother's kitchen, even though my smells are different than the smells in your grandmother's kitchen, you automatically connect to that." And so, I think those details, you're connecting to her story. 

Sarah Griffith: 

My experience with the concert was interesting, because we saw her in LA, so there's 68,000 people there. The fans that experienced the Eras Tour became an organism onto themselves. They started the friendship bracelets, they started this whole, I don't know, culture in and of itself. But I do have to say, because I am a Christian and I am a believer, I'm standing there with my daughter and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this is amazing." But you do feel that pang of like, "Oh my gosh, if these people knew that Jesus would fill what they're trying to fill," and I go right to the source because I'm like, "How do I evangelize to Taylor when I meet her and we're friends?" 

Kasey Olander: 

Well, I think she's probably emailed us already, so we'll just have to check that after. 

Sarah Griffith: 

Oh, good, good, good. Yeah, yeah. I'm pretty sure I'm going to be in her wedding to Travis, so I'll work on that. It is that like, "Man, this is so cool." And also, you're like, "Ugh, this hurts my heart for". I know that there were many believers there. You are like, "Ugh, I know what you're looking for and I know what she's filling, and I know that we got to go a step further." 

Kasey Olander: 

I am so glad you brought that up. I couldn't have done a better segue. Let's talk about that because how does the gospel feed into these longings? We've surfaced a number of things like a longing to express our feelings, a longing to lament, a longing for community. How does the gospel then fill these things? Obviously, we have the church as the body of Christ, like we need each other. As one body with many parts, we know that we have a sense of calling to one another, in addition to following Jesus. What are some other ways that the gospel is really the ultimate answer to what people are searching for in Taylor Swift? 

Todd Agnew: 

I'll go first just because I have a couple of answers, and if Sarah takes mine, then I might be out or I'm fairly sure that Taylor's, I mean, Sarah's going to have a lot more answers. I think one is the issue of love. There's so much longing for love in Taylor's story, in her life and in her lyrics. Because of that, obviously, love is a large part of the gospel. That shouldn't take a lot of explanation, but we should also probably take the moment to do it and to say, "Hey, God loves you. Whoever you are, whatever you've done, whatever your story is, there is the one who is love loves you perfectly and completely." Oddly enough, that doesn't change the fact that there are fans at a Taylor Swift concert that are believers that still feel that hurt. The fact that we are perfectly loved doesn't mean that we don't feel unloved. It doesn't mean that we aren't wishing that we had the relationship that she is also wanting or grieving or whichever version of the song, whichever song we're on right now. 

Sarah Griffith: 

Right, right. 

Todd Agnew: 

I think that's an obvious one. Honestly, that's a thing that we run into all the time, which is God, who I can't see, hear, taste, or touch, loves me, but I still have grown up in the story that I've been told about a person loving me and how does the spiritual experience fill this personal emotional hole that I have, and that's a real thing that we're not going to solve in a podcast. This is why you go to church, this is why you read your Bible, this is why you pray, this is why you go to therapy. This will be all the things. This is why you're in community, is that we are learning what that means. Love is the first one. The second thing that I think really jumps out at me is identity. 

Kasey Olander: 

Oh yeah. 

Todd Agnew: 

I think there's this really big theme in Taylor's music about identity, and it's often I'm taking my identity back from the person that I gave to you. You broke my heart, but I am stronger. I am worth something. It's this continual take back. Or the female part of the story, she's also told that I am worth something as a woman, even though I've had these experiences and other people have said otherwise, and is taking this identity back. But as somebody who struggled with identity, which I assume probably everybody is one of those, but I'm just saying that I am that person that … I think you can understand like, when you're a musician, it's an exciting thing, but there's also a day when your song goes down the chart and nobody ever prepares you for that. 

Everybody, your whole life has pushed you towards going up the chart and no one ever mentioned that day. Fortunately, God is very kind to me that he sent me through a decade of prep work, so when that happened, it wasn't a huge deal for me, but I was watching people that were 10 years younger than I was that didn't have any environment to process that. What does that mean? The people that liked me now like fill-in-the-blank better than me, and I felt like I was in junior high again. 

Kasey Olander: 

Mm-hmm. 

Sarah Griffith: 

Oh my gosh, yeah. 

Todd Agnew: 

Being a musician is like going to junior high and releasing a record and making friends and then you have summer vacation, and then, when you come back for your next year, you have no friends again. You're just going to put yourself out there again and see if they like you this time. 

Sarah Griffith: 

What happens, yeah. Exactly. 

Todd Agnew: 

Identity is a weird deal that, especially as an artist, you attach it to what you can do. I think that's probably true for everybody, but again, I'm not those people, so I don't want to assume. It was so important to me to go to a retreat one day that was a church staff, and we had another pastor from another church come in and he pulled all the men aside and was like, "I want you to take this paper and fill it up. Who are you?" And I was like, "Oh, I can do this. I've been to counseling and I've been to this and I've done all this work and I've thought about all these things and I'm a thinker and a philosopher and a theologian and I'm a pastor and I've done all this stuff." He was just like, "Where is Son of God on that page?" And I was like. 

Kasey Olander: 

I wrote it down. 

Sarah Griffith: 

It's the bridge. 

Todd Agnew: 

Yeah. And he was just like, "That should have been your paper." I am not saying, "Hey, that's the right answer," but what it did for me was I had to go back and realize that everything that I am that is separated from God is changeable, is moldable. My abilities, my looks, everything about me that I think this is who I am has changed over time. I'm 54 years old, I am different. I'm not capable of all the things I've ever been capable of. I didn't turn out to be some of the things that I thought I had the potential to be. 

But when you're looking at who I am in relationship to God, if he is a father, I am his child and his identity will never change, so that part of my identity will never change. He is love and is a lover, therefore, I am loved. However I may feel that I don't deserve that, it's true, I can't change it. Once I started getting ahold of that, I'm like, "Oh, I have an identity that does not change from moment to moment. Whatever you say about me, whatever you think about me, these things are always going to be true." 

I think that she is hitting on those and wrestling with some of those issues, and I think that resonates, because identity is a huge struggle. I think this is something the gospel is able to go, "Hey, that thing that," because he gave you up and you feel like that is defining you, it doesn't, because there is a He that will never let you go, and that is always going to be true, and there's a security in that. That's all. 

Sarah Griffith: 

I love it. I love it. I would say, when I heard you say identity, that I feel like, as far as identity is concerned, she calls us to live authentically. I think that people are tired of living inside the ideal. And so, I would say, that's why we have kids who are, they're really struggling just in general on top of it just being hard to be a kid going through middle school and high school. I think that in the LGBTQ community, they're tired of being forced into a box that doesn't fit, and so she's calling for authenticity, and I think that it's freedom to be what you are. Now, whether or not we line that up with the gospel and we find that it doesn't quite line up, we are never going to get to somebody unless they feel free to be themselves in front of God, so I think identity is one thing. 

And then, I think that she … Okay, I'm going to say this while I'm smiling, because going to disassociate so I can get through it without crying. This summer for me has been the summer that I've realized my motivation for a lot of my life has been to find legitimacy. I have found myself in a position where I've been believing that my experiences, my feelings, those different things are not legitimate. You say, "This is what I feel or this is what I've experienced," and somebody comes back at you with, "No, that's not it," or, "No, you don't feel that way." This summer, through counseling, I've realized that that's been a fatal flaw for me and it's motivated me to do a lot of things that I don't think God was asking me to do. 

And so, for me, as far as the gospel in Taylor, having somebody say these feelings are real, these experiences are real, and like Todd was saying, even though my kitchen may not have smelled like hers, I have been standing over a lookout could have followed my fears all the way down, like this is me trying. I feel like that's been a really big help for me to have words to say to God, "I don't feel like, I know I read, I'm a seminary student, I understand that you love me and that my legitimacy comes from you." 

And somehow in the same universe, I've had these really hard things happen and I don't have anybody going, "Yeah, that must've really hurt." And so, I think, in a lot of ways, God used that to legitimize me far enough along to go, "Gosh, there is this gaping hole in my soul, and he was like, 'Hi, it's me. I'm the God. It's me.'" And I was like, I think when I fell into God's arms, it was because I finally was like, "No, what I am feeling really is real, and it really hurts, and I need somebody to save me." 

That's where I feel like, as far as the gospel is concerned, that's what we can almost learn from her is like, "Hey, don't come in hot telling people like, 'Oh, God will redeem it,' or, 'You can do all things.'" Just these silly things that we say to dismiss or make people feel they have to be positive all the time, because you're a believer and you shouldn't be sad. I think Todd and I both would admit we've had different experiences in that and it hasn't always been happy. 

Okay, one more thing and then we can move on. I would just say, as far as the gospel and moving it out into the world, personally how it connects to the gospel, but also how we, as a community, can push the gospel out. I think when we see the phenomenon of Taylor and people following her and all of that, I think there is a community that are, they call her a witch, they say she's the antichrist, just all these different things where they're tearing her down. I think that that is a very simple answer to a question we're not asking. 

We're like, the question we're asking is how do we get these people to stop worshipping her? Well, tearing her down is not going to do that, because they're going to double-down and support her. I think what we're missing is, what can we learn from this phenomenon? What is she meeting? How can we get on board and support the people instead of demonizing that? That is part of Tortured Poets, is the fact that she has been completely lambasted by the Christian community. I just think we have something to learn from her, and even just marketing, those kinds of things. I think, when we … yeah. Yes, that's it. Stop that. 

Todd Agnew: 

Can we step back a minute in that conversation? Because we went past something really quickly, and I don't want anybody to misunderstand what Sarah was saying, because she brought up Philippians and I can do all things as a negative, and I want everybody listening to know that Sarah doesn't, she doesn't not believe in the New Testament. 

Sarah Griffith: 

Sarah affirms scripture 110%. 

Kasey Olander: 

We all love the Bible. 

Todd Agnew: 

Yeah. What she's saying is that people that are connecting to Taylor's music are listening to this song and going, "All the detail on this song, this is real. I have lived this, I know it's real." If you take one sentence out of context from the Bible and try to band-aid strip over that and go, "This fixes all of it," because that verse isn't out of context in where it came from, we have to say, "Hey, those two things have to integrate." They're not the same level of importance, but you can't take one and just swipe the other part off the table, especially when somebody has gone, "This, this is me." If they're identifying with that and then you do this, then they feel like you've just swept them aside and put a Band-Aid on something. 

Kasey Olander: 

Band-aids don't fix bullet holes. 

Todd Agnew: 

They don't, but the word of God can. I don't know, the metaphor might be going a little weird here, but there can be a connection to those, but it has to be a rich conversation. It has to be a, "Hey, let's actually spend the time and dig and see what's going on here believing in the truth and the validity of the word and its power to change and let it come in and engage this." That's enough, yeah. 

Sarah Griffith: 

I love that, yeah. I think, well, yeah, let me say again. Sarah 100% affirms scripture, and I love it very, very much. I think, for me, there seems to be this sort of like, yeah, just, "Oh, this can solve this problem." You say, like when I was diagnosed with cancer last year, "Oh, you just don't know what God's going to do with this." And I'm like, "Really? Because I can't get out of bed and feed my family and serve my family." Jumping to the end where I know, and on this side of cancer, I can say, "Whoa! There has been so many things that God has done in that journey." But when you jump to the end, because you don't want to have that lament period, I don't think people actually really deal with it. I think they shove it down until maybe they're 46 and they are starting to not be able to shove it down. 

Kasey Olander: 

Hypothetically. 

Sarah Griffith: 

I've heard from a friend. I think, yeah, I affirm scripture, don't jump to the end is my summary. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. There are so many good things that you guys have just talked about that I want to highlight. One of them is this, we have some other episodes, so I won't get too further into it, but we have, one of them is a Christian view of emotions and then understanding trauma, where we talk about ways to pastorally engage with people. So much comes down to empathy and compassion and meeting people where they are, instead of being so quick to silver lining it be, "But God will be doing something cool." So many times, what people need is for someone to come alongside them and say, "I'm so sorry," and just leave it at that. Because just the way you can't jump to the end, you can't assume what's going to happen. Jesus walked alongside so many people, like when Jesus weeps instead of being like, "Don't worry, just wait five minutes." He enters in with such compassion, which is what we see in the incarnation in general. 

Sarah Griffith: 

Absolutely, yeah. 

Kasey Olander: 

The fact that that's something that people are looking for makes it really understandable and relatable that people are able to connect with Taylor Swift so much. I feel like it's obvious and almost goes without saying, it's obvious that there are a lot of things that Taylor Swift depicts that we wouldn't affirm as believers. Like we're not fans of witchcraft or she doesn't uphold a Christian sexual ethic, where we believe as marriage is between a man and a woman for a lifetime and sexual fidelity within it, so there are a number of things that I feel are pretty obvious. 

Todd, like you were saying, we don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water and be like, "Oh, well then nothing she says should ever be engaged with," because, one, we discuss issues with God and culture. It's worth looking at if she's this much of a phenomenon. And then two, there are things that are good, true, and beautiful in a lot of things like art and music that we want to look at respectfully and honestly and we can't come to engage with something authentically if we already have put up whatever blinders for judgment and stuff. Empathy, I think, is such a crucial piece of the way that we engage with one another. 

Sarah Griffith: 

That's awesome, yeah. 

Kasey Olander: 

I guess, another side, adjacent thing that I want to ask is, what is the value of storytelling? Because I feel like that's also so much of what she's doing is telling the story. We talked about the concreteness, shoutout to Dr. Glahn and her writing classes for showing us that. We're fans of her too and she's been on an episode of The Table podcast. 

Sarah Griffith: 

I'm also, I've coined the term for people who are fans of Dr. Glahn, and I guarantee you, wherever she is listening to this, she's about to die because we call ourselves Glahnies. 

Kasey Olander: 

I kid you not, I was thinking about that. Okay, that's good to know that you've already done that. 

Sarah Griffith: 

Yes. 

Kasey Olander: 

I was like, "Swifties, that's the obvious parallel." 

Sarah Griffith: 

Yeah. I will probably, she'll never talk to me again, but yes, yes. She's been a very vital part of me coming through these kinds of things, and so yeah. 

Kasey Olander: 

She probably showed a lot of empathy and showed up with compassion. 

Sarah Griffith: 

100%. 

Todd Agnew: 

I think she'll talk to you again, but I think as she's listening to this, she's going to text you something, a very strong opinion about that. 

Kasey Olander: 

So Taylor Swift, among other artists, is engaging in storytelling as a medium and hitting people in just such a deep way that resonates with just such a wide swath of people. I think, too, as we're … I think that there are a number of ways that we could have Taylor Swift to be a bridge into spiritual conversations that are not just about what we condemn as Christians or what scripture does not affirm the different things like that. 

But I think that one of those ways is about, we've talked a lot about lament and about feelings, and the Psalms are full of that. The Psalter is filled with not just rejoicing, but also, it's lamenting in the valley. Even the prophets as well, there's a ton of real people in scripture who are coming to God with their authentic selves, honestly wondering, "Where are you?" It's not that they don't believe in the omnipresence of God, but it's them expressing this emotion that's like, "Frankly, I don't see what you're doing or where you are right now." And so, the fact that we see that modeled in scripture at the same time as we see God's character and consistency modeled is, I think, an example of what it looks like to just walk through a normal life, that we feel these different tensions or we feel these things that seem contradictory just at the same time. We're happy, free, confused and lonely at the same time. 

Sarah Griffith: 

Yes ma'am, we are. But in the best way. 

Todd Agnew: 

When you look at the structure of a lament psalm, because if you're not familiar with that, the lament Psalms follow a specific structure, and we won't go over it because that's not what we're doing right now. There is this the complaint and there's these painful wrestlings of things, and there's one moment in there where David or Asaph or whoever's writing goes, "I know you're still good," but that's it. That's the whole purpose. There's one thing, and they go right back to, "But this is terrible." Honestly, Taylor's songs are missing that one line. 

Sarah Griffith: 

Honest;y, yeah. 

Todd Agnew: 

They're doing everything else and going, "This is what hurts. This is what doesn't make sense. This is how I feel. This is what seems like is going wrong." The Psalmist is doing the exact same thing, but in one sentence goes, "In the midst of all of that, I know that you're good," and I assume that Taylor doesn't. 

Sarah Griffith: 

But we don't know. 

Todd Agnew: 

Yeah, and that is my hope for her. But that she's … I guess what I'm trying to say is that a Taylor Swift song and a lament Psalm overlap a whole lot, contentwise and artistically. There's this one part that is really important. 

Sarah Griffith: 

It is a pivotal sentence. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. 

Todd Agnew: 

But David doesn't sit there. He doesn't even let that pivot change the course of the song. He just goes, "I'm going to recognize that and come back," which to me, feels really weird, because I grew up, in our current culture, where once you turn to the Jesus part of this story, you're going to stay there and you're going to stay in the major key and you're going to keep going. But that's not what lament Psalm does. 

Sarah Griffith: 

No. 

Todd Agnew: 

I think there's really a benefit from that of just looking at it and going, "Hey, look how honest this is. Look how much it's going, 'Hey, this is where I am. This is what hurts right now,'" and all of that was the design for part of how the church was supposed to worship. That's the structure of it with the recognition that in the midst of that, there is still a God and he is still good, and that connects it to all the other songs. But in that moment, we can stay here and just go, "I know.: 

Sarah Griffith: 

You're there, yup. You're real. 

Todd Agnew: 

I'm going to say this for a minute, and then we can come back to it. I think there's a real grounded beauty in that. 

Sarah Griffith: 

Yeah. I do love that. I think that is our job as academics, as people who have a strong deep faith. Our job is to connect the phenomenon of Taylor Swift with God. Am I going to quote Taylor in a paper I turn into Crichter? No. Am I going to her for my theology? Absolutely not. But what I can do is go, "Hey, you love this song. I love this song. But let me tell you that one sentence that's missing, which is the most important sentence, because I affirm scripture, that one sentence plays out here. Let me tell you how that plays out. 

I think that is such a fruitful way of having a conversation about her that, yeah, I wish people could feel the confidence of God to tell us, "Hey, she's not thwarting my plan. She's meeting needs, and maybe a merciful way. Don't be afraid to step into that. You're not going to … you have the grounding of who I am, of what I want, of who I want to reach, and you can do that. You're strong enough to step into it." 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. We really should probably wrap it up. I've loved how this discussion has gone, but I want to give each of you a chance to say just like a one sentence closing thought about how we, as believers, should engage with Taylor Swift. 

Sarah Griffith: 

I think I just said mine. 

Kasey Olander: 

Oh, perfect. I liked it. 

Todd Agnew: 

Good job. 

Sarah Griffith: 

Thanks. 

Todd Agnew: 

I think we can recognize that Taylor may express how we feel and recognize that God is the only one that can fix and fill and heal any of those things that, I'm sorry, Sarah, but it's not going to be Travis Kelce. He's not going to fix her. If that relationship doesn't work out or if it does, that's not the thing that fixes the thing that's broken in all of her songs. That's not what it is. But that being said, that doesn't mean that your spouse is not a beautiful gift from the Lord that is a wonderful piece of what he is doing in your life. There can be that tension of going, "Hey, she is expressing some of the things that I feel, and there's something that I know and believe, and both of those things can be true." 

Kasey Olander: 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, over the course of this conversation, we've covered a lot of ground. We've talked about different ways that Taylor Swift music addresses and expresses universal human longings. We've talked about storytelling and the way that she does that really masterfully. We talked about the fact that, of course, there's things that she says or supports that we don't affirm as believers because we follow Jesus no matter what. I just appreciate how you guys have been willing to engage in such a robust discussion, and I hope this serves as an example for people and how we should engage with culture, in general, that we can point out the ways, the things that are good, true, and beautiful, the things that point out our humanity, and then also look at how is the gospel, the ultimate answer to our human longings and look at things that, of course, scripture doesn't affirm this and that, and be able to sift through it in a thoughtful and open-minded kind of way, obviously, underneath the Lordship of Jesus and affirmation of scripture. 

Sarah Griffith: 

Absolutely. One thing I love. 

Kasey Olander: 

Sarah and Todd, thank you all so much for being here today. 

Todd Agnew: 

Absolutely. Thanks for having us. 

Sarah Griffith: 

Yeah, thanks. This has been fun. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah, super fun. We want to thank you for listening today. If you like our show, go ahead and leave us a rating or review on your favorite podcast app. It's a great way to support the show and help other people to discover us. We hope that you'll join us next time when we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of theology to everyday life.