Why Bible Exposition Matters

Validity in Interpretation by E.D. Hirsch 

Darrell Bock: 

Welcome to The Table podcast, where we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of theology to everyday life. And our topic today is Biblical Exposition, and I have a really special guest sitting next to me, Dr. Elliottt Johnson, who taught here for 46 years. Is that right? 

Elliott Johnson: 

47. Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

In Bible exposition, 47 years and he goes way back. I go way back, and at one point for three years I was his grader. So this is bringing together a very… How can I say? Deadly combination. But it's great to have you, Elliottt. 

Elliott Johnson: 

Thank you. 

Darrell Bock: 

Glad you could be with us. 

Elliott Johnson: 

Thank you. 

Darrell Bock: 

Now, our topic is Biblical Exposition and some people might ask, "Well, what in the world is that?" We're actually going to try and answer that question while we're together, and it is part of the uniqueness of Dallas Seminary that rather than having just an Old and New Testament Department to do biblical studies and to examine the Bible, that there is special attention given to the exposition of the Bible in a department called Bible Exposition. So can you connect that to the founding of the seminary and why the Bible Exposition Department exists here? 

Elliott Johnson: 

I thank you, Darrell. I look forward to that, by the way. And I wanted to start by saying I appreciate renewing our friendship, and also giving an opportunity to speak about Bible exposition. I understand that it goes back to Dr. Chafer, who in his day was a musician. And in his musical role, he supported many of the outstanding preachers of his day. And in doing so, he formed certain convictions on why some were more effective than others and they all revolved around exposition. So in his developing the seminary, he wanted to include a Department of Bible Exposition. Now, I understand the difference between the two as this. Exegesis is understanding in the near or narrow context. Exposition is understanding in the context of the whole book. 

And so you're understanding the same particulars, but you're studying them in different contexts. And going back to the Reformation, exegesis was very well-known, grammatical historical interpretation. As it became taking on a broader perspective, those writing in the field have written from a literary perspective and they would call the interpretation to be the meaning that the author intended as a willed type meaning, and type actually referring to the type of literature that we're dealing with. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

So in comparing the two, grammatical, historical as opposed to literary, grammatical, historical. You don't leave the last two. You include those, but you bring them and see them in the context, the literary structure of the book. 

Darrell Bock: 

Particularly today with so much emphasis on story and narrative and that kind of thing, that brings into dimension that has come, I would say back into some prominence. But this was something that the school was always concerned about. You mentioned preachers of the past, et cetera, just names for people who may not be connected with this is H.A. Ironside was associated with the school. On the theological side, you had Griffith Thomas, who actually was going to be the first systematic theologian of the school, but unfortunately the Lord took him early before the school really got off the ground. 

And so Chaffer was trying to wed both the academic work of what was going on with the Bible from a standpoint of trusting what the Bible had to say, along with its exposition in preaching and the delivery of that message to an audience. When I think of exposition, I'd love to get your reaction to this, when I think of exposition, I think of not only dealing with the book as a whole, but also thinking about how to expound that text so that it has a connection and relevance to where people are today and being able to cross that bridge as well? 

Elliott Johnson: 

Well, that's certainly the case. They were speaking to an audience then, and I would look at the Bible as being trans-historical. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. 

Elliott Johnson: 

In other words, it's not written with such specific historical ties that it can't be read in a later generation and see the broader message applying then as it did in the original audience. 

Darrell Bock: 

So that's actually a great observation because I think one of the tendencies, and now this may surprise you that I'll say this since I'm in New Testament, and that is sometimes the challenge of strictly staying in a historical context is you end up limiting what the passage is doing and saying. 

Elliott Johnson: 

That's right 

Darrell Bock: 

Because you limit it to the particular context in which it finds itself, rather than stepping back and asking, "All right, what's happening here?" In a larger, more principled way that I can then apply so that the Bible speaks not just to the particular time to which the book was written, but to all times and all places. 

Elliott Johnson: 

Exactly. 

Darrell Bock: 

Because when God put it in scripture, he had in mind, "I'm going to use this beyond the original setting." 

Elliott Johnson: 

That's right. And what I'm interested in, what I would like to see communicated today is how this can become a part of the local church. It's not that we're trying to instruct the preachers, that's the job of the seminary. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

But our lay people can read their Bibles, they can understand their Bibles, and they need that. They need that interaction with the scriptures, so that what Chafer brought to Dallas Seminary is a Department of Bible Exposition. We can now see and apply in the local church to where the local church believer is and they can participate in it as well. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's interesting. You've got one other technical term that you used earlier that we probably should fill in for people and that's the term, "Willed type." 

Elliott Johnson: 

Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

I'm smiling because that phrase and expression goes back to a figure known as E.D. Hersch in interpretation. So just to help people get located, Validity in Interpretation was the book. 

Elliott Johnson: 

That's correct. 

Darrell Bock: 

And the willed type has to do with… This gets us into authorial intent and that kind of thing, the goal of what you're after when you're pursuing the exposition of the scripture. So why don't you fill out the concept of willed type a little bit for us? 

Elliott Johnson: 

Well, the word, "Type," is a difficult word, but it's in order to try to land it in a meaningful way. But you're looking at the literature from its generic or genre point of view. Is this a historical writing? You can talk about a given subject from both a historical point of view or a hymn. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. So that would make a Psalm. Right? 

Elliott Johnson: 

Yeah, that's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. 

Elliott Johnson: 

Or wisdom. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. Proverbs. 

Elliott Johnson: 

That's right. So that the same topics are being discussed in the Old Testament as appear in the New Testament. 

Darrell Bock: 

But with traits that differ depending on the genre that you're dealing with. So if you're in apocalyptic, for example, dealing with a book like Revelation or sections of Daniel, you know you're going to get some symbolism that is symbolism because it isn't literal- 

Elliott Johnson: 

That's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

But it represents something. 

Elliott Johnson: 

That's right. Now, if we wanted to go to apocalyptic, I love the Book of Revelation. In fact, I'm teaching that to one of our groups in our church. And if I were to summarize what it's saying is that the revelation of Jesus Christ assures us that God has a plan which he's going to bring to a conclusion. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. So what you've just done, just to help people, you've taken the message of an entire book and basically said, "This at its core is what it's about." 

Elliott Johnson: 

That's correct. 

Darrell Bock: 

And so the ability to take many, many chapters and boil it down to, "Here's the hub point of the book," and then help people see how the book is structured to build that hub point and to show the elements of that hub point. Whereas Exegetes, just to again, do some contrast of work, tend to involved in all the details of the book and all the issues and debates associated with the book, et cetera. We tend to be down in dealing with the leaves and maybe even the veins in the leaves. Okay? Whereas you're taking a look and saying, "When I put this all together and I look at the forest as a whole that is this book, this is what this book is doing." 

Elliott Johnson: 

That's correct. And it's so helpful. The group that I'm working with, the number of couples that come, they have questions, "How is this related to current events?" Well, knowing that this period that it's talking about is not what's happening right now. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

And so we're not relating what John is describing that he has seen in vision, but we see these visions unfolding a plan that God is overseeing. Now, the analogy is in the way of applying it, that same plan, though not the content of the Book of Revelation, but that same God has a plan for today, and I can trust him. Even if I don't agree with the events that are going on, I can agree with him. 

Darrell Bock: 

I can rest in the assurance that there is a plan, that there is a hope that will be real one day, that shalom will come, that righteousness will be established- 

Elliott Johnson: 

Exactly. 

Darrell Bock: 

That evil will get dealt with et cetera. 

Elliott Johnson: 

Amen. 

Darrell Bock: 

And that does. That gives me a very different perspective and platform from which to view what oftentimes seems very chaotic about what's going on today and not over-evaluate what is going on around us as the dominant thing that I should be overly concerned about. 

Elliott Johnson: 

That's right. The Bible speaks in general terms to what's going on. It speaks about sin. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

It speaks about righteousness. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

And both are present today- 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

But not fully in anybody. Do any of us have a full righteousness- 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

Or a full evil? 

Darrell Bock: 

That's right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

And you get depressed by seeing such chaos, and yet that's what God wanted us to see because we're going to learn through that evil, both about ourselves and about him and about how we deal with the day in which we're living. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, that's great. So just to put a bow around this, the willed type is the way in which the author chooses to present and express himself. He usually does it through genre and other means. And then the goal of Bible Exposition or a goal of Bible Exposition is when it's all said and done, I ought to be able to in, if not a sentence, a sentence or two or three, summarize what this book is really about, and also recognize how I got there. 

Elliott Johnson: 

That's right. Now, seeing what the book is saying, that helps me to understand the particulars of the book. 

Darrell Bock: 

Fair enough. 

Elliott Johnson: 

Some of which may be very obscure. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

Babylon, the great Mystery Babylon. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

It seems to be located geographically in Rome, but it's speaking in terms of an earlier world power. And how do we interpret that? Well, we may not get the same agreement, but what we do get is that God understands what's happening and allows the interaction of that day in the future to resolve its problem and righteous judgment will come. 

Darrell Bock: 

And if you put that in the totality of scripture, you could go back to say a Book of Daniel where at one time, it was Babylon. At one time it was Medo-Persia. At one time it was Greece. And now in the time of the New Testament is the time of Rome, which might suggest that what you're dealing with is this is the way the world is structured apart from God, and these are the powers and associations that are associated with a world apart from God. And the challenge of revelation is the battle between a world seen not just apart from God, but actually being driven by malevolent forces as well that come against God and that God's going to win a victory over those forces eventually. 

Elliott Johnson: 

Amen. Amen. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's ultimately where that imagery is taking us. 

Elliott Johnson: 

Christ is going to be the victor in the end. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. And so I didn't know we were going to turn this into a podcast on revelation, but that's an example of how Bible Exposition works. But it works differently in different genres or in different willed types as you call them. 

Elliott Johnson: 

Yeah. Now, what I'd like to talk about is what happened in Bible Exposition at Dallas Seminary. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay, go for that. 

Elliott Johnson: 

It has existed now for 100 years. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

I came into the department in 1960. It was about 36 years old, 35 years old. And at that time, they felt that bringing in the preacher to lecture about the book was what was essential to happening in the department. So we had the lecturers coming in twice a year and we'd have two weeks set aside where the chapels were devoted to these lecturers coming in. And then we would take a test and we would know the outline that the preacher gave us, how the preacher handled certain of the issues within the book. 

Darrell Bock: 

So this wasn't a through-the-semester class. These were guest people coming in and- 

Elliott Johnson: 

That's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

Connecting you through a book? 

Elliott Johnson: 

That was originally what it was. 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting. 

Elliott Johnson: 

Now, they recognized that in doing that, even in a four-year course, having two books each year, you only covered eight books, and we have 66 books. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, that leaves a lot of holes. 

Elliott Johnson: 

Well, that's right. And we needed to transition to a local faculty- 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

That could have a greater responsibility in the extent of what scripture is. So we did transition and I think we learned really, two broad lessons. There were two figures that stood out in the history, at least as I look back at it. The first was Howard Hendricks. Howard Hendricks taught a course on Bible Study Methods. 

Darrell Bock: 

Which you helped teach with him for years. 

Elliott Johnson: 

I did. I did, but he so impacted my life that I came to the conviction that students to learn what the scripture is saying to them must first do the study. They can benefit what others have said. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

They can even agree with what others have said- 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

But they need to read it through for themselves. 

Darrell Bock: 

The ability to handle it independently. 

Elliott Johnson: 

That's right. And they need to handle it the way you've said as well, independently. One of the great emphasis that Howie made was personal application. There was a saying at Dallas Seminary in those days, this is before they had women in the student body or women on the faculty, and it was this, "You could always tell the way a Dallas man preached, just couldn't tell him much." Along with his preaching came an arrogance that was not biblically based. 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting. 

Elliott Johnson: 

And so Howie tried to address both issues with it, both how to understand the interpretation, and then how to deal with those personal problems of arrogance that often cropped up. 

Darrell Bock: 

And also, the different ways really sincere believers might read the text and be able to sort through that as well. 

Elliott Johnson: 

That's something that came later. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. 

Elliott Johnson: 

The other dominant figure is J. Dwight Pentecost. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. 

Elliott Johnson: 

Dr. Pentecost was a very careful reader of scripture, and as a result, he gave us the model of what exposition really is. It does involve that single idea that we've been talking about with revelation, but it also involves an argument that supports the truthfulness of that broad person. 

Darrell Bock: 

So how the particulars line up with the overall statements that you're coming to. 

Elliott Johnson: 

That's right. And that was the argument. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

And he helped us to do that. Now, the only difficulty was he never wedded that with what Dr. Hendricks was doing, and that's what the students wanted. So when I first came, we'd been missionaries in the Philippines and I was hired for one year and the students… 

Darrell Bock: 

One very long year. 

Elliott Johnson: 

It extended a while, but the students appreciated the chance to get involved in coming to answers for themselves. And that's introduced at a discussion that has continued through and we're doing that today as well. 

Darrell Bock: 

Sure. 

Elliott Johnson: 

So it seems to me that another aspect of what we were doing was something that we got involved in in our local church. If this was beneficial to the students to develop their spiritual maturity and to develop their use of the Bible, wouldn't this be good for all lay people? And one of the conclusions I came away with having taught in the Philippines for four years, the problem wasn't with the students. They were able. The problem was with the teachers. Could they help them give them enough insight to lead them to their own conclusions? 

So that it was about 1978 to '80. Randy Frazee was the pastor at our church and he had written a book on the connecting church, and he envisioned that the church ought to have three broad, distinct kinds of ministry. One is the pulpit, with the pastor preaching very necessary, very important. Another at the other end is the small group that meets in the home for personal fellowship. But between the two, you see, we're living culturally, this is a cultural podcast. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

It was true then, and it's true now that we're living in a day when we're biblically illiterate. So we together worked a plan where the pastor would preach on a given passage. Now, he would plan a whole expositional series, but he'd preach on passage after passage after passage. Then the laypeople and those of us on the staff working with the laypeople, we would write material that they could examine that same passage, not knowing what the pastor was going to say, but having the same passage. We could work on the passage, then the people could… We would write material, called it The Scroll, that led them to study the passage. On Sunday, they would come together and most of the classes met after the pastor preached. And then they could discuss both what does this mean and how does this affect our lives today? And it was largely a discussion. Now, you mentioned earlier that understanding of passages may differ. 

Darrell Bock: 

It just happens on occasion. 

Elliott Johnson: 

It just happens on occasion. Well, the irony is that the Protestant church has not solved it in the same way the Catholic Church did. 

Darrell Bock: 

Fair enough. 

Elliott Johnson: 

They have a leadership group that when they've decided, that's it. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. The magisterium, at all. 

Elliott Johnson: 

That's right. And we understand it a little differently. In fact, it came up a few weeks ago, and I tried to explain it this way. I had gone through the passage. On Saturday, we meet with the teachers and the material had gone through the passage. I felt there needed to be a bit of clarity in terms of what the passage was saying. And so I developed that as well. And then one of the men said, "Well, I think that's wrong." And he disagreed with me. So what do I do? Am I the pope to correct him or to have him fall in place? And that's not our role. 

We are what we would call holy priests, biblical priests in the sense that we all have access. Seminary doesn't give us unique access to the Bible. All of us as laypeople have access to the Bible. So I respect his position. So now, how do we resolve this? I think we resolve it, number one, and I said to him, "I love you. I respect you. I want you to be able to be free to share your point of view. Now, I'd like the freedom as well to express my point of view." 

Darrell Bock: 

Exactly right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

"I'd like you to give me the reasons why you hold yours. I'll give the reasons why I hold mine." And all of the teachers that are gathered, we've been working on this for about 30 years- 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

But we still have about 30 men and women who come together on Saturday morning at 7:30, stay for an hour and a half, and they have to reach conclusions that they can use in the Sunday School class the next day, but we don't tell them what conclusion to reach. We give them an opportunity to hear both, with the confidence that the Holy Spirit is working in us- 

Darrell Bock: 

In all of you. 

Elliott Johnson: 

In all of us. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. Right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

It's not particular to the seminary. It's not particular to the pastor. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

We're all part of the body of Christ, and therefore we give the teachers the opportunity to resolve that. Now, they may come to us and say, "I need more help here. Need to talk more about this," but it doesn't go to the point where we tell them what to say. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. Right. So this gets back to the independence idea, and of course, the Bible Study Methods course that all our first-year students still go through in one form or another, is designed to help people be able to read the Bible. We use the word, "Independently," that can be a good word or a bad word depending on what it means. So by independently mean to be able to get to the point where you can make judgments about what's going on in the text, not because you're shutting other voices out necessarily, but you really are concentrating on being sure you're being observant about the text. 

Elliott Johnson: 

That's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

And you're able to make judgment, and you're also able to wrestle with what it is you're hearing from other people as a result. You're not just simply saying, "Well, my authority is going to be person X." And so we developed that skill, which means you develop that ability also to converse. I actually think this is one of the values of a seminary education. The values of a seminary education is I not only understand and come to understand how to work with the scripture, but how I decide what it is that's going on in the scripture. 

Elliott Johnson: 

That's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

And in the midst of that, there are conversations that have to happen because people don't see things necessarily immediately the same way. 

Elliott Johnson: 

That's right. And this is where we were 35 years ago. 

Darrell Bock: 

When you were telling me how to grade the papers. That's right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

Before you went to Scotland,, we were working on the same problem together. I was just hoping that you would've come back. And this whole literary discussion is a very… So that you have a willed, in other words, an author wills to speak. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

Peter has a very interesting statement in Second Peter, chapter one, that, "No man ever willed to prophesy." 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. Right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

Because he has nothing to say about the future. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

He doesn't control the future. It's God whose wills. So all prophecy is willed by a divine author, and then having willed, he chooses a form to communicate it. Is he going to tell a story? Is he going to use a command? Is he going to write a letter? There are just various ways that the biblical leaders of the first century, apostles and prophets speak to us through scripture. And we want to take in consideration of what they're doing so that we can hear them. Because meaning, if you're going to have communication, I've got to use my language in the way you are choosing to use it, not the way I may want to use it. 

Darrell Bock: 

Because otherwise you're going to have to clarify what you mean. 

Elliott Johnson: 

That's right. And so much of today's discussions at a different range in the political realm, we're not using language to say the same thing. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. Right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

And we're speaking past each other. And so the only way to deal with it then is to silence the other person. That's not our desire. Our desire is to have our lay people speaking, and then to interact with them. 

Darrell Bock: 

I'm going to close the loop on the Peter passage because it's important is so on the one hand you have the expression of the individual human author, and then you have God who's behind, and I'll say it this way, all the human authors of the scripture- 

Elliott Johnson: 

Amen. 

Darrell Bock: 

I tell people, the only group that can have a conservative canonical theology in one sense that is coherent, would be the conservative who believes that there's actually ultimately one voice behind all the books. 

Elliott Johnson: 

Amen. Amen. 

Darrell Bock: 

And so if I just make it a conglomeration of a couple of dozen authors or more, then I'm going to introduce an element of conflict and confusion in the process. If I say there's one mind behind the whole operation from Genesis to Revelation, then I'm in a position of saying the pursuit of coherence in this makes sense because ultimately, there's one mind behind it. 

Elliott Johnson: 

Amen. Amen. 

Darrell Bock: 

And of course, Bible exposition goes a book at a time, might joke. So you talked about the influence of Hendricks and the influence of Pentecost. Who's responsible for the development of charting? Because obviously in the Bible Exposition Department, charting out the argument is another element of what we teach our students. 

Elliott Johnson: 

That's right. Literary, development involves a number of things. One is genre. The other is the order in which these topics are addressed. The school from which Dr. Hendricks got the material, Biblical seminary no longer exists. The way they approached it, which was more of a scientific approach rather than a literary approach, that scientific approach put great stress on structure. Now, that was helpful because it did order your material, but it didn't say how that material is going to be treated. 

Darrell Bock: 

In other words, the themes and how they're woven together underneath the structure? 

Elliott Johnson: 

That's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. 

Elliott Johnson: 

And how that was going to happen. That became the framework for your argument. It would arise out of that chart or structure. Now, I thought it might be helpful. I asked some of the men at our church to give their testimony, what does this mean to them? These are laymen. They're no formal training, at least at a seminary level. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

They've had college training, but they haven't had any formal training. And the one I wanted to start with was a husband and wife who are raising their granddaughter. She's now in first year of high school. 

Darrell Bock: 

Oh, wow. 

Elliott Johnson: 

She's in music and they're raising her because their daughter is incapable of doing it. And here's what he said. "I'm thankful for the preparation of the scrolls," the material that's been written. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

"They have guided me to be in God's word consistently, to correctly understand its meaning." Again, of guiding. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

Given them the meaning, "How my life should be lived as a result of truth. Above all," and I love this conclusion, "It has helped me to know God better." See, we're not here because we know more about the Bible because we supposedly know the Bible better. We want the ultimate goal to be a personal walk with the Lord. 

Darrell Bock: 

Exactly. 

Elliott Johnson: 

And that they are maturing spiritually, and that's our goal. And clearly, that's not involved with only seminary trained people. 

Darrell Bock: 

No, it's not a strictly academic exercise. 

Elliott Johnson: 

That's right. And it's one of the shared tasks that the church has with the seminary, really. And the type of study that most naturally relates to them is exposition, reading in a translation. We've got some great translations today, as an American culture at least. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, that's right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

And reading through books as a whole, and then allowing them to formulate ideas. Now, I don't think there's any problem with reading what someone else thinks it's saying. I love our pastor. He's a Bible reader. He's not a graduate from Dallas, but he reads the scripture and he leads in expositions of the scripture, and we disagree on points. This Sunday, we're going to be dealing with a passage in Second Peter, Three, where I don't know what he's going to say, but it may be different than what I… But I've learned one of the teachings that Paul gives in Ephesians Four is learning to walk in unity. How do we develop that unity? 

I'm the kind of guy that says, "If it's true, it doesn't matter if it's an important truth or less important. If it's true, it's true, and we've got to follow." And I still hold that conviction, but understanding truths differently doesn't necessarily make us enemies. Again, what Jesus said is, to his disciples, "What I want you to do is to love each other. If people can see that there's a love, they will appreciate that I have come and changed your behavior." So I'm learning to, but I really appreciate the fact that he's a Bible reader and has come to conclusions and is coming to conclusions from the scripture. So we can talk about the differences, but he does that. And then we… Well, I don't any longer, but one of the men at our church, one of the staff writes the scrolls. We'll meet Saturday and we'll discuss it. They have given this old man a chance to continue to contribute. 

If they've said it, and it's no better way to say it, let that rest. But if there is a way that some things haven't been considered, they give me a chance. And I try to say it in those terms, but not, again, as their elder, but as their equal. We're here to grow together. 

Darrell Bock: 

To serve each other. 

Elliott Johnson: 

That's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

To serve each other and to stimulate one another to love and good deeds. 

Elliott Johnson: 

Amen. 

Darrell Bock: 

And so yeah, ministry is an interesting game. And the ability to encourage one another in the study of scripture is an interesting game. I listened to what you're talking about happening in the local church. I'm very involved with BSF, with Bible Study Fellowship. 

Elliott Johnson: 

Okay. 

Darrell Bock: 

I actually proofread all their materials from year to year. And so I'm roaming around the Bible with them. I'm actually two years ahead of where my wife is when she meets in a Bible Study Fellowship group, but it's the same idea. It's, we're going to work through a book together. We're going to go passage by passage. We're looking to see what's happening with the Bible as a whole. And we're always asking the question, the "So what?" At the end. "What difference does this make for how I'm going to live?" 

And so the value of Bible exposition is important. There's a contrast that I want to paint, that I want to be sure we get in here that I'm afraid we've moved past. So let me go back and recover it, and that is the reason we're saying go book by book as opposed to say topically or studying characters or something like that, or even systematic theologically, is because that helps you to understand passages in their initial appropriate context. 

Elliott Johnson: 

That's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

And the danger of not doing that means that you'll tackle a topic and you actually won't use the passage with the sensitivity to how it's actually functioning. And it isn't to say that you shouldn't preach topically or you shouldn't preach by character or other ways to do it, but what we're saying is if you give people a basic knowledge of the actual structure and flow of the Bible itself and the way it presents itself, that can only help you deal with how to read the Bible when you're reading it in other ways. 

Elliott Johnson: 

Yeah. You see, I think what you're saying is tied together with what is verbal meaning? 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

That fundamental question, which our culture is really struggling with. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

And I would understand, and I go back to E.D. Hirsch, who was a professor of English literature- 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

And wrote about treating the literature consistently. He is the one that suggests the Bible along with literature, along with the Constitution, is trans-historical. It's intended by the creativity of the human author, but in the Bible, it's intended by God to have a continuing relevance and appropriateness in expressing the truth. 

Darrell Bock: 

So it's written with a specificity on the one hand, and yet with an openness on the other to recognize we're not singularly context-limited. We're not limited to 1776. 

Elliott Johnson: 

That's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

We're not limited to the original setting of Joel or Revelation, but that God is laying this out because he thought this material would be useful for a believer no matter when they lived. 

Elliott Johnson: 

That's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

And that challenge is the challenge of handling the scripture well, and then the backdrop for Bible Exposition is so when I appreciate the story, the way it is actually formulated and presented, when I get the whole of what's being said around particulars, I'm in a better place to understand how to see and apply the Bible, particularly in passages… This is something that I like to highlight, which is the Bible actually writes from a variety of perspectives sometimes. So I can have a passage. I almost hate to bring this up towards the end, but I have a passage like Romans 13 that tells me to be submissive to government, but I can also have a section of scripture from the prophets that's challenging what's happening around them by the leaders, that's doable. 

Elliott Johnson: 

That's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

And so being able to recognize, "Well, here's the angle that we're dealing with here. Here's the angle that we're dealing with over here." And then thinking canonically, "How do I put that together?" Then that moves you in a healthy way towards larger systematic theological conclusions and that kind of thing. 

Elliott Johnson: 

And even biblical conclusions. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

We had a Zoom meeting this morning. Guys were attending in Alaska to Israel. We had a large group of variety. We're studying Genesis. They wanted to study Genesis and we're studying Abraham, Abraham's faith and how Abraham's faith is developing by the promises God gave to Abraham. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yep. 

Elliott Johnson: 

Well, he hasn't given us the same promises, but he's treating us in the same pattern. So in Ephesians, where we have what God is doing in our day, we have Ephesians Two, Eight, Nine and 10, "For by grace, so you save through faith, not of yourselves. It's a gift of God." So the work that God did in Christ now becomes the promises entailed in it are the promises we have. We learn from Abraham's experience, but we can apply what God is doing in Christ to today's world. 

Darrell Bock: 

Now, I almost want to have fun with this because when I think about this, I think, yes, Abraham is the receiver of promises, but the promises that Abraham receives ultimately talk about blessing on the entire world. 

Elliott Johnson: 

That's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

Which then comes back at us again when we see what God does in the New Testament, and that message goes out to the entire world in a way in which the entire world is blessed. 

Elliott Johnson: 

Through his descendant. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's exactly right. Through the seed. So everything goes through a Christological window- 

Elliott Johnson: 

Amen. 

Darrell Bock: 

Which is why the Gospel is at the center of all this. And again, what that's highlighting is the point I was making earlier, which is there are angles that the Bible undertakes. And what I need to do is to understand this is the original setting and this is the angle of this text. Here's the same topic being looked at with other elements in the context to take into consideration. And now how do I wrestle with pulling those together so I have a whole and coherent story? 

Elliott Johnson: 

And I would say that's a biblical theology. 

Darrell Bock: 

Exactly. And so out of Bible Exposition, the beauty of this is your exegesis helps you build to your understanding of elements of the text. The Bible Exposition helps you wrestle with the question, here's what's happening in the book as a whole. You put all those together next to one another and wrestle with all the variations that introduces because of the various angles, et cetera. And now you're building towards a biblical theology. And as you build a solid biblical theology, you eventually hopefully get also to a solid deductive expression of that which becomes your systematic theology. And so you're building this huge edifice of biblical reflection of which Bible Exposition occupies such a central part, because it's always asking us, "How does this passage function in relationship to what's around it?" 

Elliott Johnson: 

Fair enough. And Dr. Chafer was the one who recognized the significance of that in his day. We have the opportunity to develop that significance in our day. 

Darrell Bock: 

And the challenge that has emerged, I think in the lifetime of the seminary is that when Chafer was doing this, at least in the American culture, that was the initial focus I think, of the school, there was a shared cultural understanding and underbelly, if I can say it that way, that was rooted in the Bible and in what some people will call Judeo-Christian values. Although some people like to challenge that phrase today, but I think it has value in this conversation. Whereas now, the context in which we're operating in for a lot of people, they do not have that underground structure. You talked about biblical literacy earlier- 

Elliott Johnson: 

Yes. 

Darrell Bock: 

And we don't share that as a culture anymore, and that results in a terrific challenge for how do I now handle the Bible in which the alternative ways of seeing the world have expanded immensely, in part, not just because of the changes within our own culture, but the way we are interconnected globally anyway? And so the challenge on a student today and what they can assume going out in ministry as they handle the Bible, that has become more of a challenge because there are more options out there from which people out in the streets are choosing to live their lives. 

Elliott Johnson: 

And that's certainly the case. It's a different world. Our scrolls attempt to address some of that issue that comes from biblical illiteracy. We're just not living in that environment any longer. It wasn't that the environment was perfect in Dr. Chafer's day. 

Darrell Bock: 

No, not at all. 

Elliott Johnson: 

But it was a biblical environment. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

Ours is not a biblical environment. 

Darrell Bock: 

There was a respect for biblical environment that generally doesn't exist and can't be assumed today. 

Elliott Johnson: 

That's correct. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's why I had my job. Well, Elliott, thank you so much for coming in. This has been fun to reconnect on this level. These conversations for us, go back to lunches that we used to have on a regular basis when he was telling me, "All right, how should I help evaluate the students that were in the class?" And I learned so much from you in this area. So it's just a real privilege for me to be able to have you in. 

Elliott Johnson: 

Thank you so much. Could I also add that if there's someone watching the video that would like to learn more about how we as a church are using Bible Exposition at the lay level, not at the preaching level- 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Elliott Johnson: 

But at the lay level, we'd love to be able to do that? And you can send me a text at [email protected]. 

Darrell Bock: 

There you go. 

Elliott Johnson: 

Even though I'm an old guy here, they've let me keep my email. So we'd love to make contact with you and get some of our staff to join me and coming and communicating and discussing it with you as an option that you might like to have. 

Darrell Bock: 

Oh, that's great. That's a wonderful offer. And my joke is that no one at Dallas Seminary knows the meaning of the word retire. So it sounds like you've been quite busy ever since. 

Elliott Johnson: 

Yeah. I'm even older than Biden. 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, thank you for joining us again. 

Elliott Johnson: 

You're certainly welcome. 

Darrell Bock: 

And we thank you, our listener, for being with us. And if you like our show, please leave some type of rating or review of your favorite podcast so that this helps people to discover us. We hope you'll join us again next time when we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of theology to everyday life. We thank you for being with us, and we hope you'll join us again soon. 

Elliott Johnson: 

Thank you.