Seeing God in the World Around Us

Book by Robert Peace: Holy Conversations: Talking About God in Everyday Life   

Books by Robert K. Johnston: God’s Wider Presence: Reconsidering General Revelation 

Reel Spirituality: Theology in Film and Dialogue (Engaging Culture)  Useless Beauty: Ecclesiastes Through the Lens of Contemporary Film 

Book by Catherine M. Barsotti & Robert K. Johnston:  Finding God In The Movies: 33 Films Of Reel Faith 

Book by Catherine M. Barsotti: God in the Movies: A Guide for Exploring Four Decades of Film 

Kymberli Cook: 
Welcome to The Table Podcast, where we discuss issues of God and culture. My name is Kymberli Cook and I'm the Assistant Director here at the Hendricks Center. Today. We're going to be talking about natural theology and we're joined by Rob Johnston, the Senior Professor of Theology and Culture at Fuller Seminary. Thank you so much for being here today, Rob. 

Robert K. Johnston: 
Happy to be here. Thanks. 

Kymberli Cook: 
So to get started, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you ended up in professional academic ministry? 

Robert K. Johnston: 
That's a long story, but I'll give you the short version. My father was a structural engineer, had a business in Los Angeles and I thought that's where I was called to be. That's where I thought my gifts were until after my freshman year at Stanford, my sister took me to see the movie Becket at a theater, and I heard God speak to me. I had been struggling with the fact that those in my church and in Young Life had been saying, "You seem to have gifts for ministry." I was aware that I had some public gifts, but I didn't want to be a minister if God didn't want me to be a minister. I thought that was a recipe for failure. 

Robert K. Johnston: 
And so I didn't think I was particularly bad, but I didn't think I was a saintly person. And my youth pastor and my Young Life leader were, in my opinion at that time, they were saying. But I saw the movie Becket, it's the story of Thomas Becket, who was the drinking buddy, best friend of King Henry, an awful king who warred and raped and pillaged and overtaxed. And the only person that opposed King Henry was the Archbishop of Canterbury who had a different direct line of authority. Only for the Archbishop to die, Henry had the brilliant idea that if he appointed his drinking buddy Archbishop, everything would be great, that he'd solved his problem. 

Robert K. Johnston: 
He appointed Thomas Archbishop only for Thomas to say, "If God has chosen me to serve him, I will serve God and not the king." And the king had him murdered six months later on the steps of the cathedral. I didn't want to be martyred or murdered, but I heard God say to me, as I watched that movie, "Rob, you don't have to be holy, you only to be obedient and I will help make you holy." The next morning, I went into engineering corner and checked out of engineering as a major and checked into history so I could learn how to read and write, knowing that I was going to seminary. 

Kymberli Cook: 
Oh, wow. What seminary did you go to? 

Robert K. Johnston: 
I went to Fuller Seminary. 

Kymberli Cook: 
You did. Okay. 

Robert K. Johnston: 
So yes. 

Kymberli Cook: 
Oh neat. Oh goodness, I'm sorry. I totally just got lost in my notes. I'm going to take a second. So today we're talking about natural theology. That's what we're hoping to chat about. And that seems to be something that is definitely around your world and your theological expertise. So first, if you don't mind, just for those people who are listening, can you give us definition or description? What is it? 

Robert K. Johnston: 
Sure. 

Kymberli Cook: 
What is natural theology? And then if you would just let us know, how did you get interested in it? Did it start with that movie? 

Robert K. Johnston: 
So I gave you an example of natural theology. I heard God speak to me, watching a movie. The caricature of natural theology is doing theology without God, somehow thinking you can produce God from the natural. And philosophers in the middle ages, thought that you could look at the beauty of the world, the creation and say there must be a creator. Or ethics had to have a ground. But natural theology as I would understand it, it's actually debated, there's 20 different definitions if you were to study, has to do with understanding how God reveals himself, not only through scripture, but also through creation and through conscience and through human creativity, that if this is God's world, if God's Spirit is still active, Jesus has said he sent his Spirit, then in fact, we should be able to know God in lots of ways beyond simply what we learn about God at church, though that might be fundamental. 

Kymberli Cook: 
Yeah. I read a article just yesterday about… I had obviously had this podcast in mind and I was reading an article about someone who was an unbeliever at this point in their life. And they were hiking through the mountains in Ireland or Scotland, I believe. And I actually wrote it down because it's so beautiful. He said, "I could feel some deep, old power rolling through it all, welding it together, flowing from the land into to me and back again." And he goes on later on to talk about how that experience along with some other things in his life eventually led him to the Lord. And I think that's an example of what you're talking about. There is something there. 

Robert K. Johnston: 
Yeah and the something there doesn't necessarily have to be a beautiful sunset. For another philosopher that you could read, she talks about it was while she was taking a shower. Balaam heard God speak while he was worshiping a false God. Abimelech heard God speak while he was dreaming at night. If this is God's world, we shouldn't be surprised that God would reveal himself through his Spirit in all kinds of ways. But certainly creation is a more typical way. And one that people perhaps have thought more about. 

Kymberli Cook: 
Mm-hmm (affirmative). So we did talk about creation, but with regard to humanity, I mean, you were talking about a movie that was created by people. So how do you see humanity playing a role in natural theology? Are we a part of the natural or are we distinct from it? 

Robert K. Johnston: 
No. Natural theology you could say has everything to do with the world. So it's people, their creativity, and their conscience. It's creation. It's the whole bottle of wax if in fact this is God's world. And I think Christians all the way from forever, from the beginning have said wherever truth, beauty and goodness are, there God is present. So if in fact wherever truth, beauty, and goodness is, God is present, then natural theology has to do with trying to understand what God is saying or doing and integrating that in our lives. Sometimes I use the analogy, I know my wife very well, not surprising. I'm intimate with her, but that doesn't mean I don't also want to know what her 11th grade tennis coach thought about her when she was playing tennis. And in fact, when I know that I know something more about her, that helps my present relationship. 

Robert K. Johnston: 
So that in a relationship you want to know all facets of the other who you love. It's exactly that with God. It's not that Jesus isn't primary, surely Jesus is primary. It isn't the God hasn't revealed himself through his word. He has revealed himself through his word, but God has revealed himself in all kinds of ways. And that we, as Christians have often made the mistake of saying, "Oh, that's not important. All we need to worry about or concentrate on is what the Bible says." Well, think about your relationships with others. If all you're going to worry about is one facet of it. Well, that's good, but better would be to be open to receiving all that that other has for you through all kinds of ways. And that's what natural theology is attempting to do at its best. At its worst it's trying to dismiss supernatural revelation. That's not what we're talking about here, nor is it necessary for your definition of natural theology. 

Kymberli Cook: 
So let's go back to something you just said. You're referencing people who might want to focus solely on the Bible and which is admirable. It is definitely a source of God's self-disclosure, of his revelation. And it is what we need for equipping and for understanding salvation, that's what it says about itself. So if somebody were to be listening to us and to think, well, this just isn't really all that helpful. I just want to understand, I just want to obey the Bible and that's probably really all that I need to know. So one response you're saying is about this relational dimension. If you really are seeking the Lord and loving him and wanting a relationship with him, then you will at minimum appreciate, hopefully the varieties of ways in which he has… I mean, again, disclosed himself. 

Robert K. Johnston: 
He's spoken. 

Kymberli Cook: 
Yeah. He's spoken and revealed himself. What are some other responses that you might have to people who would have this concern that this really isn't… It's not helpful, or like you said, at worst, it minimizes scripture and elevates nature itself, or nature being the natural world- 

Robert K. Johnston: 
Sure. 

Kymberli Cook: 
Like you said. 

Robert K. Johnston: 
Maybe two responses. The first one is that the Bible itself says that's what we should do, or illustrates that's what we should do. So Psalm 19, which most of your listeners probably know, talks about the wonder of God's speechless speech. And then it talks about the wonder of the law of God's word, that it's beautiful and so on. And it ends by combining them and saying, "Let the words of my mouth and the murmurings of my heart…" Referring to those two aspects of how we get revelation, "Be acceptable to you, my rock and my redeemer." And most scholars will say those were two Psalms that were put together, two different ways of experiencing God's revelation. Two different ways of hearing God that were combined because they both are hearing God and that as we hear God, we should respond with words and with murmurings of the heart that are appropriate and acceptable and in keeping with what we've heard. 

Robert K. Johnston: 
We could talk about another scriptures, I'm fascinated with Proverbs. Proverbs 30… Most of the Proverbs are collections of Solomon. But as you know, the Proverbs actually in their text, say, "These are the words of Hezekiah." Or, "These are the words of Solomon. Or, but in Proverbs 30, it says, "These are the words of Augur." Augur is not a Hebrew, it's somebody from outside the believing community. And there are 15, 16 verses that are considered inspired by God. They are so filled with the Spirit that they're actually scripture on par with Moses or Paul. And this was written by somebody "outside of the church" to use a colloquial expression. Or again, Proverbs 31 says, "These are the words of King Lemuel as told by his mother." Well, we know all the kings of Israel and Judah and Lemuel is not one of them. So that again, even within our Bible, we have examples of hearing God from beyond the church, beyond what we would say is the Torah or the law. That would be one. 

Robert K. Johnston: 
A second, I remember going to First Baptist Church in Dallas some years ago when Mrs. Criswell was teaching her Sunday school class, the Sunday school class was centered in and all about the Bible. But in fact, everybody sat there and took notes as to how you could understand how Daniel connected with Revelation, connected with Matthew and so on. That all of us, even those in Bible churches understand the importance of the church and our tradition in helping us understand God. So we not only have Bible, but we have church. That's not to say the church is on par with Bible. No, the Bible is our norming norm. It's our authority, but we understand the Bible in a context of other Christians who help and teach us. But we also know if we lived in 1850 and went to church that we thought the Bible said that slavery was okay and we preached it and we were sincere. 

Robert K. Johnston: 
And that's what our church said was what the Bible also said. So we needed something at times beyond that. I mean we needed correction by people whose conscience had been seared by what was wrong and who were trying to help us rethink what basically was sub-biblical was wrong. And so we need also the wisdom that comes from our conscience, from our sciences, from our creativity. I learned it from the arts. I thought I wasn't good enough to be a minister. I heard God say to me, "You just have to be obedient. I'll help you be good enough." So there's both a theological method reason. If we're only with the Bible, we limit ourselves in going deep in what might be, how to understand it and limit ourselves in terms of how we maybe at times think the wrong things. And we also limit ourselves in terms of what the Bible itself also teaches or preaches. 

Kymberli Cook: 
Yeah. When you were talking about what the Bible itself tells us to do, like you were saying, it tells us to look beyond, and it gives us examples of which you gave us some fantastic ones, but even also in Proverbs, it says, "You learn wisdom from the ant. Go to the ant, oh sluggard." And in Psalm 19, like you were just in, "The heavens declare the glory of God." And we're learning theological truths about the glory of God from the heavens themselves. And I mean, those are both nature examples, but yeah, the Bible itself, especially if you are a person who cherishes scripture and wants to do right by it and comes from a tradition that takes it very seriously as the evangelical tradition and when it's done best, it does. Then if you are one of those people, then it's actually incumbent upon you to really listen to what the Bible says and to see that it is broader than what sometimes especially our evangelical tradition has highlighted. So- 

Robert K. Johnston: 
Yeah- 

Kymberli Cook: 
You mentioned… Oh, sorry, go ahead. 

Robert K. Johnston: 
I was just going to say one of the shocking ones to me was I was reading in Chronicles, oh, 10 years ago. We don't often read Chronicles. And it's the story of Josiah, who's a wonderful king. Cleansed the temple, re-instituted reading the Torah yearly. Re-instituted the Passover, 30 years of discipleship. And there's the story of his death where King Necho, Pharaoh Necho, worships a false god in Egypt comes and says to him, "Let me and my army through, we're going to Assyria to fight." And Josiah believes that… Oh, and King Necho says, "God has told me to tell you to let me through." And Josiah thinks, "Who are you to tell me what God is saying?" You worship a false God. And so he girds for battle, goes out, tries to fight Necho, And he shot in the heart with an arrow and killed. 

Robert K. Johnston: 
And the text says, Second Chronicles 30:24 I think, the text says, "Because Josiah did not listen to the voice of God through King Necho." I mean it doesn't even give you an option of another interpretation. And when I read that, I thought, "Whoa!” I'm willing to say, “God might be in the sunset,” but am I willing to say, “God might be in the words of a king who worships a foreign god?" That's a much more radical idea, but that's what the Bible says. 

Kymberli Cook: 
Mm-hmm (affirmative). So- 

Robert K. Johnston: 
It flat out is there in eight words. 

Kymberli Cook: 
Yeah. 

Robert K. Johnston: 
It doesn't allow for other interpretations. 

Kymberli Cook: 
So to play devil's advocate- 

Robert K. Johnston: 
Sure. 

Kymberli Cook: 
I can completely get behind what you're saying, that's what scripture says. So it allows us to interpret that situation and the words of Pharaoh Necho in that way. For people who might be listening and thinking… Well and for those who do know a bit about the ancient world those kind of I guess like theological power plays were often used and claimed that they were there to release them or to free them. And their God had sent this foreign king and the foreign king was claiming to be there and a part of that. And so those kinds of things, obviously, I'm not saying that's what was going on in the Chronicles passage. But how do we, if we don't have the luxury of scripture commenting, having a little caption under our life, like this was God speaking- 

Robert K. Johnston: 
It's a good question. 

Kymberli Cook: 
How do we do that? Because again, if you are taking the Bible seriously and you're taking God's self revelation, seriously, then how do we figure out- 

Robert K. Johnston: 
Sure. 

Kymberli Cook: 
What is God speaking and what is not, because it's not written in a book that I've said I believe is God's revelation. 

Robert K. Johnston: 
Sure. It's the question of discernment. That question of discernment is also true, as we know, in terms of how we read the words of scripture, that we know a lot of people, and we know of other sects or religious traditions that have gone astray who have read those words sincerely and wrongly so that we have scripture as our final authority, absolutely. Well we have Jesus as our final authority, but we understand Jesus through scripture, we need the church. We need the tradition of Christians. We need Christians in India and Africa, as well as in Texas to help us understand that text. Because somebody with a very different life experience is actually going to hear things that are in the text, but which we gloss over because we're not sensitive to those issues at that point, we need to take seriously our own experience. 

Robert K. Johnston: 
One of the things we've learned over the last 50 years, I'm not a Pentecostal, but the Pentecostal and charismatic movement I think has helped the whole church to recognize that the Spirit still speaks in and through people today. That there are… My grandmother was sensitive to the Spirit in ways that were simply godly and helpful as I grew up and matured. 

Robert K. Johnston: 
So we need to listen to our experience or our stories as well as the stories of others. So we have a combination of resource to help us discern in the context of the authority of scripture. And without that we risk baptizing our interpretation of that authority and confusing that with the authority itself. 

Kymberli Cook: 
Well, and I was going to say, perhaps it's even also, it's an interpretation issue with both. Both interpreting what's going on in the world and in the natural world, as well as what's going on in scripture. 

Robert K. Johnston: 
And if you know the word hermeneutics, which at Dallas Seminary is used widely, and at Fuller Seminary, but is not a word that's in your common vocabulary. It's probably not at your table Sunday or Tuesday night for most people, but that comes from Hermes. Hermes was the messenger of the gods. So hermeneutics is the study of the method by which you know what God is saying. And that's the question you're asking. And there are shelves full of books, literally at Dallas Seminary, helping us to try to understand what that means. 

Kymberli Cook: 
So we've been looking at this a little bit from the perspective of the believer and somebody who's very serious about scripture, but let's take a step around to the other side of the conversation and maybe look at it from the natural world perspective and the fallen, unbelieving world, specifically how might natural theology, this conversation and overall the things we're talking about, how might that be a bridge for Christians who are trying to speak into the public space? And right now, especially it's so hard to be taken seriously or to be heard in a way that's winsome. And some of that is our fault. And some of that is just the fallen world we live in. To me, it seems like this could be a bridge. How do you see that? And if you do see that, in what ways could people use it or start thinking through it in an apologetic sense? 

Robert K. Johnston: 
Yeah, it's a wonderful question. And it's at the core of why I teach in a seminary and what I've done for 40 years. How can the gospel, which is good news, be heard as good news by most of my unbelieving friends who don't want to go to church? And at least one brief response is if I'm not willing to listen to their stories, why should they be interested in listening to my story? That if I reject and dismiss those meaningful encounters, those speechless speeches to use Psalm 19, that have produced humility and awe, and most people have those, not too many. But haven't taught this area for a long time, if I ask people to talk about even a movie that they have seen that was a spiritual experience, almost everybody can identify something that at least metaphorically made them cry, that touched their inner being, and that had them leave the theater a slightly different person. 

Robert K. Johnston: 
And yet we tend to say, "well, we know Jesus, therefore all that other stuff isn't important." Rather than take Acts 17, take Paul at Athens. Some people criticize Paul, I mean some major theologians saying, "Man, he was too soft on them. If he'd preached a good old biblical sermon like Peter did, he would have had several thousand become Christians. He only had a handful." The text in nowhere says we should be criticizing him. You'll look in vain for that. Paul says to them, "Good for you people of Athens, you were highly religious." Now he quickly goes on and says, "Let me tell you about that, Jesus and it's not in idolatry." But he recognizes that some of that conscience, maybe some of that fear, some of that sense that, well, we maybe don't… There's something more that we're not getting at. The Spirit, speaking to them, the Spirit making their heart uncomfortable. 

Robert K. Johnston: 
Rather than dismissing that, Paul says "Good for you, let's begin with that. Now I can tell you more about that." And he moved to talk about Jesus and the resurrection. But there was a taking seriously. It would be awful if you said no, no, Paul didn't mean that he was just pulling their leg. He actually thought it was awful 

Kymberli Cook: 
Or stroking their ego. Yeah. 

Robert K. Johnston: 
Yeah. I mean, that's beneath him. That's not what a Christian communicator does. So Paul was actually trying to hear them and heard their longing for something more that had come even in their false worship. And he built on that to tell them about Jesus. Now it isn't just false worship. It can be what you read in terms of seeing nature, or it can be the birth of your child, or it can be taking a shower. I mean, in our chaotic world, taking a shower sometimes is the best 10 minutes that we have. And that calm that piece was at least for Janet Solstice an overpowering experience of the goodness of God, and she was an atheist at the time. 

Kymberli Cook: 
Yes. I think that sometimes when… This is a good example of another place where the church's tendency in the last few hundred years at least, to separate the secular and the sacred really does a disservice to our faith, does a disservice to the worship of the Lord because we say, "Well we overhear as Christians are doing good, holy things and God is here, but he's not over here." And that's just not the case. And like we've even talked about in the scripture, scripture demonstrates that's not the case. 

Kymberli Cook: 
So just to wrap up for somebody who might be wanting to dig a little bit deeper into this conversation and into this concept, you have a book that you wrote a while back called God's Wider Presence that does a good job of talking about this and bringing up some of these issues. Are there any other resources that you would suggest that might be fairly accessible for someone who isn't looking to read a theological tome? 

Robert K. Johnston: 
Yeah, but I didn't know you were going to ask that and I'm not very good at [crosstalk]. 

Kymberli Cook: 
I'm sorry. 

Robert K. Johnston: 
There's a book by Richard Peace, P-E-A-C-E, that's written for lay people. That's something… He has 15 or 20 books, but something about the spirituality of everyday life. 

Kymberli Cook: 
Okay. 

Robert K. Johnston: 
Something like that's going to be in the title, not… But that idea. And he does a nice job. He's an evangelical who was asked by one of the more main line or more liberal churches to write something that would be evangelistic. And so he chose to write a book on how we might experience God in the ordinary, which would be that step one in what was an evangelistic strategy or endeavor as you shared with others. And I've found, it's very basic, but really it makes you think, "Oh, what about that? Is that when I had those experiences or that part of my life, is that also relevant with regard to God?" So I would say that would be a good… It could be, and here I'm tooting my own thing. So don't… Take that for what it is. 

Kymberli Cook: 
It's a good book. It's the reason I reached out to you for the podcast. 

Robert K. Johnston: 
If you went online to Reelspirituality.org. So R-E-E-L spirituality.org, there would be a number of movie reviews and discussions where students and other teachers and ministers have reflected on various films that have a spiritual depth. Or my wife and I have a couple books, God in the Movies, and Finding God in the Movies. And so that's only one way. 

Kymberli Cook: 
Yeah, but it is one, mm-hmm. 

Robert K. Johnston: 
It is a way that many of us can relate to. Now some of us have only looked at a movie as a escape, we only want to not think, and that's fine, but any good story is trying to scratch at true through beauty or good, it's trying to say something, it has a vision of what is, and it's inviting then, us to think about that and to comment, that's a novel. I mean, it doesn't have to be a movie. It could be a poem, or it could be a fiction book. I've found those as particularly helpful ways of trying to go deeper. 

Kymberli Cook: 
Well, our time is up. It just seems like it flew by, Rob, but just to summarize for everybody listening. So natural theology is basically the conversation about how God reveals himself in the natural world and that theological conversation surrounding that. 

Robert K. Johnston: 
Through the Spirit. 

Kymberli Cook: 
Through the Spirit, fair enough, yes. 

Robert K. Johnston: 
How God reveals- 

Kymberli Cook: 
Yes, thank you. 

Robert K. Johnston: 
Yes. 

Kymberli Cook: 
Through the Spirit. I love it. And it's important for us to talk about those things and to really consider these things, because we cherish our relationship with the Lord. And if he's revealed himself in these ways, then we want to hear from him as well as scripture itself points us to things broader than just scripture, as far as seeing how God has revealed himself and what he has disclosed about himself. And it also allows us to, as we've just been discussing, better engage with our world, because we are able to show those outside the faith that we value their world. We value their stories and we value even down to the material, things that they create such as art, or even, Wheaties and food that all of these things show us dimensions of God, if even just his Providence and his provision. 

Robert K. Johnston: 
Yes, you'd get an A for the class if you were- 

Kymberli Cook: 
Oh, well thank you. I was able to make it through. So Rob, thank you so much. It's just been a pleasure speaking with you. And again, if you are interested in this, be sure to check out his book, God's Wider Presence, it's been out for quite a while, so you should be able to find it without any problem. And just we really appreciate you being here. 

Robert K. Johnston: 
Thank you, Kymberli, it's been great to chat with you. 

Kymberli Cook: 
Great. And thank you for listening. Please do subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app, and or leave us an honest review. It really does help other people discover these conversations. And we hope that you'll join us next time on The Table, where we discuss issues of God and culture.