A Theology of Working Women

Speaker 1:

Welcome to The Table Podcast, where we discuss issues of God and culture, brought to you by Dallas Theological Seminary.

Bill Hendricks:

Well, hello, I'm Bill Hendricks, the Executive Director for Christian Leadership at the Hendricks Center. It's my privilege to welcome you to The Table Podcast, where we discuss issues of God and culture. And once again, in this podcast, we're going to go to an issue that goes directly to the core of our culture, which is our work and ask the question, how does our faith apply to our day-to-day work? And it's my special privilege to have in studio Joy Dahl, Dr. Joy Dahl, who is the executive director for Polished. And you've described Polished, Joy, as a organization that gathers women in the workplace to navigate that space and explore the faith together in authentic community. Tell us how you got involved in Polished and then we'll talk a little bit about specifically what you're doing there.

Dr. Joy Dahl:

Yes. So as you know, I did my doctoral work here at DTS, and it was about halfway through… I did master's and doctoral work, and about halfway through my master's program, I felt like God said, "Buckle up. We're going to go a whole new direction." And that direction was into this realm of theology of work. I'm a CFO by trade. I met Jesus at the age of 35. And so, I was really navigating a transition from before Christ to after Christ. And what does that mean in a workplace? And so, as I came through my doctoral work and really praying about what was next, I was approached by Kat Armstrong, who's the founder of Polished and asked if this is something that I would step in. She was ready to pass the baton and really allow Polished to go to the next level as a national organization.

Dr. Joy Dahl:

And so as I prayed about it and just knew that in my experience when I was a 30 something climbing the corporate ladder, I was really wrestling with what is my purpose in life? How do I find what's next? I know there has to be more to life than what I'm experiencing right now. And so it just really resonated with me and I decided to step in. My first day on the job was the first day of COVID restrictions. And so for an organization that has at the time, eight to ten in-person events every month and we went to zero. So it was quite a shift, but God has really opened up the door. And I just love being able to come alongside women and walking the journey of life and faith and work together.

Bill Hendricks:

Now, I just want to press into what you said that you have a background as a CFO. So like before you ever came to Dallas Seminary, like you were in the corporate world and working in the finance sector. Tell us a little bit about that.

Dr. Joy Dahl:

Yeah. So I started my career at Pricewaterhouse and then since leaving there, spent most of my career in startup and high growth companies. I had a niche in broadcasting, was CFO for a regional broadcasting company in New York, and then had my own CFO consulting practice for ten years before coming to DTS.

Bill Hendricks:

So let me ask a question. You said that was before you ever came to Christ, right? Most of it.

Dr. Joy Dahl:

A big part of it. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Bill Hendricks:

So as you think back to your own experience and the experience of others in that corporate space, and I realized there's a lot of other work besides corporate work. If I can ask the question this way, Joy, talk to me about your own sense of purpose or meaning. You're trying to do this job and you're getting paid well for it and all of the problems and challenges and opportunities that come with that kind of work, but just take me inside your soul, if you will. How does work affect how you think about yourself and why you're here and any sense of purpose for your life?

Dr. Joy Dahl:

Yeah. So my story, it was when I was 13, my father passed away and my final promise to him was daddy, one day I'm going to make you proud. And to me at age 13, what that meant was becoming a success. So for the next 20 years-

Bill Hendricks:

A financial success.

Dr. Joy Dahl:

Yeah, success in the world.

Bill Hendricks:

Right.

Dr. Joy Dahl:

And so for the next 20 years, I did everything I could to become rich and successful in the world. By age 33, became CFO of a broadcasting company. And by the world standards, I had it all. But inside, even though I believed in God, I prayed to God, I believed I was Christian, but I did not know Christ. And so I had it all yet I had nothing. I was broken, continued to say, what is my purpose? Where is there meaning?

Dr. Joy Dahl:

And so I think that a lot of people, they're pursuing what we would call the American dream. We're looking for if I could just get this or if I can just get to this level or when I get here, whether we know Christ or not, there are these things that we're trying to attain. But from my experience, I can say that that really is worth nothing. That it is our walk with Christ and the meaning that we have, and there is meaning in work, the work itself, the flourishing of the community, the relationships we have at work. We have opportunity as Christ followers to interact with people that pastors and church staff will never reach. And so I believe that our workplaces are our strategic mission fields.

Bill Hendricks:

Well, you've raised a couple issues there. So let me take them in turn. First of all, you said there is meaning in work. In other words, you're suggesting that even though the work world and the success that you gained from it was not the answer to the hole in your soul, if I could put it that way, you're suggesting nonetheless, that work itself has some kind of intrinsic value. Is that correct?

Dr. Joy Dahl:

Absolutely.

Bill Hendricks:

Tell me more.

Dr. Joy Dahl:

Yeah. And I think that this is a really important message, especially for people in the church. Many of us, myself included, before going through my doctoral work, I believed that if I wanted to do something important for God, I needed to become a missionary or go work for the church. I needed to do something in a sacred space.

Bill Hendricks:

Got you.

Dr. Joy Dahl:

And that would be important. What I did in my day-to-day, I was a CFO. I'm working with numbers. Yes, I'm helping companies grow and develop, but what does that really have in terms of God's kingdom? And so it's really a perspective shift and understanding that there is intrinsic value to the flourishing of our families, our communities, our society in the work we do whatever that space is, but also that there is this opportunity in the relationships we have, integrity and work, how we pray and care for people, prayer and care in the workplace, whether they know we're praying for them or not, we're able to bring the power of the Holy Spirit into the workplace. I think that those two things, the work itself, relationships at work, and to know that we all work. We're made in the image of a God who works and regardless of the context, we all have valuable work. Work in the church is not more sacred or a higher value of work than work in a restaurant or a school or as an accountant.

Bill Hendricks:

So you use the word flourishing. I'm assuming, and of course I've read your dissertation, so I'm not really assuming, but one of the places that first shows up is there in Genesis 1 where God says to his human creatures whom he's just created, the very first words he gives them are a bit of a mission statement, if you will, a mandate. Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, rule over it. And out of that, we get this concept that we as human beings are put here to cause the world and its people to flourish, right?

Dr. Joy Dahl:

Yeah, I think Genesis 1 is, 1 and 2 really, is an important place to start. We know it's the start of the Bible, but when you start looking at work and the very first verse of Genesis 1, "In the beginning, God created…"). Or in other words, in the beginning, God went to work and he began creating the good, good, good, very good. Then in this cultural mandate, Genesis 1:26-28, we see the Imago Dei, humanity created in the image of God, the creator, who is then inviting his creation, humanity, to join in his good, good, good work. And that's what we know is the cultural mandate in Genesis 1:28, to go continue my work.

Dr. Joy Dahl:

So we know that creation was made perfect by God, but it's perfect and not finished. And so he's inviting us in, all of humanity, whether they know Christ or not because obviously this is in the Old Testament before Christ, but we're invited to continue that good work of God. And then we see that as Christ followers come in with Ephesians 2:10, where it says we're his masterpiece created for good works that he's prepared for us. And I think that we're seeing again, the good, good, good of God. He's saying, hey, now as a Christ follower, you have an opportunity to continue that good work that I've created specifically for you. And that's how we continue this cultural mandate. So we really see that from Genesis all the way through to Revelation, it's a cultural progression, from the garden to the city, and it's this cultural progression that Christ is now inviting us into.

Bill Hendricks:

Well, you also use the words there all of humanity. So that opens up, I guess I'd say theologically, this whole idea of common grace that even though all of us as human beings are fallen, we're under the curse of Genesis 3. We'll get to that in a moment. Nonetheless, this cultural mandate out of Genesis 1 and 2 is still extended and applies to all of humanity. And there's what we call a common grace that God has given to all of humanity, a purpose for being here, even though so many people down through history and today, they have no knowledge of God or they don't care to follow God or they deny him or they rebel against him. Nonetheless, it's what you're saying work is a kind of a grace that God has given to us.

Dr. Joy Dahl:

I believe so. And again, I think if we look at the whole of scripture and then going into Revelation 21 where it says the best of all nations will be brought into the new Jerusalem. It's not saying the best of Christian development, it's the best of all of humanity. The architecture, the literature, the technology, music. All of the best creation by the created will be brought into that new city. And I think that that gives us then purpose and value to what is being created in our society today. It's not just what's happened in the past and it's not just what will happen in the future, but I think all of us are invited into that in the work, in the creation of our culture, and also again, in how we love and serve others well as we love and serve the Lord.

Bill Hendricks:

Well, so then you did talk about going into the workplace as Christ followers with a message. And of course that message is about Jesus and the gospel and that's required or necessary because of Genesis 3. So we get this fall. And it seems that traditionally, I guess the words traditionally certainly in the last several hundred years, Christians in the church have generally understood mission or missions to apply to taking the gospel message to the nations. And that means overseas travel and going to places, where people and in cultures where people haven't heard about Jesus. So, in light of that work, why should Christians be that concerned with what's going on in their day-to-day workplace? Isn't it more important that they be trying to reach some lost group or unreached people group in a further part of the world? And I think being a CFO, I love stats. So a few of the stats that just are near and dear to my heart, the American workplace has been deemed the third largest unreached people group in the world. And I know to your point, some people will say, well, that's really not a mission field, but if we look at it at the context of people that the church cannot or is not reaching, I think that it is important for us to view our daily lives that we are on a mission field. Christ has called us, equipped us, we have the experience that we've grown through our career to this point, our circles of influence, our passions, our giftings, and he's placed us there to be able to come

Dr. Joy Dahl:

Yeah, I think what comes to mind is kind of two things. First is we look at 2 Corinthians 5, again, my heart is for the theology of work because I feel like so many of us in the workplace just have not been taught a theology of work. And when we look at what theology of work means, it's the study of God's work, the work he does and the work that he ordains us to do. What he's inviting us in to do. And in 2 Corinthians 5, we're called as Christ followers. Anyone in Christ is a new creation and we are called as his ambassadors. So he has strategically placed us in our workplace mission fields, and I do believe that this constitutes the second part of this, as cross-cultural missions. The church and the workplace really are two different people groups with different languages, different expectations, different norms, and yet God has placed his people in the realm of workplaces that, again, the church will never reach.

Dr. Joy Dahl:

And I think being a CFO I love stats. So, a few of the stats that just are near and dear to my heart, the American workplace has been deemed the third largest unreached people group in the world. And I know to your point, some people will say, "Well you know, that's not really a mission field." But, if we look at it out of the context of people that the church cannot or is not reaching, I think that it is important for us to view our daily lives that we are on a mission field. Christ has called us, equipped us, we have the experience that we've grown through our career to this point, our circles of influence, our passions, our gifting and he's placed us there to be able to come alongside people to work with integrity and again, to really be his light bearers.

Dr. Joy Dahl:

And so I think that that's a big aspect of the importance of our work. For women, Polished, obviously we're focused on women. 45 million women in the US identify as Christian, working women. So 45 million working women in the US identify as Christian yet less than one third actively engage in faith community. So you have women who they may be like me thinking that they're a Christian, but not knowing Christ. They may be Christ followers, but feel like they don't have the ability to connect with like-minded women. And I think that there's a real need there.

Dr. Joy Dahl:

And then in my research looking at the church and many churches across the US, of the whole church body, less than 1% to 2% of the church body actually works in the church. So that means 98% to 99% of that church body is going every day into the world, into the workplace. And it is important for the church to be equipping us to go out as Christ ambassadors to carry the message of the gospel and to work as unto him in order to draw other people to him.

Bill Hendricks:

You and Polished, you talk about an unreached people group. And I know many of those who you work with specifically in Polished, and I want to ask about your sort of process or model here in a second, themselves are really, you mentioned unchurched. Like they have an inkling, they have a desire to move toward God, but they don't identify with any church to do that. And many are millennial women. Am I correct? And they're professionals.

Dr. Joy Dahl:

Yeah, that's true. And again, just being a CFO and loving stats, another stat before COVID is that 85% of unchurched women in the US were de-churched, meaning they had been in the church and they've left. Now, that was before COVID. So there are women who, again, they're seeking that purpose. They're seeking. They want more to life. They're looking at whether it's spirituality, whether it's a relationship with Christ, whether it's something in between, they are looking for a theology that gives them purpose. And if they're not learning it in the church, they'll learn a theology in the workplace, but it won't be biblical.

Bill Hendricks:

Right. Well, it'll be similar to what the American dream theology that you picked up on when you were a little girl.

Dr. Joy Dahl:

Yes.

Bill Hendricks:

Which from one point of view, it doesn't seem like there's anything wrong with that. Like what's wrong with wanting to get a good job and make a good income and provide for your family? What's wrong with that? But as in so many cases, asking the question, what's wrong with something doesn't get you to what's the right thing to do and what's right theologically.

Dr. Joy Dahl:

Right.

Bill Hendricks:

And so, yeah, they're going to learn a theology from someplace, but it may not accord with what God has shown us in his word.

Dr. Joy Dahl:

Yeah, and it's not going to bring that true purpose in life and that fulfillment and that hope of what happens after this? Is this all for naught? Kind of the Ecclesiastes, it's all just under the sun, under the wind.

Bill Hendricks:

Well, I want to make clear because you use the term, and I guess it's a technical term from the research, de-churched. This it means women who formerly went to church and they're no longer going to church. And I want to clarify for our listeners that may to some sound like, well, that's their problem. They were going to church, now they're not going to church. So they just walked away from the faith. And de-church does not mean that they've walked away from the faith. They have walked away from the church, they've not necessarily walked away from the faith.

Bill Hendricks:

And my own research on that goes all the way back into the '90s, Joy. I don't know if I told you, I wrote a book one time called Exit Interviews: Revealing Stories of Why People Are Leaving the Church. I was fascinated with a phenomenon that was taking place then and is taking place even more now with people who, for some reason, were no longer going to church and nobody had really studied that. And so I went out and interviewed quite a number of these so-called disillusioned Christians, and with the exception of one individual, none of them had walked away from the faith. None of them had turned their back on the gospel or on Jesus. They had simply gone through various kinds of experiences and come to certain conclusions that at least for a season, they were going to withdraw from being part of a church congregation.

Bill Hendricks:

But they were all still seeking for that connection of their life with God and particularly their day-to-day work and the living out of their lives. They were looking for a meaning, a purpose. And so de-church does not mean we have no interest in God.

Dr. Joy Dahl:

Yeah, it's very true. And I think that's why, again, it's important for us to be asking questions, coming alongside, creating safe spaces in the church, in other areas where we can really engage in the hard questions of God and faith to wrestle with our brothers and sisters in these areas and to let them know it's okay to have questions. None of us is ever going to arrive in our faith walk. It's a continual journey. But I think it is, this idea of workplace discipleship and just discipleship in general, it's really becoming whole life disciples, disciples of Christ in the whole of life.

Dr. Joy Dahl:

And for those of us who work, many of us are spending more hours at work than we are in any other realm of life. And so how can we walk the journey with others? How can we live out our faith, integrate our faith in our work, and really be a safe space to come alongside and walk the journey together with other people? Because as you said, they haven't necessarily turned from the faith, but if they're not in a faith community, it's hard to continue growing in our faith and being able to truly develop and continue in spiritual maturity without being in some type of community on that journey.

Bill Hendricks:

Yeah, I wanted to ask you about your model with Polished. I love… You've got these words, you want to help women explore faith together in authentic community. So those words together and community. Why is it so important that people and women in particular in the case of Polished do this in community with other people?

Dr. Joy Dahl:

Yeah, I think that authentic community is one thing that really sets us apart and that we want to be a place we're not trying to replace the church, we're trying to be really a bridge between the church and the workplace where women can come in, whether they have experience with the church previously or not, that we can come together and as we are growing in our workplace, development, leadership, we're also having the opportunity to talk about the hard questions of God and faith and we're doing it as we grow in sisterhood. And I think that it is really important. And again, a lot of the theology of work teaching I've done previously, it's not all for women. Where I am now, obviously Polished is focused specifically on women and that is near and dear to my faith walk just because of where I was at age 33, 34, leading up to meeting Jesus of just feeling like I know God, but there's still has to be more to this.

Dr. Joy Dahl:

And until I could really join community of women who knew Jesus and could not look down on me but really helped me to explore those faith questions, it was difficult for me to take that next step of really giving my life to Jesus and then navigating what that means now because your whole life doesn't change. A part of your spiritual life obviously changes. We're now walking in truth, we're walking with Jesus, but what does that mean for the rest of life and in our work and in our relationships? And so I think that having that safe space, particularly for women, knowing that you know what? We love our work, we love our careers, we love what we're doing whatever that might be, and that's good. It is the good work that God has created us to do. And so how do we embrace our sisters to walk that journey together as we grow in faith?

Bill Hendricks:

Well, and just to follow up on that, I'm sure that within Polished, you run into women who, frankly, don't love their work. They're there in the workforce by duress, if you will. They've got bills to pay and that's just a reality. They got to be in the workplace. But they may be in a job that doesn't fit them, they may be with a supervisor or in a company that's a very, very difficult place to work because it's toxic. So I assume that's also walking alongside women in their journey.

Dr. Joy Dahl:

Yeah, I think it's really important to find the right fit. And obviously your-

Bill Hendricks:

It's near and dear to my heart.

Dr. Joy Dahl:

Forte of giftedness. Yeah. So I think it goes back to theology again. Work was created before the Fall as good. Today work continues to be good and having the desire to use our gifting, our passions to be able to create and whatever our work looks like, engage in that is a good thing. But if we're not in the right type of work, it can be very challenging. And not all of us have the luxury in every season or maybe even any season of finding that perfect job. And so I think, again, that comes back to how do we work as unto the Lord? How do we honor him? How do we see, whether we are serving tables in a restaurant or we're cleaning houses or we're doing something else, how do we do it in honoring the Lord? And then if we can find work, whether it's paid or unpaid, where we can really use our giftings and our passions. And that is part of the journey of just understanding that work is cursed in the Fall, but work itself is not bad. The whole of creation is groaning.

Bill Hendricks:

Well, to be precise, I guess you'd say in Genesis 3, it's the creation that's cursed. It's the world. The context in which we live, it's a fallen condition, which means that work still has intrinsic value, but as the passage says, it's going to be toil. Like we'll do it, but it's going to be a whole lot harder than was intended.

Dr. Joy Dahl:

Yes, yes, exactly. Yes, it can be toilsome, it can be arduous, it can be draining, but it can also be fulfilling. And how do we enter into that with Jesus? How do we really look at work as worship and laying it before the Lord? And for some of us, that's what we need to do every day is really lay it on the altar, surrender and say, Lord, the results are up to you, but I'm showing up today.

Bill Hendricks:

So in the time that we have left, I just wanted to hear a little bit more about the actual Polished model. And I realize COVID has significantly affected it, but certainly prior to COVID, you mentioned several events that you would have. Tell us about those events and what would happen there at a Polished event.

Dr. Joy Dahl:

Yeah. So we have focused on gathering women in local chapters and community. Knowing that they're working women, most of our gatherings are lunchtime one hour. We respect people's time. We know that we have this one hour. We bring them in and we have women who are speaking who are living out their faith through their work, various industries, various topics. We have themes every month. And so we bring in women who are a little bit further along in the faith journey to talk about their experience in their work and in their walk. How the Lord has brought them to this place. And really, it becomes kind of a mentoring model. We're trying to raise up women to grow in leadership for their communities, for their workplaces, for their churches, and also helping to walk that journey together in faith and wrestling with questions and meeting one-on-one as we grow in that community.

Dr. Joy Dahl:

And so that has been a big part of our model to this point had been these monthly gatherings that we do in local chapters. We also have the BOLDLY conference, which is the first of its kind faith and work for women conference. And this is where again, we're looking to bring women together. This is a national platform, women all across the country and beyond coming together to look at how we're created boldly with purpose, that theology of work, how we're leading boldly with faith perspective, what it means to bring our faith perspective into the workplace, and then living boldly with passion, what it means and what it looks like. The how tos and the why's of how we live this out every single day, again, regardless of our context.

Bill Hendricks:

And where could someone find out more about the BOLDLY conference?

Dr. Joy Dahl:

That's on boldlyconference.com. You can find all the information. And it's, again, just a really exciting time I think of coming together as women to equip, encourage, and empower with the truths of the gospel, the truths of scripture, to go out as ambassadors of Christ into our everyday mission fields.

Bill Hendricks:

So boldlyconference.com.

Dr. Joy Dahl:

Yes.

Bill Hendricks:

And they can sign up there as well I take it.

Dr. Joy Dahl:

Yes.

Bill Hendricks:

That's fantastic. And that happens… You plan to have that annually?

Dr. Joy Dahl:

Yes. Yes, an annual event. And there's a free download there. We've done actually a study on Lydia from the book of Acts working boldly. You can find that at boldlyconference.com and it's on YouVersion as well.

Bill Hendricks:

Well, that's fantastic. Joy, I want to thank you for being with us on The Table Podcast today. Our time has flown by, but thank you so much for sort of highlighting this theology of work and particularly how you're taking that to particularly women in the workforce. And it's been a joy to have you here today, Joy.

Dr. Joy Dahl:

Thank you, Bill. I really appreciate it. Just so thankful for the opportunity to be able to share my passion for all of us as Christ followers in the workplace.

Bill Hendricks:

Thank you. And thank you for being with us here today on The Table Podcast. If you enjoy what you're hearing and gaining benefit from it, we really encourage you to become a subscriber on whatever podcasts you receive your podcasting from. And if you'd like to go deeper, I'm going to talk with Joy more on DTS Plus about this whole topic of theology of work. And so we invite you to subscribe to DTS Plus and join us there for a deeper cut on what we've talked about today. For The Table Podcast, I'm Bill Hendricks.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for listening to The Table Podcast. Dallas Theological Seminary, teach truth, love well.