The Table Podcast

Navigating Transgender Issues

In this episode Drs. Darrell Bock, Gary Barnes and Tim Yoder continue thier discussion on gender dysphoria, specifically focusing on how to understand and minister to people who are of mixed gender background.

Gender Dysphoria Series
  1. Understanding Gender Dysphoria
  2. Navigating Transgender Issues
Timecodes
00:15
Understanding gender dysphoria
01:30
Christian ethics and gender dysphoria
05:51
Relational interaction with individuals experiencing gender dysphoria
09:05
What is transgenderism?
15:40
What is gender dysphoria?
20:42
Theology and gender dysphoria
26:42
Three ways people view gender dysphoria
36:26
Tolerance and intolerance
42:49
Developing a Christian response to gender dysphoria
48:20
Four Steps in engaging a person experiencing gender dysphoria
Transcript
Darrell Bock
Welcome to The Table where we discuss issues of God and culture. I’m Darrell Bock, Executive Director for Cultural Engagement at the Hendricks Center at Dallas Theological Seminary.

And we are continuing our discussion on gender dysphoria, and understanding and ministering to people who are of mixed gender background; and my guests are Tim Yoder who is Associate Professor of Systematic Theology here at Dallas Seminary, and teaches our course on ethics, and Gary Barnes, who is Professor of Counseling here at Dallas Seminary, has his own family practice as well, and this is really part two.

The earlier portion, we examined kind of the perspective from someone who walks into a situation and meets someone who comes out of this background, and just how to minister to them.

Today, we’re gonna focus on the person, him or herself in terms of how – what they are going through, and how to understand the experience and the tensions of that experience.

And I wanna begin, Tim, with you, and that is to ask before we talk about a specific issue, it’s probably worth it to take a step back and frame, and ask, you know, what is it that’s asked of Christians in general as they’re interacting with people, particularly in a situation where the initial sense might be there’s something different going on here, this person’s coming from a very different place than I am.

Tim Yoder
Okay, well very good. I think the contribution of Christianity to ethics and to personal interaction as you talk about can really be summed up in a single word, and it’s love, and that might seem like a cliché or something that’s actually sort of simple but it’s really rather profound.

In ethics broadly most of the great ethicists focus on things like law or duty, or maybe virtue or pleasure in the case of utilitarians, and those all have their place and are interesting.

But one of the things that I’ve observed that’s interesting about the Christian perspective is that Christian ethics brings the idea of love into the picture.

Jesus tells us to love the Lord, our God, with all our heart, mind, soul and strength, and then to love our neighbors as ourselves, and it seems to me that those represent the two foundational commitments or principles of Christian ethics.

We have to love God. There is this human to God relationship that’s necessary. I think that’s – I think that refers to salvation, the gift that we receive through Jesus’ sacrifice, and then secondly, we need to love each other and love means more than just judging clearly or holding people to a standard, although I think that those things are – have their place but love involves mercy, love involves forgiveness, love involves sacrifice, and so that’s really in many ways our guiding principle.

The person of Jesus, one more point, the person of Jesus, he was a great ethicist and he laid out tremendous standards for ethical behavior, but he also interacted with people in a gracious and loving, and merciful way.

And when we look at Jesus we don’t see him as only someone who says do this and don’t do this but also someone who was gracious to sinners and showed love and mercy to individuals, and I think we have to find a way to mirror that.

Darrell Bock
Now two things leap to mind as I’m listening to you. The first is that usually ethics is about, if I can say it this way, ordering your life one way or another. That’s why there’s the movement to law and to those kinds of concerns.
Tim Yoder
Exactly.
Darrell Bock
But what I’m hearing you say is next to ordering and in fact a priority, even in relationship to ordering is the relational dimension of what Jesus calls us to do.
Tim Yoder
Yeah.
Darrell Bock
You know, what you’ve cited has been called the Great Commandment, and I like to say the Great Commandment is great because it’s great.

I mean it’s a priority and it really is a significant – it is the most significant orienter, because our relationships are important, and scripture, the fruit of the spirit is primarily relational. There are all these hints in scripture —

Tim Yoder
That’s right, that’s right.
Darrell Bock
— that how we interact with people is as important as how we see the world.
Tim Yoder
To bear one another’s burdens, to forgive, to forgive 70 times seven, to weep with those –
Gary Barnes
Which is a lot.
Darrell Bock
[Laughter.]
Tim Yoder
It is a lot.
Darrell Bock
Yeah.
Tim Yoder
By the way, these are the things that Nietzsche found so distasteful in Jesus’ message in the New Testament, and so he proposed this wild ethic of power.
Darrell Bock
Mmm-hmm.
Tim Yoder
The overcomer, the uber mensch that’s going to rule the world by power, because Nietzsche saw in these expressions of love and sacrifice, a weakness that he detested.
Darrell Bock
Okay, and so – and just for people who know Nietzsche is one of the examples of a completely different model of ethical approach to life.
Tim Yoder
That’s right, that’s right, and anti-Christian at his core.
Darrell Bock
Right, right.
Tim Yoder
19th Century.
Darrell Bock
So Gary, we’ve said in here many times that interacting relationally is really core, and one of the most basic things we can do. I think you talk about the relational lab. I’ll let you develop that a little bit.
Gary Barnes
Yeah, right, right.
Darrell Bock
What do you mean when you use that phrase?
Gary Barnes
You know, the relational lab is where we really get the truth. That’s where we get to really see how the tire is hitting the road, how it really works out.

So I have my theology but then I have my operational theology, and it’s my operational theology that’s gonna be in action, in a relational exchange.

Darrell Bock
And when we talk about this kind of intellectually we will talk – well now, we’re moving to application but the danger of thinking about it just kind of in that raw, abstract way is that we pull out the very relational elements, or we risk pulling out the relational elements that are really central to making the application.
Gary Barnes
Yeah, we’re not really working with the full package, when I’m only working with it theoretically or abstractly.
Darrell Bock
Mmm-hmm.
Gary Barnes
See, and in my relational lab is where I really get to see what is it that actually drives my responses.
Darrell Bock
Mmm-hmm.
Gary Barnes
So it becomes – my relational interactions becomes like a Rorschach ink blot, that kind of is a projective test that really shows me what’s really there. It’s my awareness opportunity, see.
Darrell Bock
Mmm-hmm.
Gary Barnes
I often say when I’m alone, I could be a spiritual legend in my own mind but in my marriage relational lab, that’s where the truth really shows itself.
Darrell Bock
[Laughter.] And your wife really knows.
Gary Barnes
Yeah, yeah.
Darrell Bock
Yeah.
Tim Yoder
Mmm-hmm.
Gary Barnes
We won’t go there.
Darrell Bock
Yeah.
Gary Barnes
That’s another day.
Darrell Bock
[Laughter.] That’s a whole ‘nother – exactly right, that’s all by itself, exactly. So I’m gonna – I struggled with the terminology at the beginning of this, and the reason is it’s because terminology does matter. So let’s talk a little bit about terms.

Transgenderism, gender dysphoria, and then whatever else should go in that slot.

Gary Barnes
Yeah.
Darrell Bock
What – why are the terms chosen? Why are those even important?
Gary Barnes
Terms are important because we attach meanings to terms.
Darrell Bock
Mmm-hmm.
Gary Barnes
And we can even have the same terms with different meanings being attached to them, and so we have to be very clear about our terms, and then even go a step beyond to see really what – where are the particular meanings that are being attached to it?
Darrell Bock
So there’s framing that takes place, not just in the term that I used but even how I see that term functioning.
Gary Barnes
Yes.
Tim Yoder
Mmm-hmm.
Gary Barnes
Yeah.
Darrell Bock
So let’s go through them one at a time, because I think this is actually an extremely important discussion, because all these terms are getting thrown around today, and people mean all kinds of things by them.

So let me start with probably the one that is most popularly used but may have issues, problematic issues tied to it, the term, transgenderism. What’s the issue there?

Gary Barnes
So transgender is actually your umbrella term. It’s the biggest, broadest term. It’s the one that kinda captures most of what people are gonna be talking about.
Darrell Bock
But that’s actually a big bucket, so there are lots of things that go in it.
Gary Barnes
It’s a very big bucket, yes, and so you could say that there’s many, many different ways of expressing gender identity, and what’s in inter-play here is the expression of gender which is actually a psychological, social and cultural aspect of being male or female.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
As we’re also considering the biological sex.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
And so it’s the interfacing of these.
Darrell Bock
So we’re dealing with multiple angles, simultaneously in some ways in terms of the – you know on the one hand, there’s the biology, if I can say it that way.
Gary Barnes
Right.
Darrell Bock
On the other hand, there’s the whole issue, orientation and practices which are of – I will say generally a little more fluid in terms of how they operate and how people view them.

So then when you talk about it being socially, a social element to them, some practices that are defined particularly as male or female are culturally defined as opposed to being essential to being male or female.

A simple example, we tend to equate nurturing with something that’s female as opposed to being male, but actually all people nurture in one way or another.

Gary Barnes
Yes, exactly.
Darrell Bock
So —
Gary Barnes
So I think the thing that could maybe be most helpful as a starting point for people is to say let’s talk about biological sex as not being equal to gender.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
And if we think about gender, let’s think about that as the psychological, social, and cultural experience of being male or female.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
So that might line up with biological sex.
Darrell Bock
Mmm-hmm.
Gary Barnes
Most of the time, it does, but that might not line up with biological sex.
Darrell Bock
And it’s when we get – I’ll say it this way, when we get significant misalignment that we’ve got issues that come up.
Gary Barnes
Yes, and the expression of where it’s not lining up is the bigger umbrella of transgender.
Darrell Bock
Okay, and so this is a terrible question: is it a good term, a bad term, or a term that we just need to understand?
Gary Barnes
Well it’s loaded with opportunities for confusion.
Darrell Bock
Okay [laughter.]
Gary Barnes
I’ll just say that.
Darrell Bock
Okay [laughter.] Sounds threatening. Okay, so and yet we – it is probably the most popular term in discussing this area.
Gary Barnes
Yes.
Darrell Bock
But the problem is is that it actually rather than being helpful can actually fog the discussion in one way or another. Is that the point?
Gary Barnes
Depending on the meanings people are attaching to all the terms.
Darrell Bock
Okay, all right.
Tim Yoder
I mean it sounds – I think it’s intended to be a relatively neutral descriptive term.
Gary Barnes
Yes.
Tim Yoder
But because it’s such a challenging and difficult issue, people hear it and interpret it, they have their – they bring their own connotations and ideas to it, and therefore it becomes loaded in the way you’re talking about it, and so maybe it’s not quite as descriptive as it could be, because people attach meaning.
Darrell Bock
Nor is it as neutral as it appears to be.
Tim Yoder
Exactly.
Gary Barnes
Exactly.
Darrell Bock
Yeah.
Gary Barnes
That’s the bigger problem, yeah.
Darrell Bock
Okay, so let me come back to another point that you are making, which is to distinguish between biological condition, I’m working to find words here that are neutral; biological condition in social practice, and that, because for some people, biology is everything, or the perception is that biology is everything. What makes that equation problematic?
Gary Barnes
Because there are exceptions.
Darrell Bock
Mmm-hmm.
Gary Barnes
There are anomalies.
Darrell Bock
Now do we have – I hate to get statistical here but it’s probably worth doing. Do we have any idea as to what kind of percentage we’re talking about in this kinda thing? Because I do think this helps people to think through this a little bit.
Gary Barnes
Yes, the prevalence rates; however, are wide-ranging.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
So we don’t have exact, because —
Darrell Bock
But there’s a rank.
Gary Barnes
— these are estimate rates, depending on different samples, and so some of the rates that we hear are based on people who are actually pursuing clinical services, who are experiencing gender dysphoria.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
So for males, that can range anywhere from one to 10,000, to one to 13,000.
Darrell Bock
Okay, so it’s less than one percent?
Gary Barnes
Oh, by a long shot.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
Yeah, yeah, by a long shot
Darrell Bock
But it’s there?
Gary Barnes
Definitely there, yeah.
Darrell Bock
Yeah, and so, and in some cases, now are we talking about – how can I say this? Are we talking about people’s whose biology is also, for lack of a better description, mixed or unclear, or chromosomal conditions that also are the single?
Gary Barnes
That’s another possibility.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
The term there that’s being used is intersex.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
Okay, so that’s where there are anomalies just within the biology itself.
Darrell Bock
Okay, so that – and frankly that’s important to note because that is an example of an exceptional situation —
Gary Barnes
It’s another exception.
Darrell Bock
— almost from the start.
Gary Barnes
Yeah.
Darrell Bock
Okay, so we didn’t define one other term that we do need to talk about, so let me go back and collect that before we press on with numbers, et cetera, and that is gender dysphoria. What do we mean when we use that term in that?
Gary Barnes
Okay, so if you take the biological sex and then you take the psychological, emotional, social experience of gender, and those are not congruent with one another.
Darrell Bock
Mmm-hmm.
Gary Barnes
The experience of that incongruence would be described as gender dysphoria.
Darrell Bock
Okay. Now the next question that naturally follows I think here is, is that when we were talking about numbers, were we talking about the number who qualify, or who are discussed or are viewed as gender dysphoric, I guess is the phrase?
Gary Barnes
Yeah, that’s what I was saying.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
These were the adult males who were actually seeking service a result of their experience of gender dysphoria.
Darrell Bock
Okay, now is the number different for females? Because you mentioned male.
Gary Barnes
Yes, yes. So females numbers that we have are one to 20,000, to up to 34,000.
Darrell Bock
So it’s less common actually —
Gary Barnes
Less common for the females.
Darrell Bock
— female than for males.
Gary Barnes
Mmm-hmm.
Darrell Bock
Okay. Now all this is important, obviously because what it means is that there are people for whom – and we talked about this last time when we talked about we live in a fallen world, and sometimes things aren’t as neat and clean as one might think.

So what these numbers indicate is I guess the – is this the big box, if I can say it that way, in that one of the questions that I think is emerging as we talk more about these kinds of situations is that people are pulled into these conversations who may not have, for example, the biological ambiguities that would be a clear evidence of a mix, and so how does that fit into this equation, that reality?

Gary Barnes
So you’re saying – are you asking are there subgroups, like there’s an incongruence with biology.
Darrell Bock
Right.
Gary Barnes
And then there’s another subgroup where there’s an incongruence between biology and the psychological, social, and cultural?
Darrell Bock
And the fact that we’re talking more about this, that’s yes, but let me fill it out. The fact that we’re talking more about this is that it brings more people into the mix of thinking about am I in this category or not? They wrestle with where they fit in the spectrum of things.
Gary Barnes
Yes, so the other thing that’s very important is not only the prevalence rates, because those are based on adults, those numbers were based on adult male and females seeking clinical services for their gender.
Darrell Bock
So they’re recognizing something and seeking out the need.
Gary Barnes
Yes, yes.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
See, so there’s another whole group and we don’t know what the number is.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
People who are experiencing a dysphoric experience, an incongruence that have not sought services.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
So we don’t know what those are.
Darrell Bock
And they’re – they may be sorting it out either very privately or seeking help from someone who they might know but may not be professionally equipped to do it.
Gary Barnes
Exactly, so how do you know what those numbers are?
Darrell Bock
Exactly. All right, so —
Gary Barnes
And there’s another complicating factor too.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
And that – this is what we would refer to as persistence rates.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
So in other words, if you look in childhood, in adolescence, the numbers are gonna be much higher.
Darrell Bock
Mmm-hmm.
Gary Barnes
Because the persistent rates are very low into adulthood.
Darrell Bock
Interesting, and that has to do with just the whole – if I can say it this way, a teenage experience of just determining your own identity and where you fit in the world, and all that kind of stuff?
Gary Barnes
Yes.
Darrell Bock
Is that which generation?
Gary Barnes
It’s a process over a long journey.
Darrell Bock
Okay, okay. So —
Gary Barnes
And so because you experience early gender dysphoria does not mean that you know what you’re gonna be experiencing in adulthood.
Darrell Bock
Okay, fair enough. Now there is a reason why we – why I’ve brought together someone who teaches in theology and someone who teaches in counseling into this conversation, because I do think that sometimes we think these two things kind of run into each other to a certain degree.
Tim Yoder
Mmm-hmm.
Gary Barnes
Mmm-hmm.
Darrell Bock
You know, that the theologian is operating from one angle and is looking at this in on particular way, and the counselor is looking at it from another kind of way, and so they’re kind of in conflict with one another, but part of why we have done this the way we have is to show, no, there’s potential for real congruence here, and how we think about this and interact with it; that there is a theological ground and rationale for thinking about this alongside the practical and relational considerations that are in this. So I turn to my theologian here and ask him [laughter] —
Tim Yoder
Yes.
Darrell Bock
— the question, tell me what you think you’ve just heard [laughter.]
Gary Barnes
[Laughter.]
Tim Yoder
Well, what we’ve heard is the effects of sin, and how it affects our human nature.
Darrell Bock
And that affects all of us.
Tim Yoder
Exactly, exactly.
Darrell Bock
Just in different ways and in different places.
Tim Yoder
Because of the presence of sin, because our natures are fallen, because total depravity is true, therefore, it’s going to show up in our world. We live in a fallen world.

The world itself and how we feel about it, and so we’re going to experience these anatomical incongruencies, the intersex condition. That’s a part of the fall.

Darrell Bock
We’re gonna experience differences, incongruencies in how we think, this dysphoria that’s part of our thoughts, our feelings, how we understand that we’re gonna go through phases and periods in which we’re going to struggle with temptations.

We’re going to have trials that are present to us and that’s part of what it means to live in a fallen world, and so part of our theology has to be that we have to be ready and expect those sorts of things.

It’s you know, there are no perfect people. There’s – we are save Jesus and we are – so we’re gonna expect these sorts of things, and we have to be prepared to deal with them.

Darrell Bock
Okay.
Tim Yoder
Yeah.
Darrell Bock
So – sounds rather challenging.
Tim Yoder
Well, it is.
Darrell Bock
And so let’s think about – so we’ve got this group. It’s not a large group but it’s a real group.
Gary Barnes
Hmm.
Darrell Bock
Very real.
Gary Barnes
Yeah, very real.
Darrell Bock
So let’s talk about —
Gary Barnes
Not so large as the media might lead us to believe it is, but nevertheless, very real.
Darrell Bock
Okay, and of course now let’s deal with the way in which society in general can contribute to the disconnect, if I can say it that way.
Gary Barnes
Yes.
Darrell Bock
Let’s go there.
Tim Yoder
Mmm-hmm.
Gary Barnes
So what I’d like to go back to, what you were saying earlier Darrell, about bringing a theologian and a psychologist together at the table, and the reason that I’m so excited about us being able to do that is because of the unity of truth concept.
Darrell Bock
Right.
Gary Barnes
All truth is God’s truth.
Darrell Bock
Right.
Tim Yoder
Exactly.
Gary Barnes
Now that being said, I really want to agree with Tim that we are living in a broken, fallen world, as broken people, and so there’s good theologians, and bad theologians, and good counselors, and bad counselors.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
And good men and good women
Darrell Bock
Right.
Gary Barnes
And bad men and bad women, but there’s really good and bad in all of us.
Darrell Bock
Right.
Tim Yoder
That’s right.
Gary Barnes
There’s not like those are the good guys and these are the bad guys.
Darrell Bock
And we need to also be careful that we don’t – I can say it this way, declassify sin in such a way that there are these sins over here that are really a problem, and these other sins over here that we don’t wanna think very much about.
Gary Barnes
Right, right, right, right, but when it comes down to when we’re talking about the topic of the day, what we don’t wanna jump to the conclusion of is that every problem is a result of a personal sin choice.
Darrell Bock
Right.
Tim Yoder
Right.
Darrell Bock
Right.,
Tim Yoder
Exactly.
Gary Barnes
Just like if I have a heart arrhythmia, that’s a problem.
Darrell Bock
Right.
Gary Barnes
But that’s not necessarily a result of a personal sin choice.
Darrell Bock
You didn’t choose to have arrhythmia.
Gary Barnes
In my particular case —
Darrell Bock
[Laughter.]
Gary Barnes
— I would say no.
Darrell Bock
Yeah.
Gary Barnes
I mean I wouldn’t say there’s somebody who couldn’t figure out a way to choose that —
Darrell Bock
Right.
Gary Barnes
— by their lifestyle.
Darrell Bock
Right, right.
Gary Barnes
But what we’re wanting to say is you don’t wanna make the conclusion in every case that this is about a personal sin choice.
Tim Yoder
Right, right.
Darrell Bock
So and part of the reason for being sensitive about that is because, and we alluded to this, but I don’t think we’ve brought it out explicitly.

And that is one of the things that we’re after in actually talking about this in this way is before you can engage well, and even make an assessment about how you’re interacting with people, you’ve gotta kind of understand exactly what it is that you are dealing with and the way – and this brings us back to the societal question.

The way in which society tends to handle this area doesn’t always necessarily lead to understanding about what is actually going on, particularly for the person who is – finds themselves in this condition.

Gary Barnes
And I would say not only is that true but also, an overall average, organized church response can also be misguided and misdirected.
Darrell Bock
Maybe because the way in which the society at large sees things, or even the way some people talk about this theologically may not actually line up with everything that we know, both on the theological and on the counseling side.
Gary Barnes
Right, just because we have a conflict of truth claims doesn’t mean the theological truth claim always wins, automatically.
Darrell Bock
Right, right, and in fact, oftentimes you have to work towards the theological truth claim, as opposed to simply assuming ideally, it’s just gonna drop into place.
Gary Barnes
Right.
Darrell Bock
Okay, so let’s go there. This is the – I feel like I’m in a dentist’s chair [laughter.]

You know, we’re slowly working our way in the root canal, but anyway, but it’s actually pretty important to go through this a step at a time, and to think through it almost a level at a time.

You say that there are lenses, through which we should look at this —

Gary Barnes
Yes.
Darrell Bock
— and that they help us to get oriented. Let’s talk a little bit about what those are.
Gary Barnes
Yes, again, Mark Yarhouse is I think one of our leading contributors to help our understanding with gender identity, as well as sexual identity.
Darrell Bock
And he’s written a book on gender dysphoria.
Gary Barnes
Yes. He’s written many books.
Darrell Bock
Yeah.
Gary Barnes
If you’re just gonna read one book on this topic, that would be the first I’d recommend, that you’d go to.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
In that particular book, he does identify the three lenses that – we don’t like tend to look through all three lenses. We tend to be one- lens people.
Darrell Bock
Oriented.
Gary Barnes
Yes.
Darrell Bock
Yeah, right.
Gary Barnes
And so the first lens that he identifies is the more traditional church lens and that was – could be referred to as the integrity lens.
Darrell Bock
Mmm-hmm.
Gary Barnes
And so the very importance of that from a theological perspective, and we can have more conversation about this is it’s really identifying the theological significance of the binary model of male and female.
Darrell Bock
Okay, so and by the binary male and female, that lens often is almost exclusively seen that biology matches gender. Is that part of what comes with that?
Gary Barnes
Yes, that there is such a thing as maleness, where everything’s congruent.
Darrell Bock
Mmm-hmm.
Gary Barnes
And there is such a thing as femaleness where everything’s congruent, and that’s very important, especially as you consider being created in the image of God as male, and as female.
Tim Yoder
Mmm-hmm.
Darrell Bock
And I take it that the tension in that is that really, rather than thinking about two clean boxes, if I can – I’m trying to use visual imagery.

What we really are dealing with is a kind of a spectrum of things, and once you put the social, cultural things as a layer on top of whatever the raw biology is, you’ve actually – you actually don’t have two boxes anymore?

Gary Barnes
Well, you can hold onto the two-box view.
Tim Yoder
Well, that’s what the integrity model is, right?
Gary Barnes
Yes, yes, that’s right.
Tim Yoder
We’ve holding onto the two-boxes as much as we can.
Gary Barnes
That’s right.
Darrell Bock
But I’m trying to actually push on it a little bit.
Gary Barnes
But you’re gonna run into some problems.
Tim Yoder
I think that’s right.
Darrell Bock
And so when you get this – the point is when you get to the point of incongruence, even at the level of biology, all of the sudden, your boxes don’t fit.
Gary Barnes
You’ve got a problem.
Tim Yoder
Exactly.
Darrell Bock
Yeah.
Tim Yoder
Mmm-hmm.
Darrell Bock
So what you’re suggesting is that – and I think the backdrop to this, given the numbers that we have is that to a degree, the two boxes in most cases work.
Gary Barnes
Yes.
Tim Yoder
Sure.
Darrell Bock
But in a few, but therefore significant cases, it doesn’t.
Gary Barnes
And then what do you do with that?
Darrell Bock
And then what do you do with that?
Gary Barnes
Right.
Darrell Bock
That’s where we are.
Gary Barnes
Yeah.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
Yeah.
Darrell Bock
So that’s the integrity lens.
Gary Barnes
Yeah.
Darrell Bock
Okay, and I can count. So we’ve got two left.
Gary Barnes
Okay.
Darrell Bock
[Laughter.]
Gary Barnes
So if you go to the response to the integrity lens, as people are dealing with real people that aren’t in the two-box experience, they’re saying no, it’s really not a two-box model at all.
Darrell Bock
Mmm-hmm.
Gary Barnes
It’s really a diversity model, and so there’s a full continuum, and anything from one to the other, and everything in the middle is all to be celebrated.
Tim Yoder
Yeah, yeah.
Darrell Bock
Okay, so this is the opposite of the integrity lens?
Gary Barnes
This is going to the other —
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
Yes.
Darrell Bock
All right, okay.
Tim Yoder
Mmm-hmm.
Gary Barnes
And so as you could have people in the diversity model that would have a theological model that they’re working from, and then you also have people in the diversity model that would not be working at all from a theological model.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
Okay, but the thing they would share in common is that these are all valid differences, and they’re all to be celebrated equally.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Tim Yoder
And the more radical of those in that model want to deconstruct the whole notion of gender altogether and say you know, maybe there should be a third.
Darrell Bock
Or no boxes at all.
Tim Yoder
Or fluidity —
Darrell Bock
Yeah.
Tim Yoder
Right, and yes, exactly.
Gary Barnes
Yeah.
Tim Yoder
Not everybody is that – will go that far and be that radical but that’s certainly a part of the diversity model.
Gary Barnes
Yes.
Darrell Bock
And again, what we’re dealing with here, and I think this is important is that we’ve got layers going on in these discussions, almost every level that we’re talking about it.
Gary Barnes
Yes.
Darrell Bock
And the tendency to generalize, which often happens in these conversations inevitably washes out some of these differences, which actually are important pieces of the conversation.
Gary Barnes
Yeah.
Tim Yoder
Yes.
Darrell Bock
Regardless of what you think of them, they’re there, and have to be dealt with.
Gary Barnes
That’s right.
Darrell Bock
And so in that sense, it’s important. Okay, so that’s the diversity model.
Gary Barnes
Yeah.
Darrell Bock
So we’ve got – so I’ve got the two-box group over here —
Gary Barnes
Yeah.
Darrell Bock
— and the diversity —
Gary Barnes
Category.
Darrell Bock
— anything’s over – group over here. Okay, so that’s two. That leaves one.
Gary Barnes
So that leaves us the third lens.
Darrell Bock
That’s right.
Gary Barnes
And so this is the lens that I prefer to use the label of anomaly, the anomaly lens.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
And so what the anomaly position does is it holds true to the binary understanding of the sacredness, theologically speaking, significance of male and female as image bearers of God.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
And so at the same time, though, it’s saying because we do now have a broken, fallen world where the whole world groans under sin, there are things that are outside of the design.

There’s things that don’t match up. There’s inconsistencies. There’s incongruencies.

Darrell Bock
Mmm-hmm.
Gary Barnes
And that happens in all kinds of different areas —
Darrell Bock
Right.
Gary Barnes
— and it also happens in the area of maleness and femaleness.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
And it happens within the biology itself. There’s incongruences. It also happens in the biological sex, and the gender dysphoria.
Tim Yoder
Mmm-hmm.
Gary Barnes
So that’s all a part of the real experience, this side of Genesis 3.
Darrell Bock
Okay, so boiling that all down, it’s taken us about a half an hour to get here —
Gary Barnes
Yeah.
Darrell Bock
— but we’re plowing through. What this means is that there are – there is a percentage of a population that I meet that are the anomaly, for lack of a better description.

And they require – I’m gonna say a certain kind of sensitive care that generally most of us aren’t equipped to – in one sense aren’t equipped to give because we just it’s – the whole thing about it is awkward and kind of off-kilter.

Gary Barnes
Yes.
Darrell Bock
So —
Gary Barnes
What tends to happen on auto pilot if – and I’ve been involved with this for quite some time now, and so I’ve seen patterns.
Darrell Bock
Yeah, okay.
Gary Barnes
Okay, if you look at people that are rigidly holding to the integrity model, and there’s good motivations for that.
Darrell Bock
Right.
Gary Barnes
You don’t wanna —
Darrell Bock
Right.
Gary Barnes
— quickly, easily compromise a sacred theological significance.
Darrell Bock
And the model is appropriate in almost – in a significant number of cases.
Gary Barnes
It fits most cases.
Darrell Bock
That’s right.
Gary Barnes
Okay.
Tim Yoder
Yes.
Darrell Bock
Yeah.
Gary Barnes
So there’s good motivation about let’s not compromise something that’s so important —
Darrell Bock
Right.
Gary Barnes
— but at the same time, out of this good motivation, you can actually have a negative impact.
Darrell Bock
Okay, and let me frame this. You’ve framed it one way. Let me frame it another way. I actually think that part of what’s going on in the hard defense of the integrity model is they are reacting in part, not to the person who may be in front of them, but to the alternative diversity model which they absolutely reject.
Gary Barnes
And that’s – the person, the real life person is caught in the crosshairs of that.
Darrell Bock
Exactly right.
Tim Yoder
Mmm-hmm.
Darrell Bock
Exactly right, that’s my point. So which means that if I can say it this way, the ideological, theological social debate is one dimension of this question but the person who’s caught in that turmoil, okay.
Tim Yoder
Yes.
Tim Yoder
Is another – is another area and it’s relationally demanding to balance what you’re doing over here —
Gary Barnes
Yes.
Tim Yoder
— in the public square with how you’re interacting with a person who’s caught in this situation.
Gary Barnes
Exactly, and so what you end up with, if you look at emerging patterns, those who are holding strongly, even I would say rigidly to the integrity model have an interactional response to the person as being intolerant, and they would move against the person, or move away from the person.
Tim Yoder
Mmm-hmm.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
Not towards —
Darrell Bock
Towards the person.
Gary Barnes
— the person.
Darrell Bock
Right, okay. So let’s talk about that a little bit, because we do wanna – I do wanna spend some time focusing on the person who’s caught in this situation.
Gary Barnes
Yeah.
Tim Yoder
Yeah.
Darrell Bock
One, what they’re going through; and then, two, although this loops back a little bit to what we discussed the last time. What is the best way to interact with a person who’s caught in this situation?
Gary Barnes
Okay, can I say what the alternative is that’s not best?
Darrell Bock
Yeah, absolutely.
Gary Barnes
Okay.
Darrell Bock
Absolutely, let’s talk here.
Gary Barnes
So we – many of us, especially our younger generations now look at this intolerance as totally unacceptable, and are actually driven away from that, and their solution to that is tolerance.
Tim Yoder
Mmm-hmm.
Darrell Bock
Which actually drops them almost unconsciously into the diversity model, as a result.
Gary Barnes
Exactly, that’s where you end up camping.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
When you —
Darrell Bock
When you make this move?
Gary Barnes
It’s like I don’t want that and so the answer has gotta be this. It’s a two-model choice.
Darrell Bock
Right, right, right, when there’s a third option. Okay, so we don’t – so it isn’t just a matter – and some of what I see, I’m gonna describe it and it may not be the best description, is almost it’s a reaction to the intolerance but it’s also – I’m gonna say apathy may not be the right word, but it’s almost a withdrawal.

In other words, it’s a sense of I don’t wanna fight, I don’t think anyone should be fighting over this and so there’s just — there’s this pushback of saying I’m not – I don’t wanna engage this, which actually is exactly what it portrays itself to be.

It’s a form of disengagement that actually in the end doesn’t help you very much, because you don’t make the effort to understand, or to move into the space, or to get some sense of what’s actually going on and what might – what might be most helpful.

Gary Barnes
I think what it does appear to many is it’s a quick, easy solution.
Darrell Bock
Yes.
Gary Barnes
But they’re not really dealing with everything that they need to deal with in that quick and easy solution.
Tim Yoder
Yeah.
Darrell Bock
Yeah, and that’s why I’m characterizing it as a kind of apathy because it’s a hesitation to risk stepping into understanding and working on, and working through what it may actually take to actually be helpful in this situation.
Gary Barnes
Right.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Tim Yoder
There’s an interesting thing I can say about tolerance, intolerance. So intolerance of course leads to hatred and judgment, and sometimes, in some cases, retribution, you know, the persecution; but tolerance is the idea that we should just allow people to be whatever they are, to celebrate all the differences.

Tolerance is actually always an incomplete perspective, because we never really can reach the place where we completely tolerate everything. There’s always got to be limits to tolerance.

We never – we really, when you think about it, there are things that we will never tolerate. We shouldn’t, right, torturing babies, right.

Darrell Bock
Right.
Tim Yoder
Or you know – or genocide or child abuse, or serial rape or other – we could make a long – a list of really horrific things that should never be tolerated.

So if we’re gonna say that tolerance is our framework, we have to recognize that tolerance is always limited, and therefore, it’s not really in a sense strong enough to hold how we should really think about the world. That’s why we go to back to the idea of —

Gary Barnes
It’s not a complete, working model.
Tim Yoder
Exactly.
Gary Barnes
Yeah.
Tim Yoder
That’s why something like love, and mercy and forgiveness is a much – it’s a strong, it’s a thicker idea that we can build a perspective around, a relational perspective.
Darrell Bock
And the love doesn’t float out there, kind of contextualist.
Tim Yoder
No, exactly.
Darrell Bock
Because with that, behind it, there is an order – and at least thinking about this Christianally, there is an order in a – and there is a design that generally does work, to which you’re moving towards.

One of the things tolerance does is it’s such a laissez-faire attitude towards life that it allows the brokenness to continue as brokenness without being examined.

Gary Barnes
Right.
Tim Yoder
Yes.
Darrell Bock
And that’s a problem, as well.
Tim Yoder
Yes, yes.
Darrell Bock
Okay, so we said what you shouldn’t do. So what —
Gary Barnes
So I just wanna stick on the problems with the tolerance model for a little bit longer here.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
So if you really think through the model, as Tim was helping us do right there, it’s not only an incomplete working model, it’s an inconsistent model.
Darrell Bock
Mmm-hmm.
Gary Barnes
See, because really tolerance is a sneaky intolerant position.
Darrell Bock
Right, right.
Gary Barnes
And so the tolerance says there’s no room for truth, no absolute truth.
Darrell Bock
Right.
Gary Barnes
But then that becomes their absolute truth.
Darrell Bock
Right.
Tim Yoder
Exactly, exactly.
Gary Barnes
See, and so it’s an inconsistent model.
Tim Yoder
Right, so the only thing it can’t tolerate are those that hold to the standards, which is – which could look like a kind of intolerance.
Darrell Bock
Right.
Tim Yoder
And so you’re right, so they – it’s another reason why it’s incomplete. It’s inconsistent.
Darrell Bock
I like that.
Gary Barnes
And so in the three-lens model, the reason that the diversity model is also not working is because it doesn’t allow for the significant theological truth of male and female.
Tim Yoder
That’s right.
Darrell Bock
And it doesn’t recognize how anomaly is something that just – it is not just some – I mean it’s there but it needs to be worked through, as opposed to simply recognized.
Tim Yoder
Yeah, it’s a wrong solution to the exceptions.
Darrell Bock
Right, yeah. So – and actually, we see this because we see in certain conversations that come into this area, and this is another point about inconsistency.

Well, you know, we ought to celebrate the whole variety of what’s there, but if you step in, in the midst of that variety and say well, I’m not sure; there’s something we ought to think about here, all of the sudden, you’re shoved off to the side and marginalized.

Gary Barnes
Yeah, so it’s no longer tolerated.
Darrell Bock
Yeah.
Gary Barnes
That’s excluded.
Darrell Bock
Exactly right, so that’s inconsistency.
Gary Barnes
Mmm-hmm.
Darrell Bock
Okay, so finally —
Gary Barnes
Yeah.
Darrell Bock
[Laughter.] We get to the person themselves and one – what are they – what are they going through? Because they experience all this turmoil.
Gary Barnes
Yes.
Darrell Bock
Not only internally —
Gary Barnes
Right.,
Darrell Bock
— but they also experience the turmoil that’s going on around them about who they are.
Gary Barnes
Exactly, exactly.
Darrell Bock
Which has got to be tremendously challenging to go through.
Gary Barnes
It’s real. It’s very real, and it’s not adequately gonna be addressed with either the integrity model or the diversity model.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
See.
Darrell Bock
And so – and so walking into the anomaly space, what do you recommend then?
Gary Barnes
So what the anomaly lens allows us to do is to be Gospel people.
Darrell Bock
Mmm-hmm.
Gary Barnes
So we can hold firmly to theological truths, but also understand that there are exceptions in a broken, fallen world, and because of being Gospel people, we are changed by Christ who is full of grace and truth, which compels us to respond out of grace and truth, not one without the other.
Darrell Bock
Mmm-hmm.
Gary Barnes
Which frees us up to move towards someone who’s different, who doesn’t fit the model, who doesn’t support the integrity model.
Darrell Bock
Mmm-hmm.
Gary Barnes
Who is in deep pain, and hurt, and struggle. We can move towards that, see. This is — the motivating factor here is the compelling love of Christ that enables us and empowers us to be able to do that.
Darrell Bock
And so I take it that part of what that involves is actually making the effort to move towards someone and get to know and understand their struggle, how they’re seeing the world, the things that they are up against, that kind of thing and then begin to ask the questions, what does – what does loving someone in this situation mean, as you work through that?

And so there aren’t gonna be always, for lack of a better description, cookie cutter answer to how they’re gonna be dealt with.

Tim Yoder
Yeah.
Gary Barnes
Yes, very much so.
Tim Yoder
I think there’s a theological distinction that really helps, a theological and ethical distinction that helps us here, and that is that between a test or a trial and an actual sinful activity.

I mean this comes out of the book of Job and really throughout the scriptures but certain – just because we live in a fallen world, right, we find ourselves in situations which are a trial, like Job’s, right.

Darrell Bock
Mmm-hmm.
Tim Yoder
The things that happened to Job were not because of his own sin. In fact, the first couple of chapters of Job go out of the way to talk about how righteous a man he was. I think it mentions it three or four times in chapters one and two.

Those things were not because he sinned, but they were a trial that he – and then how would he respond in that trial, and I think that’s what we’re seeing here.

When people have gender dysphoria, that itself is not a sinful choice on their part. It’s a trial that they undergo. Now how are they going to deal with that?

There are sinful choices they could make because they’re in that trial, and there are righteous choices they could make when they’re in the trial, but the situation itself is a part of our fallen world but it’s not a sin choice, itself.

And we see that all, in all kinds of situations when we suffer physical disabilities, you know, blindness or deafness, or a handicap. How are we gonna act because of that? I mean we can become bitter and get drunk and lash out.

Those would be sinful responses, or we can bear up under it and develop maturity and character, and that would be a more appropriate response; and so the condition itself is a trial. How we respond to it is really how we should be evaluated from an ethical perspective.

Darrell Bock
Now we’re almost running out of time, so I almost hate to bring up this question but I think we’ve gotta pursue it, and that is one of the things that I think is happening as a part of this conversation is you have people who – and I’m gonna make a distinction here and we can play with whether the distinction’s valid or not.

People who are legitimately in the anomaly category, and then there are people who are drawn to the anomaly, if I can make that distinction.

Gary Barnes
Yeah, yeah.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
Yeah.
Tim Yoder
Mmm-hmm.
Darrell Bock
They’re not there but they’re drawn towards it, which means that even this conversation has layers attached to it.
Gary Barnes
It does.
Darrell Bock
And so – and let’s – and we haven’t even talked about the whole teenage level of this which is sometimes what you have is a person caught in trying to figure out where they are.
Gary Barnes
Exactly.
Darrell Bock
And they may be in one category or they may be in the other, and that actually makes all the difference in the world, doesn’t it?
Gary Barnes
Yeah, it’s a big process.
Darrell Bock
[Laughter.] So —
Gary Barnes
Yeah [laughter.]
Darrell Bock
Like I said, it’s a terrible question to ask towards the end. We’re probably gonna go over a little bit but let’s pursue that a little bit.
Gary Barnes
Okay.
Darrell Bock
So you’ve got – so I’ve got a teenager who walks into the room and says or announces, or intimates how – whatever level of disclosure we’re gonna talk about, that this may be where they are.
Gary Barnes
This is —
Darrell Bock
What do you do?
Gary Barnes
This is happening day after day with parents and youth pastors, and so they’re finding themselves saying what do I do?
Darrell Bock
Exactly.
Gary Barnes
Yeah.
Darrell Bock
So –?
Gary Barnes
Okay.
Darrell Bock
[Laughter.]
Gary Barnes
So we mentioned in our first session kind of a four-point thing of you can release your rigid hold onto the integrity model, and still hold to the sacredness of male and femaleness.
Darrell Bock
Mmm-hmm.
Gary Barnes
Okay, so you don’t have to feel like you’re compromising those theological important truths by making room for exception. So that’s a really important first step, right there.
Darrell Bock
Yeah.
Gary Barnes
To just free yourself up.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
Okay.
Darrell Bock
So the assumption – so and what I think the application of that is, and I’m gonna try and translate this a little bit, is that we may have people who are genuinely in the anomaly.

We may have people who may not be genuinely in the anomaly, but you don’t help yourself by denying the anomaly at the start.

Gary Barnes
Exactly.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
So if you’re holding rigidly to the integrity model, what you’re gonna do is everything is gonna be invested in preventing anybody from leaving the integrity model.
Darrell Bock
Right.
Gary Barnes
So you’re gonna force people into you’ve got to be this, or you’ve got to be that.
Darrell Bock
Mmm-hmm.
Gary Barnes
See, and that’s only gonna make everything worse.
Darrell Bock
Particularly for the person who’s legitimately in —
Gary Barnes
For both [laughter.]
Darrell Bock
The – yeah, well it puts pressure on both of them.
Tim Yoder
Yes.
Darrell Bock
But the pressure might be particularly intense for the person who’s really there.
Gary Barnes
You’re not gonna get your best outcome with a control strategy.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
And that’s what this is gonna lead to.
Darrell Bock
Okay, so – okay. So I’m confronted with this and I’m so and – and so the first thing I do is I recognize, all right, there’s the possibility there might – this might be the anomaly.
Gary Barnes
This might be —
Darrell Bock
The anomaly.
Gary Barnes
Yes, exactly.
Darrell Bock
That’s step one.
Gary Barnes
One possibility, okay.
Darrell Bock
Okay, so where do you go from there?
Gary Barnes
So you don’t panic with that.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
Okay. I don’t panic because, number one, I’m not having to compromise unimportant theological truths for myself, and I’m also not panicking because there’s no way of knowing where this is gonna go.
Darrell Bock
Right.
Gary Barnes
Okay, but the other reason I don’t panic, and the other reason that I do my next three points is that point number two was these are our people, not those people.
Darrell Bock
Right.
Gary Barnes
Okay, and point number three is I’m gonna journey with.
Darrell Bock
Mmm-hmm.
Gary Barnes
We’re in the journey. We don’t even know how the journey’s gonna end up in terms of maleness, femaleness, but what we do know is regardless of anything, we can make the focus about journeying in our identity in Christ.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
Okay, and then the fourth point is I’m in that same journey too. So you’re gonna help me in my journey, in my identity with Christ because I got something new. I gotta figure out how all this works. So all of this is really important, and so we’re not gonna panic.

We’re not going to hold rigidly to this but what we’re gonna do is be in process with one another in this.

Darrell Bock
Okay, let me try and go one step further. We’re just gonna keep going, because we need to play this out. There — bad, because I’m gonna generalize. There – so you might in the midst of the journey discover there really is an anomaly.
Gary Barnes
Right.
Darrell Bock
This is an anomalous situation.
Gary Barnes
Right, right.
Darrell Bock
That’s gonna create one set of responses.
Gary Barnes
Right, right.
Darrell Bock
In the midst of the journey, you might actually determine that no, there’s not really an anomaly. There’s just been some, for lack of a better description, confusion in terms of what’s going on. That’s gonna produce another set of responses. Walk me down those two roads.
Gary Barnes
Okay. So what you – you don’t wanna do the rigid integrity model.
Darrell Bock
Right.
Gary Barnes
But the answer to that is not the diversity model.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
And so what treatments tend to flow from the diversity model is the minute a child or an adolescent is showing signs of being the exception, you make the conclusion —
Darrell Bock
They are the exception.
Gary Barnes
— that your destination is determined.
Darrell Bock
Right, right.
Tim Yoder
Yes.
Gary Barnes
And therefore, we need to facilitate, not prevent, and so what we’re gonna do is help in your social transitions, and so we’re gonna actually – we’re gonna do things like promote the cross-dressing.
Darrell Bock
Mmm-hmm.
Gary Barnes
We’re gonna promote the taking on of the different gender from your biology.
Darrell Bock
Mmm-hmm.
Gary Barnes
We’re gonna give you, when you move towards adolescence, what we’re gonna do is we’re gonna introduce hormones to delay puberty, so that you can continue to grow to the point of making this a decision yourself, or we’re just gonna let you go ahead into your adolescence and puberty, and then we’re gonna introduce hormones that help you become the gender you feel you need to be.
Darrell Bock
Okay.
Gary Barnes
And then we can even move to surgical change.
Darrell Bock
Right.
Gary Barnes
To facilitate that process.
Darrell Bock
And just to add another layer, what’s happening legally in some states is that some of this is actually being mandated as to how it’s being handled, which is a whole ‘nother layer.
Gary Barnes
So, see that’s all based on because you’re experiencing this now, your outcome is determined and we need to facilitate.
Darrell Bock
Right, okay, and you’re saying that’s not the place to go?
Gary Barnes
So the anomaly position —
Darrell Bock
Yeah, right.
Gary Barnes
— would be one of not prevention and not one of facilitation, but one of caution.
Darrell Bock
Mmm-hmm.
Gary Barnes
And so this is a – what Mark Yarhouse calls a watchful, waiting approach.
Darrell Bock
Mmm-hmm.
Gary Barnes
And so this is about being with, in the journey, you’re not jumping to conclusions. You might make some adjustments, okay. So you’re not trying to force it in one box or the other.

You might allow for some changes that aren’t radical but kinda help in the process, while we’re in this watchful, waiting time period, but you’re trying to go with the least radical adjustments possible as long as you can.

Darrell Bock
Because part of what you’re trying to sort out is, is this going to sort itself out simply over time?
Tim Yoder
Right.
Gary Barnes
For most people, it doesn’t end up going the direction that they’re experiencing at their age.
Darrell Bock
Yeah.
Gary Barnes
Okay.
Darrell Bock
That’s right, so there’s something to be said for just letting the clock run.
Gary Barnes
Watchful waiting.
Darrell Bock
Yeah.
Gary Barnes
But it’s not in isolation. It’s with.
Darrell Bock
Right, right.
Gary Barnes
See.
Tim Yoder
That’s good.
Gary Barnes
And you’re putting your emphasis on the identity in Christ that no matter where it’s gonna go, that’s what you’re gonna need anyway.
Tim Yoder
That’s right.
Darrell Bock
Right, right, because that in the end helps to determine how the person deals with how they end up seeing themselves.
Gary Barnes
It’s the most important they can do no matter what.
Darrell Bock
Right, right.
Tim Yoder
Really, that’s true.
Darrell Bock
True of all of us.
Gary Barnes
Yes, right.
Darrell Bock
Yeah.
Tim Yoder
That’s right.
Darrell Bock
Okay, well, wow [laughter.]
Gary Barnes
Now families are gonna need a lot of support doing that —
Tim Yoder
Yeah.
Gary Barnes
— and churches are gonna need to support families doing that.
Tim Yoder
Absolutely.
Gary Barnes
And somebody’s gotta be supporting churches to be able to do all of that.
Darrell Bock
So —
Gary Barnes
Because it’s not gonna be the auto-pilot response.
Darrell Bock
No, no.
Tim Yoder
It’s not.
Darrell Bock
Everything is working in – I mean you’re being – everyone’s being challenged to some degree because it’s not the norm. It’s the anomaly.
Gary Barnes
That’s right.
Darrell Bock
Yeah.
Tim Yoder
Of course.
Darrell Bock
Well, we’re out. We are out of time. There obviously is more we could discuss but I think this has laid a good groundwork between this and the previous part that we’ve done in thinking through this.

There’s no doubt this is – you know the irony of this is of course 15 years ago, you probably wouldn’t have talked about this at all.

Tim Yoder
Right.
Darrell Bock
And now it’s something that everyone since has – they’re challenged by in thinking through this, trying to think through this both theologically and relationally is important.

And particularly institutions like churches that face this situation within their community and it’s not – it’s not only – it’s arising for a reason, need help. So I wanna thank you all for helping us begin to think through this.

Gary Barnes
And thank you for bringing the topic to the table.
Tim Yoder
That’s right.
Darrell Bock
Well, glad to do it.
Tim Yoder
This is an important conversation.
Darrell Bock
Yeah, well, we’ll continue to – we have – we, as we do with several things, cut this from several different angles each time we come at it and I think that helps to give a fuller picture but yeah, I still feel like we’ve just touched the top of the iceberg.

I wanna thank you for joining us on The Table. We hope this has been helpful and if you have topics that you would like for us to consider, you can contact us at TheTable@DTS.edu and we will take them under consideration. We are – desire to be responsive to you as an audience and we thank you for being a part of The Table, and hope you will join us again soon.

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Darrell L. Bock
Dr. Bock is senior research professor of New Testament and executive director for cultural engagement at Dallas Theological Seminary. He has authored or edited more than forty books, including Jesus according to Scripture: Restoring the Portrait from the Gospels, Jesus in Context: Background Readings for Gospel Study, Studying the Historical Jesus: A Guide to Sources and Methods, Jesus the Messiah: Tracing the Promises, Expectations, and Coming of Israel’s King, Who Is Jesus?: Linking the Historical Jesus with the Christ of Faith, and Key Events in the Life of the Historical Jesus: A Collaborative Exploration of Context and Coherence.
Gary Barnes
Dr. Barnes is an ordained minister and a licensed psychologist who specializes in marriage and family research, counseling, and training. After graduating from DTS he served as an assistant pastor for seven years. While in the New York area he was a research project coordinator at NYU Medical Center’s Family Studies Clinic and later completed a two-year postdoctoral fellowship through Parkland Hospital (Dallas) and the Child Guidance Clinics of Dallas and Texoma. His great celebrations of life are his wife, four adult kids plus three more by marriage, seven grandkids, and bicycle racing.
Tim Yoder
Dr. Timothy Yoder has been teaching at various universities, mostly Cairn University and Marquette University, for over 25 years. He has taught a wide variety of courses, primarily Philosophy, Ethics and Apologetics, but also topics like World Religions, Logic, Aesthetics, Philosophy of C. S. Lewis, and Church History. The challenge of teaching feeds his love of learning and reading, as well as his desire to integrate topics and disciplines together in a cohesive Christian worldview. In addition to teaching, Dr. Yoder has served overseas in various capacities. In the 90s, he served as a missionary in Vologda, Russia. He has also ministered and taught in India, France, Ukraine, and Italy. He and his wife, Lisa, enjoy travel and missions, reading and NFL football. They have led numerous student trips to Macedonia together.
Faith & Work
Dec 10, 2019
Abby HattebergLuke HattebergLuke HattebergBill HendricksBill Hendricks
Faith, Work, and Woodworking In this episode Bill Hendricks interviews Luke and Abby Hatteberg, discussing how faith and work come together through their woodworking business.
Ministry
Dec 3, 2019
Anna SchaeferAnna SchaeferDan BryggerDan BryggerKymberli CookKymberli Cook
Prison Ministry and Reintegration In this episode, Kymberli Cook, Anna Schaefer, Tristan Tenny, and Dan Brygger discuss prison ministry, focusing on how the church can minister to prisoners and ex-offenders.