From Unwanted to Most Wanted: The Testimony of Bill Lawrence

Effective Pastoring Giving Vision, Direction, and Care to Your Church by Bill Lawrence and Charles Swindoll 

Wilderness Wanderings: Learning to Live in the Zigzag Life by Bill Lawrence 

Developing the Leader’s Heart: How Jesus Shaped 12 Men in 3 Years to Change the World by Bill Lawrence  

Milyce Pipkin: 

Hi there and welcome to the Table Podcast where we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of theology to everyday life. I'm Milyce Pipkin. I am a communications sort of assistant, if you will, at the Hendricks Center, and it's my great pleasure to work at the Hendricks Center where what we do is to come alongside and help leaders in the Christian life to understand what it is that they're being called to do. And we do that through various programs. And so I could go on and on and on about what the Hendricks Center does, but more importantly is what we're going to be talking about here on the Table podcast today, because we're going to be talking to a gentleman who helped to found our center and the work that he has done has gone on to mentor hundreds and thousands of people around the world in ministry to be the leaders that they've been called to be. And so I'm just so grateful to bring to you today here on The Table, none other than Bill Lawrence. Thank you so much for being here, Bill. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

My privilege. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

We could go on and on and on about your resume. And in fact, I do want to do that because our subject today is how you went from being the most unwanted to the most wanted. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Amen. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Yeah. And so I wanted you to come, you and I had the great privilege of meeting one another at a barbecue where we did a little family reunion of sorts for the Hendricks Center, and I had the opportunity to meet you. And when you asked me about my genre as one of the hosts here of The Table, just sort of what kinds of things do I like to talk about? I said, "My thing as a host is to talk about people's testimonies." 

And you said, "Boy, do I have a testimony for you." So we want to hear that testimony, because I want to know about a person who goes from the most unwanted to the most wanted. But without confusing you, Bill, I'm going to start with being the most wanted, because you are, or you have been, you've led a life where you were well sought-after for what you do in coaching ministers around the world. Tell us a little bit about someone who's most wanted in the ministry like yourself. And I know you're very humble about this, so try not to be too humble, some of the things that you've done. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Well, I've had the magnificent privilege of being a pastor. What a magnificent experience that was in San Jose, California back in the day when San Jose was going from being orchards to houses and all kinds of people who were living in wonderful places, from small houses to huge houses, from neighborhoods to the Almaden Valley and from simple people to working at GE and IBM and engineers with fantastic backgrounds and creativity. And few people know that over the hill, once you got past South San Jose, IBM had a magnificent creative place where some of the most brilliant people in the world were gathered together to do whatever they wanted to do to create something brand new. And some of those people were in the church that we started. We started with nothing, and in 12 years we had 800 people. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

And that was something you always wanted to do. You mark yourself as a pastor, a professional leadership developer, and you were also a professor here at Dallas Theological Seminary. And so kind of tell us a little bit about how all of those things, and even some of the things that I'm not even mentioning because I'm leaving it for you to tell us a little bit more about your resume, those things parlayed into you becoming the most wanted, one of the most wanted people for leadership development. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Well, I was a student here at Dallas Seminary. I came through as a student and worked hard and enjoyed being a student. I focused on what I really wanted to do, and tried to do my best and went through with the master's degree and the doctorate. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

And that's not easy to do here at DTS, by the way. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Well, it's tougher now than it was when I got it. And it was tough enough then. But I got the degree and through Howie Hendricks and Charles Ryrie in particular, those men had significant influence in my life. And I did internships and gradually got to the place where I met my wife and we were married and I became very engaged and we together, my wife and I together became very engaged in planting the church that I mentioned. Then I received an invitation to come for an interview to be a professor, and somewhat reluctantly, rather reluctantly in fact, we came from San Jose to Dallas, and I interviewed and after some thought said yes to an invitation to be a professor in the Pastoral Ministries department where I taught how to be a leader as a pastor. And how to pastor, and then some specialties and with a particular focus on the spiritual life ,that has always been extremely, extremely essential for me. And so I put a lot of time into that as a professor. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

So you taught a lot of students here, and I'm saying a lot because you would know more about the number of students' lives that you touched while you were a professor, just like you know about all of the lives that you touched around the world in various places that you've gone and taught. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Well, I've probably had 2,000 students in 24 years, you're going to have lots of students. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Yes, for sure. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

And so you just have them. They're sitting in the classroom. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Right. And so now what made your approach to helping leaders maybe different or unique to Bill Lawrence's touch on the lives of these leaders? 

 Bill Lawrence: 

I think it's a combination of things. One is being unwanted and not knowing it fully until I was 21 years old. But being unwanted made a real difference in my life. I think being a pastor, I never stopped being a pastor. In fact, one of the men that meant the most to me was Michael Easley, who's a graduate of Dallas Seminary. And Michael Easley stopped me one day when we were walking one floor up on the third floor of this building, and I was walking to my office and he was walking from my department, and he stopped and he said to me, "We don't think of you." He was in his fourth year. "We don't think of you as a professor. We think of you as a pastor." And then he started walking real fast because you don't tell professors, "We don't think of you as a professor." 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Right. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

He doesn't know that he had said the greatest thing that was ever said to me as a professor. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

He got an A. No, I'm just kidding. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

I had this crazy idea. Who wants to be a professor when you can care about people and love them and be at their bedside when they're dying, and you can be with them, and make a difference in their lives. So you know a lot. So you can say a lot, so you can write something. What's more important than anything is being with people who are suffering, and you can suffer with them. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Sounds like the story of our Savior. You know what I mean? 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Yeah. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

And I think that's probably why I love people's testimony so much is you get an opportunity to hear about their faith walk, what led them to Christ and/or how they've been with Christ all their lives. And that leads me to go ahead and just dive in. I'm not going to hold you any longer by not telling what Bill's story is about being the most unwanted. Tell us a little bit about your beginning Bill. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

It was a cold night in February, 1938 when a man and a woman got together. Why? We don't know. Probably money, but we don't know for sure. But they got together for fun, because that's what sex is all about. So they probably had fun, but what they didn't know and she found out was they had me, but we don't know anything about him. I have no idea if he wanted me, but I'm not sure she did. In fact, I know she did not want me. She kept me for four years. I was born in November of that year. So I was conceived in February, born in November and kept until nearing the end of August, 1943. And then a decision was made. If this little boy is not adopted, he's going to be put in an orphanage. 

And it specifically was going to be a Roman Catholic orphanage because that was that woman's background, and that's where he's going to be put. But there was a woman named Mother Keeler. Mother Keeler took in troubled people and she had me, and it was all kinds of people from me to old people. We were all there living in her home and she had us there. And she knew a man who himself had been a troubled man, and had come to know the Lord. And he was now the assistant pastor of the church. And she said to that man, "Do you know anybody who wants to adopt a little boy?" And he did. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Wow. Look at God. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

And he introduced Bill and Mildred Lawrence to me. And I went from being Douglas Francis Rice to William David Lawrence like that. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

What a story. God will do it. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

But it wasn't that easy, because I had a temper. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Probably angry about not being wanted. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

That's exactly right. Only they didn't understand that, especially my mom, who was heartbroken because I cried because she figured he doesn't want me to be his mother. So they took me back. But the only thing is that wasn't the case. I was crying because I wanted her to be my mother. So we were back together permanently, and we had to figure it out. And I finally told her one day, she's on her knees crying to God. And I said to her, "Mom, I won't do this again. I won't do this again." And I never did it. And in that process, that's how I came to know the Lord. That's how I came to decide to be a preacher. That's how I determined to become a pastor. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

How old were you? 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Five. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Five years old and you already knew you wanted to be a pastor? Just called, you were just called and you just… 

 Bill Lawrence: 

We went to one of the strongest churches in Philadelphia, in that day it was called Berachah Church from the Old Testament. Berachah was a place of praise and honor for the Lord in the Old Testament. And Berachah Church in Philadelphia was a blue-collar church, one of the largest churches in the city, about a thousand people or more in the city. And I went there. The first Sunday, I still remember, I went to Sunday School and it was a brunette. She was pretty, and she was wonderful to just listen to. And I was in love with Sunday School, and I wanted to go to Sunday School, and I was in the process. Then on Sunday nights, we would listen to the radio and hear other churches that were on the radio in those days. And that was when I was in the process of saying, "I want to know Jesus." And then saying, "I want to tell people about Jesus." I made that decision when I was five years old, and it's never changed. Ever, never, ever. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

So as a five-year-old, if you knew that and you were answering that call at that early age, you must have started touching lives like five until right now sitting here. That's a lot of people. As a five-year-old, I know that you were telling us how you were doing in the church and how you had this crush on this beautiful brunette, but what types of things can you remember that you were doing as a five-year-old to evangelize people or share the gospel? 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Well, I just did whatever I did in the neighborhood. And I don't know if you understand, probably you do, but the city, the city was a real, it was really… Well, there were row houses, you have to understand, but you have to know the Northeast, Baltimore, Philadelphia in particular had similar settings. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

I'm familiar with that in the row houses. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

So the row houses, and we were in a row house, had a basement, 300 square feet. First floor, second floor. We had just 900 square feet in the whole house. I mean, it was a small house, and I was the whole thing. And I would be there and pray every night, kneel by my bed and learn how to pray and pray every night. And I did that all the way until I was 21 years old and left to come to Dallas Theological Seminary. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

That's wonderful. Did you ever get a chance to go back and thank Mother Keeler? 

 Bill Lawrence: 

You know, I never did, and there was a reason. My mom never ever wanted me to know I was adopted. I did not know I was adopted until I was 21 years old. And in March of my 21st year, a man came to me and offered me a job, and I said, "Why are you offering me a job? I'm leaving. I'm leaving in September. I don't want a job. I've got a job." And he said to me, "I'm Donald, I'm your brother." And I had been separated from my half-brother for all of those years. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Almost two decades, yeah, that's a long time. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

And because my mom did not want me to know I was adopted. And so that's how I learned I was adopted. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Okay. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

They buried it. I buried it. The only one I ever told I was adopted was my wife and her parents. I felt I could not legitimately marry into a family that did not know who and what I was. So I told them. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

That was fair. You wanted to start off right. Tell the truth. Truth sets you free. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Oh, yes, absolutely. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

All that good stuff. 59 years of marriage, you celebrate with the lovely Lynna, right? 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Lynna. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Lynna, I'm just being silly. Lynna Lawrence, a wonderful, wonderful, bubbly young lady. You really got blessed with her. The Lord blessed you with a good wife. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Oh, unbelievable. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Yeah. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Unbelievable. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

And a good life. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

And a magnificent life. We have had just a great harmony working together, interacting with each other, making decisions together, working on things. There's a very interesting thing about us. There's a test that we have taken that assesses you. It's an interpersonal kind of thing. And in this particular test, we are both perfectionists. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

That doesn't exist now, now, now, now. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

She and I are both perfectionists. The thing is, I'm at level 10 on big things. If you got a big problem, I'll solve it a big way. She has a perfectionist in the smallest way possible. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Minute details. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Give us the smallest thing, that's how we'll solve it. So, we never argue over big things or little things. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Small things. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

I just do the big things. She just does the little things. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

I told you, this is a blessing. You have been blessed. I mean, you met like- 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Tell me, tell me. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

… a really good partner to live life with, look at God. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Who could have planned that? Who could have planned that? 

Milyce Pipkin: 

God. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Yes. Yahweh. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Yahweh. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

I say Yahweh. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Yes, yes, yes. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Jehovah. Yahweh, the sovereign Lord. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

So now since there was this, I don't want to say it's secret, but no one wanted it to be known that you were adopted. Did you ever get a chance to see your mom or know your dad? 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Goodness, no. None. Your dad? 

Milyce Pipkin: 

No. She wanted no contact. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Okay. But now obviously if you have gone on to be a pastor and a professional pastoral leadership developing person that you've become, you had to work on forgiveness. That had to be… 

Forgiveness for what? 

Milyce Pipkin: 

I don't know. I'm asking was that a problem? 

 Bill Lawrence: 

My goodness. No, that's one of things I- 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Forgiveness was not a problem. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

… I'll tell you, this is something I don't understand about people who've been adopted and who struggle with it and seem almost to hold it against the parents who didn't want to keep them. And I think to myself, I don't understand that. The greatest thing that ever happened to me was that the woman who did not want me, who wants to be wanted by you. My mom and dad had no background. My dad was from a small town in Delaware, Seaford, Delaware. He was 14 when his father died. My dad never had an opportunity to become anything but a blue collar, bluest blue collar in the world. My mom came from seven miles south of the Maryland-Delaware state line, and they met at a fair, a local fair. She lied about her age and got married when she was 13 because her parents were divorced. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Interesting. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

She was 29 when she came to know the Lord, and five years later she got me. And the first thing she did was teach me the Bible. Bible. I say to people, "You've been adopted. If you've had a good adoption, why are you upset about that? The people who for whatever reason did not keep you have done something for you that's phenomenal. Look what's happened to me. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Wow. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Who else could go to over 40 countries? I've done that. I've done that. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Amazing. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

I've ministered to leaders. I've been to China 15 times. I've been to the Philippines at least a dozen times. I've been to Brazil at least a dozen times. I have an ongoing ministry ~in Eastern and Western Europe. It is very strategic. It only is possible because I was adopted. Stop complaining, turn around and look at what the adopted parents tried to do for you and get in there and help them do it. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

I love that. We need to use that. That needs to be like, you need to be the poster child for encouraging children who are products of adoption to realize that you're with parents who love you and want you. You're most wanted with them. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Yes. You're the most wanted. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Yeah, you're the most wanted. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

That's why you go from the most unwanted- 

Milyce Pipkin: 

I love it. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

… to the most wanted. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Yes. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

That's the story of my life. I'm writing a book about that. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

So when we see you, what's the word that would explain who you are or describe who Bill Lawrence is? What would you think would be a word? Because I have one in mind. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Well, first of all, I'm old. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

No, that's not the word. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

I'm grateful, and I think only of grace. Grace is the primary word of my life. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Praise the Lord. I see that. I see grace sitting before me when I hear your story, and I see the love of God in you, and I'm so grateful that you've been able to share that with men and women, not only here at DTS, but around the world because we need more of you. And so I'm grateful for that. I would be remiss if I didn't talk about some of those books sitting on the table. We don't necessarily want to advertise the books, but the point of me mentioning them and you bringing them is just to see some of the works that you have had the opportunity to author and to be a part of. And starting with one here that I believe you did with some of the faculty member here at DTS. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Yes. One is called Pastoring. So it's a book that hasn't been around for a long time now, but it's on how to pastor. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

And you know something, bill, if you go from wanting to be a pastor to actually training men or women on how to be pastors, effective pastors, effective spiritual leaders. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

But you have to understand that I learned this through Howard Hendricks by Ray Stedman. Many people may not know the name Ray Stedman, but if there's any name that any listener should pay attention to, it's Ray Stedman. He's on the web. You can get to him, you can read anything he wrote. He understood the spiritual life. He was a blue collar guy who became the most real man I ever knew, and he was her pastor. And what a radical difference he made. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Bock and her pastor pointing to Lena. Lena just 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Saying, my wife. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Yes, my wife, just in case you're wondering who her he is. Okay, so you've written this book and that was part of the faculty here at DTS, and you have another 

 Bill Lawrence: 

One. This book on wilderness wanderings is just the whole idea that God takes us through some difficult times in life. We end up in these very painful areas of life. And confusion and uncertainty say, what are you doing? And one of the things I've learned is that it's time to stop complaining and it's time to shut up, and it is time to get attention to his word and to just start trusting, trusting, trusting, trusting. And then there is this one, which is Developing the Leader's Heart, which is really a book that simply takes the concepts of disciple-making, of forming others leaders and making them more and more like the Lord. I had an email this morning from Chip Ingram. Many people know about Chip Ingram. Chip is a major leader across the United States and around the world, and he's using my book. That's what he wrote about to me. He's using my book and the men that he's influencing. That is just amazing to me. Who would do that? Only the sovereign God. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Right. Only God. But it was also the work, it's God. It's also you being obedient to the word and the work that God put before you to do. And so again, you've also had a big influence at the Hendrick Center. Tell us about some of the work that you did there in the early development stages of our center here on campus. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Well, at the center we had a team. We had a core of men and women who were committed to learning and growing and developing, and we were putting our thinking together. We had a training process. We had sessions for men and sessions for women, and we had a two-year process that we took people through in a very consistent paces, and it was all basically drawn from the Gospels and we applied it to the lives of people and we interacted with them. We found people who were struggling with themselves and needed freedom, and we wanted to set them free. That was our target, that was our aim, and that was how we went about doing what we were doing in the academic setting. We were not academically-centered. We certainly met academic demands. We were part of an academic institution, but our primary concern was the heart. The heart is the primary issue. The heart is the primary issue. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

And I certainly get that. Talk about the heart. If your heart isn't right, then number one, you've got a God issue right there. If your heart isn't right, you can walk around and pretend to be the biggest Christian ever there was, but at the end of the day, God knows, and it can be a mockery. So we all have to do the heart check when it comes to God. It's the heart in the right place. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Well, it's very fascinating to have Yahweh, the Lord talking to, in Bethlehem, talking to those who are going to, he was going to choose a king, and he looks at them and he says, man looks on the outward appearance, but Yahweh looks at the heart. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Right. Bill, just want to give you an opportunity as our time starts to wind down, I want to give you an opportunity to kind of give us an idea if we had been students in the classroom, what would we have learned, and/or, not that this is two questions. It can be one, but if someone was to go through leadership development with you, what types of things would they have learned or what types of things do you teach about the heart of a leader or the things that leaders need to learn, possess, do to be effective leaders, Christian leaders. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Well the first dimension is to be on your knees before the Lord asking about your heart. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Okay. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

What is there in your heart that I the Lord want to change? How willing are you to pay the price? Jesus said, "Is there any other way? Any other way I can redeem? And the answer clearly in John 17 was, "There is no other way." The cross, the cross, the cross. So the first thing we're going to do is to take people to the place where they have to face the cross in their lives. How is the cross going to penetrate your life? How is the cross going to go right to the depth of your heart? How is the cross going to take you to the very place you don't want to go? That you put in that corner, in that corner, in that corner and that corner. Now, once you get there, once you face it, once you're broken, once you weep, once you've lost hope, you're going to discover something else. It's called resurrection. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Praise the Lord. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Resurrection. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Yes. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Because the sovereign Lord is already there. He's waiting for you. Anytime you go through sin and you have finally to acknowledge it, you will suddenly discover that Yahweh has always been right there. You're at the grave, you walk out of the grave, you're looking for him all around, and just turn around because he's right there. He's waiting for you, and all of a sudden he's there, and he's raising you up. Then he says to you, "What about these gifts? You haven't been using them, or you haven't used them the right way. Let's go. I want to use you." That's what he's saying. I want to use you. I want to use you. I want to use you. I want to use you. Let's go. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

I love it. I love that. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Now, find the other people who are facing sin in their lives. Bring them out together. Find their gifts with them. Take your gifts with their gifts. Put all these gifts together, make this a team and let's go. Understand the 21st century, understand what the issues are. Understand what the struggles are, understand what the ability is, understand what the futility is. Let's go. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

It's almost like you're leading a charge now. I just need to be ready to go in the army of the Lord. We need to be ready to go make disciples. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

That's right. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Yeah. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

That's exactly right. Because you see, there's only one reason why we're on earth. Make disciples. Each according to our gifts, each according to our relationships, each according to our struggles, each according to the way of life we've been given. You know something, I want to say this to business people. 98% of the people you find in the Bible who are strategic are in business. Interesting. Check it out. Check it out. The vast majority, very few were pastors, not the pastors don't matter they do, but they're important for only one reason, pastors are important to enable pastors or business people to be what Yahweh called them to be. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

I don't want to start naming them, but now that you said that, I am thinking, I'm thinking of tent makers. I'm thinking of fishermen, I'm thinking of pastors. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Of course you are. How can you think of anything else? 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Yeah, you're thinking about those occupations that were there. We don't think about it. And they would've been in business. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

How can you think of anybody else? 

Milyce Pipkin: 

We're in the business of doing our Father's business. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

That's right. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Amen. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

That's right. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Yeah. So if you have someone who's listening today to your testimony about going from the most unwanted to the most wanted, you mentioned some advice about how to look at being adopted, but what would you say to a person who may be in a space where they're feeling unwanted, and they need to know that there's a space where they can become who God called them to be and that they are very much wanted in the body of Christ? 

 Bill Lawrence: 

There is no empty space. Humanly speaking, spaces look empty, but get on your knees. Get somewhere where you can be by yourself. Cry out to God. Silence is your best friend. Be still, be quiet, and say to the Lord, "Whatever you want, I want. Tell me what I need to want." 

Milyce Pipkin: 

That's good. When I was a student here at DTS just a few moons ago, I had to do a class where I had to develop a sermon of sorts, and deliver that sermon to my class. And I wrote about anxiety, and that wasn't the title of it, but it was about dealing with anxiety. And so long story short, the issue I had was me personally being someone who was dealing with what was diagnosed as post-traumatic stress syndrome. And I remember going to one of the professors here, Dr. Lanier Burns. You may know Dr. Burns. I went up to him. He is a teacher or was a professor here who taught some of the classes that you would be taking in theology here, but he's retired since. So you won't be that blessed. But there are a whole host of other professors who are very good at what they do and their gifting God has given them. 

But Dr. Burns, I went to him. He was just one of those professors who was very approachable. And I said, "Dr. Burns, I have something that's really weighing on me and I don't know who to talk to about this." And I said, "I have to deliver a sermon today to a class of women on effective ministry, women teaching women and preaching. And I said, and I really feel bad about this because I chose a topic to talk about that I'm not an expert on. In fact, I'm struggling with it. As I even talk to you, I'm struggling with what I deal with with anxiety. And Dr. Burns said something to me that day that resonates with me somewhat today with you. 

And what he said was, "You don't have to be an expert, but you have to be a witness." And so when I think about the work that you've done, you've been a witness in that you've gone out and you've done the work and you've been doing the work. But I'm praying and I'm grateful that now you get to be a witness to tell your testimony, because that story that I was going to tell had to do a lot to do with my testimony. And then you today get a chance to do this. How often have you gotten a chance to tell someone your testimony? Because it's beautiful. You probably don't do that much. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Oh no. I think I probably tell it as often as I can in a natural and positive in the way that glorifies God. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Yes. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

John 15 is one of the primary passages of scripture in my life, and I am a branch and the life of the vine through me is what I'm about. It's what my life is about. And so I tell that, and that's what I try to do. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Well, you know, could have gone the other way in life as so many people do. So for sure, as we sit here and we look at you and we hear your testimony, we see grace, because many people who come from an unwanted background don't bounce back from that if they don't find the Lord, or if they don't answer the calling that's been put on their life from the Lord. So I guess I'm saying all that to say that yes, you are a testament of God's grace, and so am I, Thank God. Just going forward, if you have a word of encouragement to a leader who is a pastor, you've given us some advice. You've kind of walked us through a little bit about what you would've taught if someone were in your classroom or under your mentorship. But just going forward, someone listening, what would they walk away with with this particular podcast here on The Table knowing Bill Lawrence, what would you want them to walk away with? What nuggets of wisdom, of love would you want to pass on? 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Well, I guess I'd want them to walk away probably more than anything else with John 15. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Okay. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

The life of Jesus through you, bearing amazing fruit. Who would've ever thought that a kid in Philadelphia on a hot summer day when everybody else was in the house and I was out and I was walking one foot on the curb, one foot in the gutter, looking down for coins, finding pennies, dimes, a quarter, finding that, making that my treasure. Who would've ever thought that he was going to go to China 15 times? 

Milyce Pipkin: 

And not only that, you've left some golden nuggets of wisdom in places like China, but not just China. You've been to Brazil. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Exactly. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

You've been to some pretty big places around the world. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

I've done nothing, nothing of me. I've done nothing of me. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

But what you've done is like a rippling effect in sharing your gifting. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Matthew 28, the other passage that has not been mentioned, but that is very strategic for me is Philippians chapter 2. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Oh yeah. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

And having the mind. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Oh yeah, of Christ. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

The mind of Jesus, having the mind of Christ, think his way, change your mind, walk away from your mind, and realize that when it looked like nothing was going to go your way, everything went His way. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

And should still be going His way. Because it's all about His way and His will. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

It is still going His way. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

That's right. I'm giving you a last word before we wrap up here Bill. I know you are grateful for such a wonderful wife and life, ministry. In your ministry now, in your, I would assume you're retired, but knowing you not so. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

No, no, no. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

What do you still do? 

 Bill Lawrence: 

I'm not retired. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

What are you up to these days? See, I knew it. What do you still do these days? I heard you during the podcast talking about you're going to be writing on a book. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

I have a bible study. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

You have a Bible study, 

 Bill Lawrence: 

I have a Bible study. I have to prepare diligently for it for tomorrow morning in our building. So I have that every week, and I'm trying to write a book, and I'm thinking- 

Milyce Pipkin: 

You're trying to write a fourth book. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

And I am thinking about having a podcast. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

All right. Awesome. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Which is crazy. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Why would you say that, Bill, you'd be good for that. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Just seems insane. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

It's okay. I'm grateful that you decided to join us here for The Table Podcast. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

Thank you for having me. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Absolutely. Wanted to hear your testimony after meeting you and hearing about how you went from the most unwanted to the most wanted. I thought that was just really, really beautiful, beautiful testimony. And I'm grateful to be one of the hosts of The Table who had the great opportunity to sit down alongside you and hear what the Lord put in heart. 

 Bill Lawrence: 

And I'm grateful that you chose to interact with me. Thank you. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Awesome. Awesome. You take care. All right, that's all the time we have for now for The Table. Here is where we get an opportunity to just see God and culture and the relevance of theology to life. And here is where I get the great opportunity to talk and meet people like Bill Lawrence and to share the Lord with you. And I'm so grateful that you're there with us. 

If you like this podcast, we just hope that you would just like us on whatever podcast venue that you listen to us on, wherever you listen, wherever you review the podcast, we just want you to say, "Hey, I like that." And it just helps us a lot to know what you're listening to and how we can continue to bring you great programming. For now, I'm Milyce Pipkin, and thank you so much for joining us here on The Table Podcast where we talk about God and culture and the relevance of theology to everyday life. May God bless you and keep you until the next time.