600th Episode: Our Story

Josh Winn: 

Welcome to the Table Podcast where we discuss issues of God and culture to demonstrate the relevance of theology and everyday life. My name is Josh Winn. I'm the Vice President for Communications and Community here at Dallas Theological Seminary, and I'm your guest host for this episode of The Table, and I'm here with the other hosts of The Table, the many hosts of the table. We're going to get to that here in a minute because this is a unique aspect to the table in that we have different hosts for different episodes. 

But I want to welcome each one of you, and just to orient our audience to who you are, would you introduce yourselves? What you do for The Table and The Hendricks Center? Then, how long you've been involved in this particular podcast? One of the reasons why we are celebrating The Table with this special episode is that we are reflecting on our 600th episode, and it's so exciting to think about all the ways that you have led conversations that are impacting people in everyday lives. Bill, let's start with you. We'll work our way around the table and then we'll get started and just having a conversation. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Thanks Josh, and good to have you with us today. I'm Bill Hendricks. I'm the Executive Director for Christian Leadership at The Hendricks Center. I've been involved with The Table podcast, gosh, about seven years, eight years. I think I started a couple of years after I came into this role. 

Kasey Olander: 

I'm Kasey Olander. I'm the Web Content Specialist at the Hendricks Center. I got involved with the podcast when I first started at the Hendricks Center probably three or four years ago, but then didn't get started hosting until just one or two years ago, so it's been an honor. 

Kymberli Cook: 

I'm Kymberli Cook. I am the Assistant Director at the Hendricks Center. I got sweaty palms when you asked how long I've been associated with the podcast because I don't remember. I think it's four years, something like that. Sorry, I don't remember. 

Josh Winn: 

It feels much longer than that. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Maybe five? 

Josh Winn: 

In a good way. In a good way. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Thanks Josh. It's gone on forever. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

I'm Melissa Pipkin. I have been affiliated with the podcast starting out as an intern with the Hendricks Center, and have been actually co-hosting along with these fine folks for about a year now. I'm just learning a lot from them and just enjoying the journey. I'm a fellow at the Hendricks Center, which is unique to the rest of them because they're actually staff and I'm like just a very blessed person to be out here and being able to utilize my talents and gifting in Christ. 

Darrell Bock: 

I'm Darrell Bach, Executive Director for Cultural Engagement at the Hendricks Center. I'm also Senior Research Professor for New Testament at the seminary. We've been doing the table now for, it was a year in planning, so 13 years total, 12 years in execution, and we have done 377 hours of material, which I told Kasey earlier today is three seminary degrees. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Incredible. 

Josh Winn: 

Okay. One of our goals during our time is to orient maybe new listeners to The Table, and I actually wanted to start with the name of the podcast, The Table. Darrell, I'm pitching this one to you because you go all the way back to the beginning of The Table podcast, and there's a philosophy that it seems to be represented by the name of The Table and what you're trying to accomplish here. Can you elaborate on that a little bit? 

Darrell Bock: 

It took Mark Bailey and I almost a year. 

Josh Winn: 

Who's Mark Bailey? 

Darrell Bock: 

Mark Bailey, former President now Chancellor at Dallas Theological Seminary. Took us almost a year to determine the name of what we we're going to call the podcast. We had been doing podcasts randomly ever since the iPod came out, and this was a decision to make it more systematic and to have a plan and a purpose to what we were doing on a regular basis. We spent a long time on the name because we wanted to give a certain feel to what it was that we were doing. We wanted people to feel like they were walking into a conversation at The Table, at the family table or among friends that was worth overhearing. That's actually what generated the name, was to create that sense and ethos about what it was that we were doing, even though we were talking about controversial in some cases and a wide variety of things to have it be worth listening to. 

Josh Winn: 

I want to ask, because each of you have, obviously, you're hosts of the table. What are some of the challenges you've faced, even as you've hosted, in light of the vision that Darrell was just talking about? This idea of bringing people around a table to discuss topics that are, they're not just relevant, but sometimes they're difficult. Boy, talk about a real challenge in today's age. How do you discuss and talk about things that are difficult but in a way that's constructive and edifying? Is there a particular episode or topic where you said, "Man, this really was apparent to me of the challenge, but it worked out quite well"? 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, there's any number of themes you could pick, Josh. We've done, how many podcasts did we say that we've done on the homosexuality? 

Kasey Olander: 

32. 

Bill Hendricks: 

32. Then, the whole race and racial reconciliation conversations, we've talked about that. But the way we do The Table, we want to model what it looks like to have difficult conversations, which means you put issues out on the table with real honesty, and of course, you bring truth and research to back up what you say, but oftentimes, we may disagree with the guests or the guests may disagree with us or sometimes we have more than one guest and they disagree with each other. That's fine. What we want to demonstrate and show so that people hear this is the tone with which Christians ought to be having those kinds of conversations. That's again, links back to The Table that you come to a table often to eat, which itself is kind of a unifying thing, but also you come to the table to talk, not shout, not dominate, not power up, but to listen. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Bill, I'm just going to say just right quick, our theme for Dallas Theological Seminary, of course, this year we're celebrating a century of teaching truth and loving well. I think what happens here at The Table, whenever we're having discussions with our guests, is we realize that we can teach truth, we can talk about truth, and sometimes everybody's truth. It has to line up with what God is saying at the end of the day, but we can do it with love. We can love well through the process, and I think that's what you're going to see when you see us at The Table. 

Kymberli Cook: 

I think one of the things that I've at least become quite passionate about in the podcast that I host, and everybody does this, because it's a part of our method, is to do our absolute best to love well by best representing as many voices as we can in the conversation and trying to give a sense of validity to that voice and saying, "Hey, there's a reason somebody is taking this perspective." We want to actually try to understand if that voice isn't here at the table right now, I as a host am going to do my best to represent that and treat it fairly, and we're also going to try to treat everybody else fairly that is at the table and really respecting what it is where they're coming from. 

Josh Winn: 

Can you speak to the, we were just talking before about the change in or the modification in the tagline to The Table podcast. It used to be issues of God and culture and now you're expanding it a bit issues of God and culture to demonstrate the relevance of theology in everyday life. Can you talk about how that connects to the mission of the Hendricks Center in which The Table podcast lives? The mission there is to. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Shape compassionate, courageous leaders. 

Josh Winn: 

To shape compassionate, courageous leaders. Can you speak to that connection there? Because what I hear you saying, and really each of you is, when we come to this particular podcast and we have guests in, we're not just trying to dispense information, we're trying in the actual process itself to model what we're hoping others will then go out and mimic and exemplify. It seems to me that there's a close connection between what The Table's about and then the Hendricks Center. 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, we always are deeply committed to two ideas, one that the truth matters, and secondly, how you treat people matters. I actually think it's an extension of the great commandment. You love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and you love your neighbors yourself, and that extends even what makes Christianity distinct is that's true even of people who are opposed to you. You're supposed to love your enemies. 

How do you do that well? Well, the first way you do it in the context that we're operating in is, I need to understand where the other person is coming from. I need to work to understand where they're coming from, where they are, et cetera, and to actually let them speak to why it is they believe what they believe. Then, I move into assessment. I'm actually in a better place to assess and to engage if I really understand directly and honestly from the person why they are holding to what they hold. 

Sometimes what you find is, they share a value with you, they apply it differently. That's what we're searching for. We're searching for what drives a person to go in this direction, what might be worth a great conversation. The second feature that's important is we're an educational institution. Most people think, well, we teach facts in four walls. Okay, so I think of Dragnet, I'm sorry for the old illustration, but just the facts, ma'am, just the facts. Theology is actually supposed to be applied. It's supposed to impact your life, it's supposed to impact your life wherever God is. Now, think about that. God's everywhere. God's everywhere all the time. God's wherever we are doing with us, wherever we are, guiding and leading us supposedly. What does that look like in everyday life? We're trying to make sure that bridge is never broken. 

Josh Winn: 

Any other comments? 

Milyce Pipkin: 

I think the podcast does that in that you can see in how we open up in our opening and everything we do is to engage the culture and to show the culture, which can be very worldly that God is in all of this, as Dr. Bach just said. It's in his works and our glory that we see around us. It's in our worship and it's in his word. We just work, I think, to make sure that people can see that not only are we talking about these issues that can sometimes be controversial as we've mentioned, but that God is in the center of all of this at the end of the day, and that's what we want to leave them with no matter what. 

Kasey Olander: 

Right. It helps eliminate the sacred secular divide of like, "Okay, I have my church life over here, and then there's this other secular stuff,” but we're helping people go from life to the Bible, as Darrell's always talking about. 

Josh Winn: 

What surprised you about this journey? We're talking about 11 years of production, 13 years of planning and production, over 600 episodes. What surprised you about how The Table has been received as we've talked with our listeners? What has stood out to you from when you began to where we are now? 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, one thing that surprised me, frankly, is that our podcast is finding listeners not simply in the United States, but now increasingly globally. I'm excited about that, but it says to me that we're addressing not just Western issues but human issues, that as humans engage life, whatever culture they're a part of, they have to deal with the human condition. They ask questions that everyday people here are asking, because they're everyday people there, but they're finding some people that are actually talking about those issues but doing it from a biblical worldview. 

Kasey Olander: 

I've been encouraged. I actually got a text from a listener the other day who said, "Oh, I was listening to Cultivating Love for God's Word," the episode with Jen Wilkin, and she said that she's a podcaster too, and she was just thinking about how she could apply some of what she's hearing to her own podcast, how she could help people to own their faith, their Bible literacy, and so I've been pleasantly surprised and really encouraged that people are applying, not just overhearing a conversation, but actually thinking through what it might look like to apply some of these things in their own lives. 

Darrell Bock: 

I'm overseas almost the entire summer. I walk in and speak inevitably where I speak, someone comes up and says, "Hey, I've watched you on The Table." Or they'll say something really cute like, "I feel like I know you," because they've seen me on the screen, so I tell, "Yeah, they let me out of the screen. I'm actually a physical person." Then, the array of topics that people bring up when I, because I usually will follow up, "What issue did you hear?" or whatever. It's the whole smattering of the array of things that we discuss. It's clear that we're drawing attention to people who really want to sit down and think about, we go 45 minutes on purpose because we want to have time to discuss what we're pursuing. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

I'm going to throw a ringer in all of this. I actually almost got a job from somebody watching The Table podcast. My background is I'm a former anchor and reporter, and I have my own television talk show for 30 years on the public broadcasting system, and so in the secular life, I come with a lot of experience from that arena. But at the end of the day, I almost got a job from someone who knew me from the secular world as a news anchor, and they saw me on the podcast and they contacted me. I didn't get the job, and even if I had, I probably wouldn't have taken it because I would've thought that they were trying to get rid of me. 

Anyway, I just wanted to add a little humor, but that is an actual thing that happened. I guess I'm most encouraged when I see what we're doing not only helps, as Bill said, the reach, the global reach, but even in our classrooms that we're able to get students to use the podcast as they're working their way through some things theologically. When you have a New Testament scholar like Dr. Bock and a pastoral person like Bill, and then you have a millennial feeding into this thing, and then even the pastor's wife, you're coming from so many different perspectives with a theological view as your base, the Bible, the word of God, so it's really good. 

Josh Winn: 

Is the variety of your listening base and the variety of the topics you cover, is that one of the reasons why you have so many different hosts? I'm throwing this out there, you can say, "No, Josh, that's not why." One of the things I've appreciated is in that variety, you get a slice of a perspective, in the hosting and in that conversation. Then, as you step back and start to look at the vast array of episodes and it becomes a mosaic where you see a lot of different angles and perspectives represented. Is that one of the reasons why you have five hosts? 

Darrell Bock: 

One of the things that we're trying to demonstrate is the value and depth of the body. That the body has a variety of people with a variety of gifts who bring a variety of skills and a variety of helpful Biblical perspectives to thinking about things. Our goal was we wanted to be sure we didn't create a podcast that had a celebrity feel to it where there was just one host. We're going against everything that broadcasting tells you to do in- 

Josh Winn: 

That's why I asked, because it's very unusual to have this number of- 

Darrell Bock: 

And to get that variety of voices means that also you get that variety of perspectives. Well, one of the things that's challenging for the church is that it tends to approach issues oftentimes from one perspective only and doesn't have that variety and we need that variety. God designed the body for a reason. We're trying to reflect that in even the way we do the hosting and the various angles, and what's happened is that each of us have kind of developed our own interests in terms of what we want to pursue on the podcast, and that's created categories that we tend to operate in as a result. That's done. There are certain things I could never be a host for that these people are wonderfully qualified to host, so I think it's added to the depth of what we do. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

That's a compliment coming from Dr. Bock. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Well, there are multiple chairs around The Table for a reason, and it recognizes the validity and dignity of each one of those people. One of the things I love about the podcast is the diversity that we try to provide as far as the voices, because it demonstrates that … everybody is a theologian as we all have heard many times, but that everybody is able to participate in these kinds of conversations and to do so thoughtfully and to do so with a voice that contributes something that everybody needs to hear. 

Josh Winn: 

When Darrell says that each of you have developed interests, what are the interests that have developed? I'm curious. In no particular order. 

Kasey Olander: 

This is going to- 

Darrell Bock: 

I just set you up. I just set you up. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

You go off the rails. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's right. 

Josh Winn: 

But you all have to answer. This is what I want to hear. Yeah, what are some? 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, I think you get into, to some extent, gifting and also life messages. For me, giftedness and mentoring, and therefore discipleship and spiritual formation and leadership, because I am executive director for Christian leadership. You could also add in a whole category on grief, because I've experienced that in my life. Those are some core things that then you build off of. I've done a podcast with a scholar on epistemology. 

Kasey Olander: 

I knew you were going to say that one. 

Darrell Bock: 

That was your favorite podcast, wasn't it? What in the world is she saying to me? 

Bill Hendricks: 

She was a lovely guest. I felt very honored, but I was way out of my depth, but somehow it came off. 

Kasey Olander: 

For me, my background is in campus ministry, so college ministry and ministering to young people, discipleship and evangelism are some of my interests. Then also, psychology and counseling trauma, that kind of thing. That may sound strange to, I don't know if I should say, enjoy trauma, but it is something I found really interesting. 

Josh Winn: 

I think you actually say that on the trauma podcast. You're like, "I need to be careful how I say this." 

Kymberli Cook: 

Just to brag on Kasey a little bit, you would be hard-pressed to find somebody who has actually presented the gospel to more people than this young lady right here. 

Josh Winn: 

Fantastic. 

Kymberli Cook: 

She has a lot to say. So if you're listening and when you hear things from Kasey, listen up because she knows what she's talking about. 

Josh Winn: 

Fantastic. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Mine is theology. Actual systematic theological conversations and topics I very much enjoy. I am a pastor's wife, and so I've gotten, I don't know if thrown is too negative of a term. 

Darrell Bock: 

That sound that you're hearing it to the bus coming, go ahead. 

Kymberli Cook: 

I've gotten. 

Josh Winn: 

It's another type of breeze. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's right. 

Kymberli Cook: 

I have been presented the opportunities to do many women's topics. There's one other one. Oh, yeah. They jokingly call me the angel of death, because I have kind of developed a passion. 

Josh Winn: 

Angel of- 

Kymberli Cook: 

I know, right? I've developed a passion for talking about some of the, I don't know, more cryptic, more difficult topics around scary things in life that we all experience, that we all think about, and we don't actually, especially in the church, we don't actually talk about the fact that we think about them. The scripture has a lot to say about it, and there are scholars out there who have thought about it, and so I have a variety of podcasts on those topics. 

Kasey Olander: 

Those are some of our most popular ones, so we always appreciate your courage. 

Kymberli Cook: 

We're thinking about it. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

My thing is I'm the biggest sinner of the group. Not that I'm sinning now, but my background is a story of God's redemptiveness in your life. 

Josh Winn: 

Praise God. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

I have come from a mighty long way of running from the Lord to running to him like never before. A lot of my podcasts, or that I will do here that you will see is just, I love to tell those redemptive stories of what God can do with the mess turning it into a miracle if you just give it to him. I can speak to women, I can speak to trauma having lived a lot of it and just being a survivor, not a victim. You'll see those kinds of podcasts come out of me. I just love to just get to the heart of the matter, the root of the matter, and just let people see how God can just turn it all around. The turnaround agenda is possible through Christ who strengthens us. Those are my stories. That's what I love. 

Josh Winn: 

Fantastic. 

Darrell Bock: 

Then, I think my role, other than to be a New Testament person who believes in Biblical passages, Kym and I go back and forth on theology versus Biblical passages all the time even though they actually do work together, but we have fun with that little contrast is public theology. I actually don't think we have a theology of cultural engagement. We need one as a church, especially as we function in a pluralistic environment. A lot of what we're doing on The Table is designed to really zero in on, what does it mean to be the church in a pluralistic environment? How do we represent God well in the midst of that even as we, in some cases, find ourselves in conflict with what's going on around us. How do you balance the challenge that's in the gospel with the invitation that's in the gospel? I tell people, if you never get to the invitation, all you do is challenge people. You haven't shared the gospel because the gospel means good news. 

Josh Winn: 

Well said. 

Bill Hendricks: 

I got to throw in one more huge topic that we spend a lot of time on, which are integration of faith and work. Kasey mentioned the sacred-secular divide that for most people, they live one way on Sunday when it's almost like their faith is a hobby. Then we go back to work on Monday and basically, we're secularists, we leave God at home. We're trying to press through that and help people, again, the relevance of theology for everyday life. Where's God when it comes time to hire people? Where's God when it comes time to cast vision? Where's God when it comes time to set a budget? All those kinds of issues. 

Josh Winn: 

What strikes me is when I hear about all of these interests, it really does fit well, again, back to the mission of the Hendricks Center of shaping compassionate, courageous leaders. Because in the ethos of The Table podcast, with that particular vision, to have leaders that can engage culture, engage in specific areas of leadership, but do so in a way that may be countercultural, it may be difficult, but it's also laced with compassion. It's really neat to see how The Table podcast functions within the mission of the Hendricks Center, because the Hendricks Center has a whole bunch of other resources that tap into some of the things you've already talked about, but The Table is almost this variety clearing ground to really surface and stir up some really great discussions on topics that need to be discussed. 

Darrell Bock: 

And apply. If you think through the history of the center itself, which started off by being focused on the character of the leader, the kind of organization that he or she might lead, those kinds of questions. When the center was founded in the 80s, that was really the focus. Then, what happened is the culture shifted in a momentous way. I tell people the culture that I was born is not the culture I'm living in now, it's not even close. As that shifted, it became clear, a leader can't know how to function and even know how to build his organization if he doesn't know what's going on around him. That was the justification for thinking about the podcast and how do we help people see and understand what's going on around it, assess that Biblically, et cetera. 

Now, we're wrestling with, "All right, in the midst of Christians being found in a challenging culture, how can we now unite together and work together and hopefully try and say the same thing together to a world that needs what it is that we're trying to encourage people to pursue, which is why they were made the way they were made?" To understand that every person's made in God's image, they were made to image God, they were made for a relationship with God, they were made to steward the creation well. You can see what's happening with our stewardship by just looking around and watching the news. 

How do you turn that around? Well, you turn that around by reconnecting to the reason you were created to begin with, and that's what we're hoping to show by what we do. That creation roams the creation, and so as a result, we're anywhere and everywhere. When I think about the saying that says, "Welcome to where you discuss issues of God and culture," I'm actually thinking in my head, "That means we discuss anything and everything." 

Josh Winn: 

Well, speaking of that, great segue, because we've used the term variety, different perspectives. Here's some interesting statistics that we pulled here by category. Theology and Bible, the category of Theology and Bible, 106 episodes devoted to that. Faith and work, 61 episodes. Sexuality including LGBTQIA+, that's 40 episodes. Cultural engagement, 34 episodes. Race, 20 episodes. Engaging world religions, 12 episodes. The list goes on and on. How do you pick the topics? How do you pick the topics that people want to listen to, and that can be constructive? Because there are times where, man, you want to have a conversation, but it may not be the right time to have the conversation. How do you go about that? 

Bill Hendricks: 

I'd like to say that we don't so much pick the topics as the topics pick us. Literally, when Dr. Bock and Dr. Bailey were first starting and even contemplating this whole experiment, the question that Dr. Bailey had is, "Darrell, we've had some good podcasts here, but aren't you afraid? What happens if you run out of material? What happens if you run out of topics?" Well, this world, this culture, it's the gift that keeps on giving, because every day something pops up and you look at it and you go, "Huh, if I'm troubled by this, there must be a whole bunch of other people troubled or confused by this," and so we bring it to the group and say, "What do you think about this?" We're just getting started. This is off all those things I'm going. Man, there's so many more though. 

Darrell Bock: 

You should see our list that we have that we haven't recorded yet. Literally, we've got a queue that fills in all the topics, because sometimes what we'll do is we'll introduce a topic and then we'll say, "You know that little 10-minute segment right there, that needs a closer look," and we'll dive in. One of the things- 

Josh Winn: 

That's usually a common statement, you're like, "Oh, that's a podcast episode under itself." 

Darrell Bock: 

All itself, exactly right, and you'll hear us say that, but that's almost a note that we're sending to ourselves saying to be continued. The other thing that we've done that was a conscious decision at the beginning was we decided never to do a series as a series. In other words, we knew, for example, we did a thing on the Nicene Creed, and we broke it down into parts, but we didn't do it as a six-week series, six episodes, because we thought if someone isn't interested in that, they're going to go away and then we're going to have to get them back. Every podcast is self-sustaining to a degree and connected, but we also knew we were building an archive in the background, where you see the series is in the archive. If you come to our website and look at what we're doing, you can see all the other topics that relate to the topic that the particular episode is in, and you can get almost the seminary education on any one of these areas because of the amount of hours that are spent talking about this. 

We did the LBGTQ+ and everything else in about as many different ways as you could think about. We did it from the standpoint of the counselor, we did it from the standpoint of the person who's come out of the gay life, we've done it from the standpoint of the parent who's had a child who was in gay lifestyle coming out of it, we've done it from the standpoint of the impact of a child growing up in a gay family and what they thought about the way Christians treated their gay parents. We've cut that thing from about every angle that you can think of each time looking at it from a particular way because we're trying to give a holistic, ultimately a holistic look at the topic and give people a feel for how complex some of these discussions actually are. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Basically whatever makes us talk in our staff meeting, we end up doing a podcast. 

Kasey Olander: 

Where do we not get episode topics from? 

Josh Winn: 

How do you navigate the difficult topics? You brought up the many topics or angles for addressing just one hot topic in conversation today, and we all know that there are 30 to 40 other topics that command a lot of emotion on which people have strong convictions. It seems to me that it's an art to be able to guide that conversation in a way that's constructive and also challenging. That's what I mean by constructive. It's challenging, but it's still clear on where you stand in those convictions. How have you wrestled with that as you've entertained these topics? 

Kymberli Cook: 

Real quick. I think one of the things that I have personally learned is the power of framing a conversation as clearly as possible. When any of us are on our game, Darrell's the best at this, but when any of us are on our game, we're very clearly at the outset saying, "This is what we are saying, this is what we're not, and we are hoping to acknowledge those who might be listening for whom this could be particularly painful or particularly yeah, just a particularly painful conversation." In that, we demonstrate the pastoral dimension, that's hopefully the compassion, and then the courage is, but we still need to dive in because this is important. But the framing of the conversation, and I think I've taken that even into my regular day life with people setting up how you go about it, it puts it at least on some tracks that they can then run off, but usually it doesn't. It makes it a bit more stable for everybody involved. 

Darrell Bock: 

We're trying to turn people actually into better listeners. We're trying to help them listen where the other person is coming from, why that might be the case, what their whys and wherefores are. In many cases, these conversations are not an all or nothing kind of conversation. There's something in there where the other person is coming from that's worth zeroing in on and talking about in a significant way that can communicate an element of regard for the person while you're engaging them. Even when you're disagreeing with them, there are ways to get there. 

Our first responsibility is to instruct in such a way that you see and come to appreciate the nuances discussion. I usually say that many false beliefs have just enough element of truth in them to grab people, and so you have to look for that. You have to look for that. Now, the way it's spun, it could end up being a real problem, and I think that often happens in many of the more volatile discussions that we have. There's something that's a concern that's legitimate, but the application of it has somehow gotten offline. You want to think about being able to sort that out that way so that you can connect to the person you disagree with in a way and then say, "Hey, have you thought about doing it this way instead of that?" That ends up creating a conversation as opposed to a debate, and then you're in a better place because the person's defenses aren't going up. We're trying to figure out how to do that. Now, in some cases you just have to confront, there's just a disagreement, but usually that's not the place to start. 

Josh Winn: 

For a listener that listens to The Table and says, or let's just take a single episode, and they say, "I just disagree. I disagree with that. I disagree with that approach." What would you say to them? In generality, we don't know what the topic is, are you saying, "Hey, be a better listener," or, "Stick with us," or, "Know where the boundaries are in the framing of our discussion." Because when you cover some really challenging topics, and there may be some people that say, "I'm just not seeing where you're coming from," but Darrell, it sounds like you're saying there's something for everyone to learn in these conversations. 

Darrell Bock: 

Exactly. 

Josh Winn: 

I'm asking you, what would you say to them to say, stick with it? 

Darrell Bock: 

For example, I'll say things like, I think this is one of the most basic things. It should not surprise us if someone doesn't believe they're made in the image of God, that they're trying to make sense out of their life, and that they do it by forming their own identity. It's about the only other place they can go. They're sitting, and actually, if you listen to language of the way people talk when they're doing this, they're actually signaling this is where they're going because they say, "I'm trying to find myself." I go, "Well, I thought you were here all along." They're indicating that they're trying to make sense out of their life, and they've taken what we believe to be the most central feature to give you location and have said, "Well, I'm not going there," so I shouldn't be surprised they go somewhere else and how they go in that direction. 

Just having that sense of, and what I'm going to call understanding empathy, it doesn't mean you agree with it, but you understand what's driving the person, puts you in a different pace about how you engage with them, because you're not shocked, you're not caught off guard. You actually go, "Well, I think if I didn't believe what I believe, I think I would be going down that path too." Then, you pursue how to get relocated because they're searching, they're looking for a location. That's an example of the type of thing that we're doing where you're taking someplace where someone is because you've been listening to them and you say, "Okay, I get that." We're trying to say to them, "I think there's something missing here." But at the same time, you're also trying to say to them, "I get the search to make sense out of life. We're all trying to make sense out of life." 

Josh Winn: 

Any other? 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, James 1:19 is the verse that I think about when Darrell talks about that and he's wisely interpreted it. Let everybody be quick to hear and like lightning quick to hear first, slow to speak and slow, slow, slow, slow, slow to anger. In our culture, we generally do that exactly the opposite. 

Josh Winn: 

Exactly the opposite. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. In fact, I have a line, I say, "This is how the world takes that verse that says, let me be quick to speak, quick to be angry and slow to hear." Because the passage says that the anger doesn't accomplish the righteousness of God, but in our world, our anger allows me to express myself fully. That's what we're up against. We're trying to help people, we're really about ethos, if I can say it that way. We're really about what goes around what we do and the heart that we bring to it. That's really what we're trying to show as we go through all the topics of the podcast. We're trying to bring a different heart to what's going on. 

Josh Winn: 

Of all these topics, what are some of the favorites among our listeners? I'll get to you in a second. You guys get to choose your own favorites here in a minute, but as you've talked with people, what have you heard more than once where you're sitting there saying, "Boy, that one surprised me. It's been really popular." What are some of those? 

Kasey Olander: 

I've been really surprised by the diversity like we've been talking about, but it's not like, "Oh, all of this category is the most popular." For example, in our top 10, just by the number of downloads, what happens when we die? You're welcome, Kym. What happened to the Trinity on the cross?, The World of the New Testament, God's Design for Sexuality, Escaping the Prosperity Gospel, you can see that these are all over the place. 

Bill Hendricks: 

But they're the issues people are facing. 

Kymberli Cook: 

One that surprised me and continues to surprise me is we did a podcast on working moms. I didn't think too much about it. I was like, "Oh yeah, I'm a working mom. I can talk about it," that kind of thing. I get, at least once a month, some woman comes up to me and says, "I listen to that and it's just like that's my life and that was so helpful." That's been a surprising one that has been at least very popular in feedback that I've received. I don't know about you all. 

Josh Winn: 

Some of your favorites now or maybe a favorite podcast that has been recorded, I'll word it that way. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

I'm going to start this one off because I'm thinking to myself, it kind of hinges on your question you asked the last time, and then it goes forward with this one. because I mentioned that I love redemptive stories to show how the gospel met a person where they were at, because we know that God will leave the 99 for the one. I think that so often we hear of all these really good warm stories about how Christianity allows us to have these really good walks in life because we don't have all of the baggage to bring forward. I love those stories too. I love a pastor in the pulpit telling me about the great examples of how they lived a wonderful life and walked with the Lord all their lives and all that. That's wonderful. But what about the people who went off the rails and went to the left and the Lord had to bring them back to the right? 

With that in mind, just going on with one of my favorites is one that we just recently did. I didn't do it, but Darrell, Kym and Bill were a part of the conversation, and it was Shaping Leaders in Shifting Times. I love this one because they were sharing how they have shaped leaders in shifting times past, but how they continue to do through the Hendricks Center and all that they are going forward. I loved even the guests they had on this, Dr. Bill Lawrence was one of the guests, and he was sending the message that I'm sending now that I'm saying now, let the gospel meet people where they're at because it is good news and we do need to share it, and we can turn some things around through Christ who strengthens us. 

Darrell Bock: 

My favorites tend to be stories where I'm interviewing someone whose experience has been very different from my own. They take me to a world that I have never inhabited or rarely inhabited, or I only visit. It's a word that's controversial today, but it's an important word, it's the word diversity. Usually, I'm getting a perspective or an angle, a way of seeing life, a way of living a set of experiences that I'm just totally foreign to, and so I'm hearing someone apply their Christian faith to this environment, which is so different than my own, and I find it enlarges the way I see the world. 

I have learned so much doing these podcasts. We come in and the feeling is, well, you're a set of experts talking theologically about this, but because we're listening, we're learning. In the midst of listening and learning, your view of the world, of God's activity, of who he's working with and how he works and the way he works through people just expands and in ways in which something that was previously foreign now makes sense. That helps us to relate to people better across the board. Those are the ones. I remember, Bill, I'm going to point out one that Bill did. Bill had one with, is it Thomas Terrence? 

Bill Hendricks: 

Tom Terrence. 

Darrell Bock: 

Tom Terrence, and former Ku Klux Klan member who came to the Lord totally shifted his life. That was one amazing podcast, just hearing the entire journey of how he got into that to begin with, what God did with him to get his attention, what he's doing now. We talk about transformational activity that we engage in. We're in the business of, God's in the business of transforming people from sinners to be more like him. That was the full journey and really, really opened up a lot of eyes for how God can work and totally turn someone's life over upside down. 

Kasey Olander: 

Darrell, I like that you highlighted that it's building empathy, because some of my favorite ones. We've had Ron Deal on the show a lot, he's an expert in blended families. That's not my experience, it's not my background, and so to listen to him talk about how many different ways blended families can be manifest, but also the ways that they're affected was really eye-opening, helps build empathy and compassion for someone in the situation that I'm not in. 

Josh Winn: 

Yeah, empathy is a good word. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. I think those are some of my favorite ones that I've listened to. Then, gosh, it's hard to pick favorites. 

Josh Winn: 

They're like our children, right? 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, right. 

Josh Winn: 

Favorites. 

Darrell Bock: 

Exactly. 

Kasey Olander: 

I really have a soft spot for the one that Kym and I did with John Adair about Harry Potter, because it's nostalgic and I like Harry Potter. But also I think it's a good example of the cultural engagement dynamic that we've been talking about, that we're looking with kingdom eyes at a cultural phenomenon and we're saying, "Okay, what is it that the culture appreciates that we as Christians can also celebrate?" We as Christians celebrate courage and friendship, of course we do, and so I think that the discussion in that was really just a picture of the things that we do. 

Josh Winn: 

Favorite podcasts, favorite topic? 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, you mentioned Tom Terrence. That interview, that was definitely one of my favorites, and another one, somewhat along those lines. We had a woman who had written a book on, I believe it was Forgiving My Assassin, and she had been a lawyer in Czechoslovakia? 

Darrell Bock: 

Romania. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Romania, thank you, under Ceaușescu, so this communist, and she becomes a believer. Then, the authorities find out about it because she's representing Christians and churches in court and usually gets ruled against, but every once in a while wins one. She's caused a problem, so they wanted to get rid of her. This guy comes to her office and makes it clear that she's supposed to leave and she says, "Can I pray for you?", and she prays for him and he leaves, and eventually she, with the help of our government leaves Romania, ends up here in Dallas. Well, years later, she meets the guy who had visited her office and he said, "I needed to find you because I now am a Christian too." 

Josh Winn: 

Wow. 

Bill Hendricks: 

"The reason is, I was sent that day to kill you. I had the gun in my pocket. I was supposed to shoot you and you said, 'Can I pray for you?' When you started to pray for me, I'd never had anybody pray for me before," and he dissolved and he left. Then by amazing circumstances, God reached him. 

Darrell Bock: 

Just to show you how global that story is, we did another one with a man in South Africa, who's now a pastor, who was part of the anti-Apartheid movement, student movement back in the time when that was going on before Nelson Mandela or while Nelson Mandela was working, who had been beaten up by the South African police on a regular basis and he tells the story in his testimony that one day after he came to the Lord, he walks into a hospital and the guy in the hospital bed who's dying is the guy who beat him up, and the guy asked him for forgiveness. 

He talks about the dual things that were going on in his mind. The one was his reaction about why should I have to forgive this guy, et cetera. Then the other one, because he was a mature Christian, he knew he didn't have a choice, that God had forgiven him, and so he needed to be forgiving to this person. He talks through that. It's one of the most powerful testimonies I've ever heard in my life anywhere, but it's very similar. We are surfacing stories of people who have been in the midst of what it means to live in a fallen world, and we're trying to indicate how God is at work in the midst of our falling world. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

I know I mentioned one of my favorites being the one about leaders, but one that I'm hoping will be soon released that we've been approved for is Dimas Salabarios. The title of that podcast is from Dealing Dope to Preaching Hope, because he's talking about how his life was first early on spent with him not knowing any better or knowing any better and not choosing any better and doing that and how God literally intervened in his life in so many different ways that back to that, leave the 99 for the one. It was apparent that that's what God was doing for him, and now he has just got a turnaround agenda that's crazy for the Lord, going everywhere now all over the United States and abroad, preaching and hoping to turn some people's lives around. 

I'll give you this example. He was able to use how he smuggled drugs to how he's smuggling Bibles into countries that don't want them, it is sanctioned. His story is just one that we're seeing through him, his eyes and his life's experience, how God used him for that story to be told for such a time as this, and I love that. It's that kind of thing that gives you an opportunity through this podcast. 

Darrell Bock: 

We run the gamut from that all the way over to thinking about how the arts, we haven't talked about this, but how the arts should be viewed and how we ought to think about the arts and the impact of our culture. Our staff, half of our staff has just come back from Sundance thinking through that experience, and we're listening for the way the world sees the world and struggles to try and make sense out of life because we think in that there are actually clues about how to share the gospel. 

Josh Winn: 

Yeah. Kym, if a person is coming to The table podcast, maybe they're new, where would you direct them to start? Do you like how I put you on the spot? 

Darrell Bock: 

The easiest question you've asked. 

Josh Winn: 

Where should they start to begin to taste the impact that's coming through from each of you? It's really amazing to hear about the impact these conversations have had on your lives. I'm sitting here challenged by forgiveness. Where would you encourage them to start? Because 600 is a lot of episode and you cover a lot of ground and some topics may not resonate with people. Should they search for the thing they're interested in? What would you recommend? 

Kymberli Cook: 

Well, like we've talked about, we do have … I think we had a 10-year anniversary podcast, and if you're listening to this, then you've been introduced. I think these are actually helpful ones to start with because it kind of gives you an introduction to the hosts and to, again, the variety that we've been talking about, variety of topics and points out the different, I don't know, topics for lack of a better way of saying it, that we do cover. I'm going to be honest, Josh, I don't know that there would be one place that I would say, apart from that, if somebody's like, "Hey, I'd like all the background." I think that's actually what makes our podcast so unique to a degree. 

Josh Winn: 

So your advice is, "Hey, scroll through it. Scroll through the options and look for the ones that seem to catch you." 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yeah, and because it's the same method applied. I don't know, like my philosophy professor told me at one point, you just have to jump in the pool and you'll figure it out. But really, because it is the same method applied over and over and over and over again, but it's just in all of these different contexts and all these different conversations. 

Josh Winn: 

Okay. Next to last question, and I'm looking at you, Darrell, but really, any of you can answer, what's the future of The Table podcast? 

Darrell Bock: 

We're just going to keep podcasting. We've got a queue that's as long as all our arms put together in terms of what's coming. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

And some. 

Darrell Bock: 

And some, and we are trying to figure out how we can make it better. We're always wrestling and talking amongst ourselves. We meet together on a pretty regular basis talking about how we can do a better job. We're going to do a better job of talking about you, which means the single person out there who's listening, because we tend to talk about y'all because we're from the South. We want to shed the all and just talk about you, the individual person, why is the particular person listening to this podcast, why should they be interested in what we're saying and what do we have for them in particular? 

Josh Winn: 

That's how I want to finish. Here's my last word challenge from each, finish this sentence. You should listen to The Table podcast because, and I want each of you to finish that sentence. 

Darrell Bock: 

Make you see God in a new light. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Help you see diversity and the grace of God in your life and in others. 

Kymberli Cook: 

This is getting harder as it goes down. It'll cause you to read scripture differently. 

Kasey Olander: 

It helps you cultivate empathy and humility as you appreciate and embrace a variety of topics, guests and hosts. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Because it'll show you the relevance of theology and God's word to everyday life. 

Josh Winn: 

Well said, well said. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Can I say this before you go anywhere else? 

Josh Winn: 

Sure. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

I'm going to say, this has been a really, really good interview. I'm not saying that because I need any brownie points, but I just want to say to you that it would be too bad that if people don't know or if a listener doesn't know that this is out there, then they can almost get so much information just off this 600th episode that will tell them so much about the essence of The Table podcast, and you did a great job doing it. 

Josh Winn: 

Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank each of you for spending this hour with me, I've really enjoyed it. We want to thank you on behalf of our other hosts of The Table podcast, we want to thank you for joining us for this 600th episode. We pray that it's been insightful for you. We pray that you have come across maybe a topic, we've mentioned a topic or an episode that you want to go and explore further. We ask that to you subscribe to The Table podcast and join us next time as we unpack issues of God and culture to demonstrate the relevance of theology in everyday life. Thank you.