TWO PRESIDENTS: BAILEY & YARBROUGH IN CONVERSATION – PART 1

INTERVIEWED BY NEIL R. COULTER & KRAIG MCNUTT

In our centennial year, we express gratitude to God for the leaders he has called to guide Dallas Theological Seminary. Not only has each president brought unique gifts and skills to the role, but the transition from one president to the next has always modeled ongoing, gracious, supportive camaraderie. In our magazine issues this year, we invite you into a conversation with Chancellor Mark Bailey (MB) and President Mark Yarbrough (MY) as they reflect together on the core character of DTS and what it means to answer God’s call to seminary leadership.

Q: For many years in evangelical Christianity, just the single word “Dallas” has meant something all on its own. What did “Dallas” mean to you before you came to campus the first time? And how has that meaning changed and grown as you’ve moved through different responsibilities and roles over the years?

MB: My first introduction to Dallas Seminary, or I should say Lewis Sperry Chafer, was my father, who was a lay Bible teacher. He had a book by Chafer on grace in his little bookshelf. Pastors who would come to our house to visit us would see that book and sort of sidle up beside it and try to slide the bookshelf open and take that book down. And so, at about age ten or twelve, I had a feeling that there was something special about Dr. Chafer and, therefore, about Dallas Theological Seminary. And that only enhanced over the years. I entered Bible college and then went to seminary. At that point, DTS had a reputation (and it still does) of being an elite institution—four-year ThM, rigorous coursework, mandatory Greek and Hebrew for anyone who was going to be a pastor. The smartest student in our Bible school applied and got accepted into Dallas, so the rest of us were chicken. I didn’t even apply to Dallas. I didn’t think I could get in, and I was part of the Conservative Baptist Association that had ties to Western Seminary in Portland, Oregon. But almost all of my profs at Western were Dallas grads, and everybody talked about Dallas all the time, telling stories about beloved professors like Dr. Walvoord and Prof. Hendricks. So, for me, Dallas was always a school of prestige, highly esteemed, biblical, dispensational, and solid to the core. That reputation was planted deep and early in my life, and it’s never gone away. After I’d taught for nine years at what is now called Arizona Christian University, Dallas called with an offer to teach, and the Lord’s timing was so perfect and right.

MY: In the era when I was a prospective student,  “Dallas” was almost synonymous with “Bible” (not to denigrate the word “Bible” in any way!). I thought, “This is a place—and a community—that is committed to the Holy Scripture.” There was an intentional rigor, a love of Scripture. And not just to understand it academically, but how to communicate it, how to lay it out as a beautifully presented, gorgeous meal for our sustenance. It’s for our thriving. What I was drawn to in many of the communicators of Scripture I’d grown up watching or reading was their love of God’s Word and how to handle it, how to treasure it. So for me, as a prospective student in the late 1980s and early 1990s, completing Bible college and getting ready to move to seminary, that was my picture of DTS. It was a place that treasured the Word of God, and they wanted to teach people to treasure the Word of God. And the people who were associated with it modeled that.

Then it was just confirmed when I came here. From the day I’ve been here, when I came as a student in 1993, I’ve never been let down. There are no perfect places; there are no perfect people. There’s a perfect Savior. And we all know that; that’s our given in this dialogue. But I have seen people associated with Dallas Theological Seminary—those who teach, those who lead—with a quest to honor God’s Word and to say it really is God’s breath, in written form. It’s for our growth, and our growth is for a purpose. He has good work for us to do. It’s that beautiful picture that we get out of 2 Timothy 3:16. I don’t think we’ve lost that treasure at DTS.

Q: Is DTS an idea, a place, a school, a community, a movement?

MB: I’ve always said that Dallas Theological Seminary is more than a school—it’s a movement, a movement of leaders, a fountainhead of ministries. Dallas has always fostered an entrepreneurial ministry creativity. Dr. Chafer and other leaders were willing to blaze a unique trail. Faculty members over the years have continued to cultivate that creativity and trail-blazing. I think of all the ministries that originated through DTS grads: from  Young Life, Insight for Living, and Living on the Edge to missions, schools, and so many more. The seminary has always brought a grounding in the Word of God to a focus on the whole world.

MY: I totally agree; it’s a movement. I’m thrilled with all of our campuses and locations across the country, and all the teaching we do across the world and in various languages. But “movement” helps me think more holistically about what God is doing at DTS. The seminary has always been a place (and now a lot of places in the US and around the world), but it’s the nature of an educational institution to send people out. And once DTS graduates go out, the message goes to other places around the world, and the movement starts. From the founding, DTS has talked about  “equipping”—preparing to do something. That something is the proclamation of the greatest news this world has ever heard, and that’s what DTS is about. This is not an ivory tower where we get together and think deep thoughts. No, it’s got to move beyond here. We have to be a seminary without boundaries. It’s all about being out there: a movement.

Q: Which Scripture passages are particularly significant for the life and history of DTS?

MB: The difficulty of identifying a single passage is that all sixty-six books are sacred to us. “Preach the Word,” of course, is our motto.

MY: That’s so true about selecting just one verse, or even a selection of verses. The first verse I thought of was also the motto that’s embedded in our seal: “Preach the word” (2 Tim 4:2 NIV). “Be prepared in season and out of season.” This wedding of knowing God’s Word and living God’s Word is what DTS has always been known for. It’s not just “understand the Word,” but “proclaim it,”  “preach it,” “get it out there.”

MB: As an educational model, Colossians 1:24–28 (NET), “that we may present every person mature in Christ,” gives the philosophy of Christian education that drives DTS.

MY: The pastoral letters have always played an important part in the ideology of the seminary. When I think of our core values at DTS, the first one is  “Trust in God’s Word,” which we relate to 2 Timothy 3:16–17 (NIV), “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” That’s another touchstone that’s guided DTS through the years.

MB: And then I think of all the passages and whole books that relate specifically to our doctrinal distinctives: ecclesiology (Eph 3; Phil; Col); grace (Eph 2:8–9; Rom 4–5); salvation (Rom 1–5); eschatology (1 & 2 Thess).

Personally, I hold on to Philippians 1:21 (NIV), “For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.” And also the  “transformation passage,” 2 Corinthians 3:18.

MY: A verse that has always been important to me, and that keeps showing up throughout our history, is Ephesians 3:20, “Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more . . .” That verse has appeared through various presidents and faculty members. Obviously it’s a famous passage and a hinge point in Paul’s address to the church at Ephesus. But I think there has been a heartbeat of Dallas Theological Seminary of saying, number one, it’s to the glory of God, and number two, this is what God is doing. He can do more than all we ask or imagine. Our call is just to be faithful and leave the results to him and to do what he’s called us to do, proclaim what he’s called us to proclaim. So those are verses that certainly come to mind. Obviously when it gets into some of our more detailed theological convictions, I could speak more about some of those. But I think in that great wedding of commitment to God’s Word (to faithfully proclaim it) and to just be good stewards of what he’s asked us to do (trusting him with the results)—that’s always been the heartbeat of the seminary. I think that was the heartbeat of Dr. Chafer, that was the heartbeat of Dr. Walvoord, Dr. Campbell, Dr. Swindoll, and certainly modeled by Dr. Bailey. And by God’s grace, we’ll continue to have that be our heartbeat as well.

Q: How does each president lead the seminary in a distinctive way?

MB: I’ve been a part of DTS’s history since the second president, and I’ve seen that each president has a unique personality and a different set of gifts. When I became president, I knew that if God has his hand on this, then it’s not dependent on a single leader—and that’s comforting. I see that in each period of the seminary’s life, the world was different and what was needed at that time was different. God always met that need as he raised up each leader. I remember, after Dr. Campbell announced his retirement, praying that God would give us a president with a pastor’s heart—little dreaming that he would send us Chuck Swindoll, one of the premiere pastors in the world. 

 Though I often felt like a chihuahua in a pack of big dogs, in regard to the seminary’s history of leadership, 

I know that when you watch God work, it’s not about self-confidence; it’s trust in him. As a leader, you watch God do things that are so far beyond you and what you could do on your own that there’s no explanation for it other than God orchestrating students, faculty, givers, growth, and opportunities. You live in confidence that God has his person for that time, and then you stay humble to recognize that it’s not about you but about him. That’s been one of the hallmarks of all our presidents: regardless of their gifting, they modeled a humility and dependence upon God. I watch Chuck, this man with such a big personality and big heart, and he is always so humble, so surprised that God would choose to use him as he has.  That says a lot.

MY: I so agree with that. Every president has to assess what can’t change and what must change. That’s going to be different for every president because the world keeps spinning. We can’t sit static. The way we did things in 1924 can’t fully be the way that we do things today.  Adaptations must be made. As a leader, you have to constantly ask and assess. The way I say it is that we’re married to the mission, but we date the methodology. Some things have remained the same since 1924, but who our students are, the culture they’re coming out of, and what’s happening in terms of the church have changed. And what is happening globally has radically changed. Methods of education have changed, as has communication. It has changed every one of us. So we can’t be a school that’s locked into “this is exactly the way we do it.” And therefore every president has to wrestle with that. The listening dynamic, that’s part of it. Carefully observing what’s happening will determine some needs not just of the church in the West but also of the church globally. It’s watching, listening, and observing what God is doing on the planet. That’s what 

I think every president has to do. It’s what I have to wrestle with.

WATCH FOR PART TWO OF THIS CONVERSATION IN THE FALL 2024 ISSUE!

About the Contributors

Kraig W. McNutt

Kraig McNutt is Executive Director of Marketing & Communications for DTS. He studied philosophy at Indiana University (BA) and holds degrees from the University of Kentucky (MSLS) and Grace Theological Seminary (MDiv). He is also an author and historian on the American Civil War.

Neil R. Coulter

Neil R. Coulter completed degrees in music performance and ethnomusicology from Wheaton College and Kent State University. He and his family lived in Papua New Guinea for twelve years, where Neil served as an ethnomusicology and arts consultant for Wycliffe Bible Translators. In 2015, he helped design and launch the PhD in World Arts at Dallas International University. He teaches doctoral courses in theory and ethnography at DIU’s Center for Excellence in World Arts. At DTS, he teaches about art, literature, film, and theology, and he is senior writer and editor of DTS Magazine. Neil is married to Joyce, and they have three sons.