The Role of Apologetics in the Church

Urban Apologetics Volume 1 by Eric Mason 

Urban Apologetics Volume 2 by Eric Mason  

Mason’s Ministry Website (Thriving)  

Turek’s Ministry Website (Crossexamined)  

Hollywood Heroes by Frank and Zach Turek 

I Don’t Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist by Frank Turek and Norman Geisler  

Preaching Christ From the Old Testament by Greidanus  

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Welcome to The Table Podcast where we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of theology to everyday life. My name is Jeremiah Chandler, and I'm excited to be the guest host today on The Table Podcast. Through my internship here at The Hendricks Center, we are going to be discussing apologetics. This topic is very near and dear to my heart, and I could not think of two better people to be having this conversation with. I'm joined by Dr. Eric Mason and Dr. Frank Turek. Both of these men have played a huge role in my life personally, and so I'm extremely honored and grateful to be discussing apologetics with you guys today. Thank you for being here. 

Frank Turek: 

Thanks, Jeremiah. 

Eric Mason: 

Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. It's an honor to be on here. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Yep. So Dr. Mason, Dr. Turek, you guys are no strangers to conversations around apologetics, but if you could, would you mind just introducing yourselves to our listeners and then also how you got into apologetics? 

Eric Mason: 

I'm going to let my brother Frank go first. 

Frank Turek: 

I got into apologetics because I came to faith through apologetics. I grew up Catholic because I'm from New Jersey, and it's the law. You're either Catholic or Jewish in New Jersey. I went to Catholic high school, but I didn't really know who Jesus was until I was in the Navy. I met the son of a Methodist minister, and I had so many questions for this guy. He finally said, "Look, you just need to get Josh McDowell books."More Than a Carpenter." So I read those books back in like 1985, and became a Christian. And when I got out of the Navy, I went to Southern Evangelical Seminary in Charlotte. Still a great place to get an education, ses.edu/frank. Don't forget to order the pillow too. And you can get a great education online. And I actually moved to Charlotte to study under Dr. Geisler, and then later I started a ministry called CrossExamined.org where we go to colleges, high schools and churches, and present evidence that Christianity is true. 

Eric Mason: 

Stormin' Norman. You studied under Stormin' Norman. That's what we used to call him. 

Frank Turek: 

That's right. You know about him, Eric? 

Eric Mason: 

Oh, yeah, man. His bibliology book had a major impact on me. Intro to Bibliology, it's a great book. 

Frank Turek: 

Oh, yeah? 

Eric Mason: 

Great book. Yeah. So my name is Eric Mason, born and raised in Washington, D.C. Now I'm in Philadelphia, pastoring here. Epiphany Fellowship Church here in Philadelphia. What else? I'm the husband of one wife, been married for almost 27 years. I have three boys, one girl, and I've written eight books, two more on the way. And yeah, I'm glad to be… I'm a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary, so this is my alma mater. And so anytime Dallas calls me. It has had such a rich impact on my relationship with Jesus, my understanding of, and the commitment to handling the Word of God in a way of integrity, particularly in the false teaching age that we're in. So I really appreciate what the Lord did through DTS for my wife and I. So thanks for having me. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Amen. 

Frank Turek: 

DTS is the gold standard on studying the Bible. 

Eric Mason: 

Yes, sir. 

Frank Turek: 

Dr. Geisler taught there for many years, and so many other greats have, and there's still great professors down there. 

Eric Mason: 

Absolutely. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Very true. Dr. Mason, how did you get into apologetics? 

Eric Mason: 

So interestingly enough, I didn't know what apologetics was. When I was in college in the early '90s, I trusted the Lord on a college campus, Bowie State University in Bowie, Maryland. And during that time, hip hop was very anti-Christian because of Nation of Islam, and a Nation of Gods and Earths, Five Percenters, and a lot of Pan-Africanism. And so there was a lot of Black identity stuff during that time. And one of the particular long-term things that's been… They've been saying this for almost a hundred years, people like Noble Drew Ali, Elijah Muhammad and others, that Christianity is a white man's religion. And so back then, we didn't have the plethora of resources to access scholarship that are already kind of debunked a lot of… Kind of like the 18th century mystics era where you had Gerald Massey, Helena Blavatsky, Alvin Boyd Kuhn, all of those different mystics that kind of came out against Christianity being a copy of Egyptian religions, you know? 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Mm-hmm. 

Eric Mason: 

And so we didn't have that. So I began searching during that time as a believer on how to do that. So that's where it came from. It really didn't come from me wanting to do apologetics. It was me as one of the few Christian men on a Black college campus that was anti-Christian. That was kind of the seeding ground for me to… Over the years, I didn't realize until later that it was called apologetics, what I was doing. So yeah. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Gotcha. Wow, so it sounds like for both of you guys, apologetics was really fundamental in, Frank, how you came to faith. And also Dr. Mason, for just for you surviving a college campus, and trying to work through your faith as well. Is it fair to say? Is that fair? 

Eric Mason: 

Yeah, that's safe to say. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Well, how would you guys define apologetics? I know we've said it a couple of times. For our listeners who may not know, how would you guys define what is apologetics? 

Eric Mason: 

Yeah, I just simply define it based on all… Every apologetics' book got first Peter 3:15 in it. The word apology, given a reason for the hope that is within you. And so I believe it is a defense or giving a defense for the faith, or giving clarity for the faith. And so I just believe it's simply that's what apologetics is. Yeah. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Dr. Turek, how about you? 

Frank Turek: 

Yeah, ditto. Same thing. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Ditto 

Frank Turek: 

What you said there, what Eric said there. Also, it's a lot about removing objections as well, not just giving evidence that it's true, but when people give you objections, can you answer those objections? 

Eric Mason: 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

That's good. One analogy that really helps me as I read through the Bible, I noticed the Parable of the Sower talks about the seed landing on good soil. An analogy that helps me is apologetics is kind of preparing the soil. So when you think about answering objections, when you're planting a seed, you want to break up the hard ground. And to me, that's kind of like, oh yeah, we're breaking up the objections or doubts that people may have, but then also so the seed can grow, you also want to provide fertilizer nutrients for the soil as well. And that's kind of what Frank you were just saying, making a positive case for Christianity. 

Frank Turek: 

Yeah. I think also part of the four soils shows you that there's a lot of people out there that just won't be receptive too, it doesn't matter what you do. That's why I always ask people, "If Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?" And a lot of times they'll answer, "No." Because it's not a… problem, it's a heart problem, right? They don't want it to be true. They don't want there to be a God because they want to be God over their own lives. It's always important to ask them, "If Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?" Because it just cuts through all the noise that they're putting out there, and it forces them to deal with the issue. If it's true, you're going to follow? If they say no, it doesn't matter how much evidence you give them. 

Eric Mason: 

Absolutely. Absolutely. It's interesting that you bring that up. I remember a book from back in the day called I'm Glad You Asked, you probably read it. 

Frank Turek: 

Oh, yeah, that's… What's the guy's name? 

Eric Mason: 

Boa and the other guy, I forgot. 

Frank Turek: 

Larry something, wasn't it? 

Eric Mason: 

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Frank Turek: 

Yeah. 

Eric Mason: 

And they talk about those barriers, the intellectual barrier, the emotional barrier, the volitional barrier. The volitional barrier, you just can't break through that. That's Ephesians 2 stuff. You know you can't do nothing about that. But really dealing with the intellectual barrier, which is barrier that's based on information and values. And then emotional barriers, the factual things, what's the more experiential and personal preferential reasons why the gospel? I mean it's nothing. All that's broken down into 2 Corinthians 4:3-4, "The god of this world has blinded the minds so that they won't see the gospel." And so I see apologetics as the Holy Spirit using it as an aid to remove a barrier, whether emotional, or intellectual, in order that people can actually hear and see the gospel. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Right. 

Frank Turek: 

Yes. It's an important aspect of Christianity is providing evidence. It's interesting that the one world religion that you can demonstrate that is actually true, so many Christians don't avail themselves of that ability. They don't think it's necessary when in today's culture, man, 70 years ago, you could open the Bible and people would say, "The Bible, what does it say?" Now you open the Bible, they call you names. You got to give them some evidence, if they're going to be open. 

Eric Mason: 

Absolutely. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Very true. Well, Frank, that's a good segue. What would you say to the pastor or the church leader who doesn't feel that apologetics is necessary? 

Frank Turek: 

Well, it's actually a command. It's not a suggestion. 

Eric Mason: 

That's right. 

Frank Turek: 

He's ready to give an answer, right? Paul says, "I'm set in defense of the gospel." Jude says that, "We need to contend for the faith." It's not an opinion, it's part of the Scriptures, and for good reason. Why should you be a Christian and not a Muslim? Why should you be a Christian and not an atheist? Why should you be a Christian and not a Buddhist or a Hindu or make up your own religion like so many people do today? The reason you want to be a Christian is because it's true. 

Eric Mason: 

That's so good, so good. Yeah. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

That's great. Dr. Mason, do you have anything to add to that? 

Eric Mason: 

Ask the question one more time? 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

What would you say to the pastor or church leader who feels that apologetics isn't necessary in the church? 

Eric Mason: 

I would say he is not doing evangelism. I mean, it's impossible in this world to say that, right? 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Mm-hmm. 

Eric Mason: 

One of the things I tell people is, any pastor or the pastors not preaching the Word. And the reason why I say that is because a lot of people always ask me, "Where do I start an apologetics?" I said, "The fundamentals, learn the faith. You can't defend what you don't know." I said, "It's like a guy wanting to learn how to play basketball that wants to start off with a crossover, and he doesn't even know how to dribble. I can't even survive some suicides or some two-a-days, you know? 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Mm-hmm. 

Eric Mason: 

I'm like, "Nah, bro, you got fundamentals to do, and you can only defend what you have a basic handle on." And so you don't start learning the fundamentals through apologetics. And so it's kind of like Simon the Sorcerer, "I'm with the Holy Spirit so I can learn how to do what they're doing," kind of thing. It's like, "Nah, bro, you have to learn the fundamentals." And so I think if someone's teaching the… It's impossible. If you are teaching the didaskalían, if you're teaching the sound teaching, if you're teaching and preaching biblical truth and it invades culture, whether it's through social media, or whether it's through evangelism or whatever, you're going to come up against that. And when you begin bringing clarity, like Frank said, or evidence or whatever, you're doing apologetics whether you know it or not, so yeah. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

That's good. When I first got into apologetics, I really only understood it in terms of how you explained it, Dr. Mason, in terms of evangelism. But how actually can we actually utilize apologetics within the context of the church? 

Eric Mason: 

One of the things that a pastor's role is to lead, feed, care, know and protect. Let me say that again. Lead, feed, care, know, protect. That's the dimensions biblically of a pastor, and that is, I have a whole teaching on it. The last one, protect, you'll see in Titus 1, you'll see in 1 Timothy 1:5, he said, "The reason why I left you in Ephesus is that you may teach certain people not to teach strange doctrine." 1 and 2 Timothy are fundamentally written because there's false doctrine in the church, not out in the culture. 

Also, 2 Peter 2, is one of the most dense passages in the New Testament on false teaching. And so I think that in this day and age, with the level of false teachers that are online that have popular views and people in the pews. And sometimes it frustrates me and I love my people, and I tell them off nicely. And I'll say to them, "I don't see how you listen to me and the elders here preach, and you're liking that guy's posts to his absolutely asinine, his theological framework. He has no hermeneutics, has no love of the sheep. It's about either money or it's about some false prophecy, or it's about you about to come into your season. It's a egocentric hermeneutic." 

And so a lot of times, I tell people it's very important. And a lot of my questions from people… Because I wrote a chapter in one of my books on deconstructing the faith. And one of the things that I talk about deconstruction is really coming to terms with what you really believe. That's what I believe deconstruction is, coming to terms with what you really believe. And a lot of times in the process of people dealing with stuff. I'm dealing with stuff like people in my church being influenced by Hebrew Israelism, the Black people are the original Hebrews, and the people over in the land are the fake Jews. And I'm dealing with somebody with witchcraft, and they believe in syncretism, that they believe that the crystals on the priestly garment is God can utilize those as incantation things to help invoke His presence. And so I'm saying all that to say, in the church today, I've had more need for apologetics in the local church than I think I ever have. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Wow. That's really good. Yeah, that is- 

Frank Turek: 

Yeah, there's so much Jeremiah, that comes through this thing right here, people getting a lot of misinformation- 

Eric Mason: 

That's right. 

Frank Turek: 

… from their phones, that it all the more necessary to counter it with good teaching as Dr. Mason was saying. If you don't have good teaching, if you don't know how to interpret the Word, you're very susceptible. And isn't it interesting that if you go to flyover country in the Bible, which for many people is Roman 16, that's where Paul says, "Greet Rufus, and greet so-and-so and greet all these people." You're like, "I don't need to read that," right? Well, right in the middle of that- 

Eric Mason: 

Yes, sir. 17 and 18. 

Frank Turek: 

… there's a section where Paul basically says, I don't have it in front of me, but he basically says, "That the divisive people in the church are the people bringing false teaching in, not the people who are trying to contend for the faith." 

Eric Mason: 

That's right. 

Frank Turek: 

So whoever claims that you're divisive because you're running off false teachers, it's not you that's divisive, it's the false teacher that's divisive. 

Eric Mason: 

That's right. 

Frank Turek: 

You need to protect the sheep, and that's what you're supposed to do if you're a pastor, or what you're supposed to do with your kids or yourself. You got to chase off the false teaching, and you got to know what the truth is in order to do that. 

Eric Mason: 

So good. So good. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Amen. That's right. That's good. So as you guys are both engaged in, like you said, apologetics within ministry, how do you go about… Dr. Mason, you said sometimes people, the issues in your church that come up. Dr. Turek, I know you guys visit college campuses. But how do you go about knowing what questions need to be answered, versus just answering questions that you have a good answer for? 

Frank Turek: 

Well, when you're out there enough, you see the kind of questions that are asked. And right now, I'd say the top three objections to Christianity are morality, morality and morality. 

Eric Mason: 

Wow. 

Frank Turek: 

All about morality. Go to a college campus, you're going to get questions on LGBTQ, you're going to get questions on why did God kill the Canaanites? You're going to get questions on, does the Bible condone slavery? You're going to get questions on what about those that have never heard? These are all actually moral questions. 

Eric Mason: 

Absolutely. 

Frank Turek: 

They're all about how people are supposed to live, and is the Bible really true? Actually, people, they don't ask as much is the Bible true? They ask more is the Bible or is God good? Now, when they're doing that, they're assuming a standard, and they actually have to steal a standard from God in order to say, "Well, the God of the Bible's not the true God, or the God of the Bible's evil." Look, if there is no God, there is no good or evil, it's just someone's opinion. But if God does exist, the only question is, who is the true God? And the way I think we can show that Christianity is the true God is you only have to answer two questions. Does God exist, and did Jesus rise from the dead? If the answer to those two questions is true, or is yes, I should say, then Christianity is true, and the Christian God is the true God. That's what we do in the book, I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. 

Eric Mason: 

Yeah. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

That's right. Which is a great read. Great read. Dr. Mason, what would you say, since you're actual in a church context, how would you recommend or what would you suggest to pastors who are struggling with some of the questions that people are raising in their congregation, and how can apologetics be the answer to some of those issues? 

Eric Mason: 

Yeah, I study the text and my people, and culture all the time. I'm watching snippets of podcasts that they watch. Because you got to know that you're not your sheep's only pastor, right? And so, one of the things, I'm looking at Joe Budden's clips, I'm looking at Math Hoffa, I'm looking at The Breakfast Club, I'm looking at Fresh and Fit. I'm looking at all of these, because that's what they listening to. And so I can build my series off of biblically whether I'm going through a particular book of the Bible because of a lot of apostasy was going on, and a lot of deconstruction. I went through the Book of Hebrews because that book is about challenging the church on apostasy, right? 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Mm-hmm. 

Eric Mason: 

And talking about how Christ is better, and don't give up. That's the theme of the book. Right now, I'm about to go through second Peter. Before this, I just finished up a series on culture shift. And so I'm constantly… And then I got an online presence, and so a lot of the people in the age demographic that my folk are in, I got mostly Gen Z and millennials, and so I know where they're listening to, and then I interact with them. I have test groups that I talk to, not official test groups, but I kind of shoot questions. And I'm in DMs with some of my members, and I'll shoot them this, tell them what they think. 

And it all helps because it helps me to get a general… That's what the Bible talks about. I hope I'm using this verse in context. "Know well your flocks and herds," at least it can apply to this, right? And so, one of the things I try to do is know where people are. And so that means I'm studying the things that they're thinking through. I'm thinking through, if they're talking about entrepreneurialism and they're into it, I'm like, "What's influencing their desire for entrepreneurialism?" And if they're in the Black identity, are you making your blackness king? How are we doing? Are we letting our theology influence our sociology? So I'm always working through different things like that to just make sure that I'm able to… First off, the Bible says in Ezra 7:10, it says, "Ezra said it's hard to study the law, to understand it, and to practice it, and then to teach it to Israel." And so I try to run things through my own soul, so that I can also viably engage God's people with that. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Oh, that's good. Dr. Turek, what would you say when you're in churches, what are some of the issues that people reach out to you to address or respond to? 

Frank Turek: 

Well, we were just in Pittsburgh at a church, myself, Alisa Childers, Natasha Crain to do a seminar called UNSHAKEN. And I got 80 questions right here from that service. 

Eric Mason: 

Wow. 

Frank Turek: 

Normally when I do Q&A, I just have a microphone, and people ask whatever they want. But there are so many questions here on LGBTQ, there are questions here… you know what's going on? And Eric, you just mentioned this about deconstruction. 

Eric Mason: 

Yeah. 

Frank Turek: 

There's a lot of people that are dealing with that in their families now. "My parents have deconstructed and they don't want me in their life, or vice versa." "The kids deconstructed and doesn't want the parents in their lives, and he's even using the grandkids as bargaining chips," which is just ridiculous. There's questions about politics, there's questions here about the Trinity. You get questions about, we understand the Trinity, there are questions about, you always get how old's the earth? And I always say, I'm absolutely convinced the universe is at least 62 years old. There's all sorts of different questions. A lot of them though, as I mentioned earlier, have to do with morality. How do people live? 

Eric Mason: 

Yeah. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

What would you say is the driving force, because Dr. Mason, you say you study culture. Frank, you're getting all these questions. What would you say, what has shifted in our culture that's causing people to want to focus on maybe less about what's true but more about what's good and is God good? 

Eric Mason: 

I just think the prophecies in 1 Timothy 4:1-2, and 2 Timothy 3, and 2 Timothy 4:1-4, I just think they're just coming to pass. "In later times, many will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons," right? 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Mm-hmm. 

Eric Mason: 

And so people will accumulate for them… They won't endure a sound doctrine, but they will accumulate for themselves… "They will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance with their own desires." So I really believe that it's… The last chapter of my first book is what was an important chapter, and I wrote… The first book on Urban Apologetics rather. I said, "We have to treat apologetics like spiritual warfare. It's not merely a will battle. It's not merely a intellectual battle. It's not merely a moral battle. It is a war." That's what it calls doctrines of demons. That means spirits are behind these false teachings going out. 

And so we have to remember, that's why Paul in Colossians 4:2-6, he prayed for the open door. He said, "Pray for us," right? So in other words, because he understood, even in Jude, he said, "Prays all times in the Spirit," based on Jude 3. "Contending for the faith that was once delivered up for us." But he also talks about praying. Now Paul talks about that in… he talks about praying for boldness in Ephesians 6:18. So I really believe that fundamentally it's an invasion of overt push of the enemy to really try to destroy the image of God's glory in the earth. 

Frank Turek: 

Yeah, as Dr. Mason just said, that whole passage where Paul talks about, "People are going to let their itching ears tell them what they want to hear, and get instructors around them that are going to tell them what they want to tell them, and their God is their belly and all this." It's more and more today about meology than theology." 

Eric Mason: 

That's right. 

Frank Turek: 

It's like, I want God to agree with me, and so I'm just going to create a God in my image rather than follow the true God. And I know that people always ask the question a lot about pain and suffering. Why does God allow evil and all this, right? 

Eric Mason: 

Yep. 

Frank Turek: 

But I think the bigger test that we have, particularly in America, is not evil, pain and suffering, is too much prosperity. 

Eric Mason: 

Absolutely. 

Frank Turek: 

Because when things start going well, that's when we forget about God, and then we start using God as our cosmic candy man. Like, "God, if you get me this man, I'll be happy," right? 

Eric Mason: 

Yeah. 

Frank Turek: 

Too much prosperity makes you shallow. Too much prosperity makes you me-centered. Too much prosperity makes you more of a me-monster, right? 

Eric Mason: 

Yeah. 

Frank Turek: 

What do we call kids who get everything they want? We call them spoiled. Why? What's spoiled about them? Their character is spoiled because they're getting everything they want. You want to ruin somebody, give them everything they want. We need difficulty in our lives. We need obstacles. We need God to say no. Because if we get everything we want, we're not going to become more like Jesus, we're going to become more like Satan. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

That's a really good point, Dr. Turek. I want to ask you guys real quick, but I want to preface this in terms of… Because both of you guys do a lot of work, and I'm here in school, like I mentioned at DTS. And I'm studying a lot of contextualized theology in terms of giving questions or presenting the gospel in ways that people can understand in their current climate or culture. Dr. Mason, Urban Apologetics, I think you would agree, is a contextualized version of apologetics. 

Eric Mason: 

Mm-hmm. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Dr. Turek. You recently wrote a book with your son, if I believe, on Hollywood Heroes, exploring the phenomena of movies and how that relates to our faith. First, how important is it to be able to give answers to people in their context, the questions that they're actually asking? But also, can you talk about a little bit about your thought process behind those two works that you guys did? 

Eric Mason: 

Yeah, so I think the Bible does it. From the beginning of the Bible, Genesis was written as an apologetic to the Mediterranean, right? So if a lot of… That's why people say, is Christianity a copy of these particular things? Because the writer of Genesis knew the questions that was happening when he was inspired to write Genesis. So fundamentally, that encourages me because the Bible is fundamentally an apologetical book from the beginning. Most books in the New Testament were written in response to false doctrine, right? I mean, most of them. When you look at 1 and 2 Corinthians, it's written in response. Not all of them, but most of them were written. 

So I believe that when you're saturated on some level, and I'm not saying everybody has to run around and be an apologist running around the street, what I am saying is, the Great Commission could be translated as you go. So when persons in the marketplace, and they're at lunch, or they go on a business trip with colleagues. Or a person is working the night shift and they come across opportunities to interact with people who don't know Jesus Christ on their workplace or in their third places, as we call it in missiology. The third place is the place where you want to be, where you hang out at. Like the pool hall. Back in my day, it was an arcade, but mall, whatever you're doing today. And you come across people and you start engaging them with the gospel, those questions naturally come up. 

And it's necessarily… For very practical reasons, for other people. Some people, you may come across questions you might not be able to answer. And one of the things I want to encourage people to do is, don't feel like you have to know the answer at that point. Put gospel, and the Word of God between you and them, not you between the gospel and them. And so when it becomes more about reaching them, and not being right all the time. And you begin to learn how to, can I get answers for these questions? Then what you begin to do is, you be… that's how you grow really strongly in your faith, in your fundamentals and your ability to share the faith, when you're dealing with issues as they come across your spiritual desk. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

That's good. Dr. Turek, what question were you trying to answer in your book, Hollywood Heroes? And then also if you could add on to what Dr. Mason said about how important it is to just be able to give answers to the questions that people are asking our culture today. 

Frank Turek: 

Well, it turns out that the top movie franchises of the past 50 years have all stolen from the greatest story ever told. The story of Jesus. And particularly the superhero genres. So whether you're talking about Iron Man, or you're talking about Captain America, or Batman, or Wonder Woman or Star Wars or Lord of the Rings or even Harry Potter, Harry Potter, are you kidding? Yeah, Harry Potter was taken directly from the Bible. I know she's got a lot of hocus pocus stuff in there, but Harry Potter is a Jesus figure in that story. 

Eric Mason: 

Wow. 

Frank Turek: 

And she even admits it, J.K. Rowling does. And so what we do in this book, Hollywood Heroes:How Your Favorite Movies Reveal God, is we show people that all of these heroes are patterned after Jesus in some way. And what does Jesus do, that is the ultimate act of love and the ultimate act that these superheroes do, and that is they sacrifice themselves. 

Eric Mason: 

That's right. 

Frank Turek: 

Jesus sacrifices Himself to save people from evil. That's what Jesus does. So the last chapter is, who's the ultimate hero? And that's Jesus. So there's a lot of life lessons in the book. There's a lot of stories in the book about how what you see on the big screen is actually stolen from the story of the Bible. And so if people like Iron Man, or they like Harry Potter, or they like Batman, they're going to love Jesus if they understand Jesus properly. And so that's what the focus of the book is. I want to go back to something we were talking about a little bit before about too much prosperity, and we point this out in the book as well. Dr. Peter Kreeft said this. He said, "The point of our lives is not comfort, security, or even happiness; but training. Not fulfillment but preparation. This world is a lousy home, but it's a fine gymnasium." 

So when you're going through difficulty, just as Paul says in 2 Corinthians 4, "That our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us a greater weight of glory that far outweighs them all. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, for what is seen is temporary. Fix our eyes on what is unseen, what is unseen is eternal." When you're going through difficulty, you're being prepared to enjoy God and His creation, not only now, but in eternity. And so it's training, it's not fulfillment, it's not comfort, it's not security, it's not happiness. But those are all the things that a lot of people think If I become a Christian, I'm going to become comfortable, and secure, and happy, and rich. No, you might, but that's not the purpose. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

So that's a good segue because one of the things I've been thinking about in terms of apologetics, especially with just the role you two have played in my own life, it helped me mature a lot in terms of thinking through my faith, helping me make my faith my own. And also just kind of like you were saying, Frank, really seek my Christian walk in a new light. And so one question I've been tossing around with my professors here and also just friends, how can apologetics be seen as also a tool for discipleship? 

Eric Mason: 

Yeah, again, I would say most of the New Testament is that, right? 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Mm-hmm. 

Eric Mason: 

And so I believe that, you see Jesus with His disciples doing that all the time. And His discipleship of His disciples was multidimensional, it was auditory, it was olfactory, it was tactile, and it was visual. Whether we know it or not. Before we had classes, like at DTS, and I know that The Hendricks Center and Christian Education Department, they teach how to teach with all the senses, hook, book, look and took. I remember it all, right? But Jesus involved their senses. And one of the things that was beautiful about Jesus's discipleship in the life-on-life format that He utilized is, He did apologetics while they were apprenticed to Him. 

You got to understand, Jesus, Pharisees coming up to Him. He's trying to get trapped constantly. And I just think that the Bible shows that disciple makers can defend the faith in the context of relationship. I love it… When I'm sharing the gospel with someone when my kids are with me. One time I was in Times Square, and they're trying to sell you everything at Times Square. If you've ever been to Times Square in New York, you got 50,000 people trying to sell you something. So this one guy starts trying to sell something, and my wife just briefly starts sharing the gospel with him. 

And so he began to get a little disrespectful, but engage her. And he began talking about the fact that the Egyptian Mystery System and Christianity. And I saw the ankh around his neck, so I kind of knew already. And so my sons were standing there, and I began to ask him different key questions about just the medu-netjer, and all these different things that he's into. And my kids were there watching, and they talk about it. That experience of them being there, seeing the faith defended, emboldened them in their commitment to even want to do it as well. 

I'm into the whole old school. We do prayer walks in the city here. And so what we do is 20 of us, a hundred of us hit the block, and this is a city. And so we go out and we just say, "Hey, is there anything I can be praying for you for?" And that opens the door so many ways for us to begin developing people. Because it's not enough to have a discipleship or apologetics class. You got to get people in the actual field interacting with actual people. Because your nerves are different and your nerves affect your memory. 

I'm telling you right now. And in these streets, you can get a gun pulled on you. So there's all kinds of stuff you can get dealt with. So I think that we have to begin to… we have to get back to Paul says, "The things that you have seen, and heard, and learned in me. Practice these things." In other words, it was verbal, but it was also modeling. So that's big for me when it comes to discipleship, particularly when it comes to apologetics. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

That's great. Dr. Turek, do you have anything to add? 

Frank Turek: 

Well, I appreciate what you're doing in Philly. Because Philly's a hard neighborhood, man. Where are you doing that in Philly? 

Eric Mason: 

North Philly, two blocks from Temple University. 

Frank Turek: 

Two blocks from Temple, all right. Up near the zoo then, right? 

Eric Mason: 

Now the zoo's in west, it's more close to University City. It's not too far from here though. But this is close to Center City, but it's the hood. It's the hood/kind of gentrifying, but it's kind of a economic melting pot somewhat, but it's a lot of transient residency here. 

Frank Turek: 

Well, it's a great way to open, to say, "Is there anything I can pray for you for?" Very few people are going to say no. 

Eric Mason: 

Right. 

Frank Turek: 

Or they're just going to keep walking, right? They're not going to… So you start that way, and then you learn something about them, and you're caring about them, and that's a good way in, I think. But yeah, apologetics for discipleship, as Eric was already mentioned, in this culture, you just can't go to people… Well, you can, but more often than not, you're going to need some answers rather than just going at them with the Bible. They're going to start asking questions, and you got to be able to answer them. And Jesus is a master at this, as you pointed out. He would question the assumption behind their question. 

Eric Mason: 

Absolutely. 

Frank Turek: 

He did this so much. I'll just give you one that happens a lot here in America. People will say, "Well, I can't believe the God because He did X, Y or Z in the Bible. He killed the Canaanites. He's against LGBTQ behavior," whatever it is. As soon as somebody says that, you need to ask them, "By what standard are you judging that to be wrong?" Because if it's just their opinion, it's not really wrong. But if they're appealing to a standard beyond themselves, that's objective. That's really true that we're all obligated to obey. That's what we mean by God. So they're appealing to God while claiming God doesn't exist, or claiming that the God of the Bible isn't the true God. So always ask people, "What's your… You say you've got a right to this. Where do rights come from? They can only come from God. If there's no God, there are no rights. It's just your opinion against somebody else's opinion." 

Eric Mason: 

Right. 

Frank Turek: 

And so when you do that, it… Now people may get defensive, but you're just asking questions, right? You're just saying, "Hey, where do rights come from? What's your standard? Where are you coming up with this?" They get backpedaling pretty quickly. And before somebody's going to accept your worldview, they got to begin to doubt their worldview. And the way you do that is you ask questions that show that they can't defend their worldview. Now maybe, maybe they'll be open to yours. 

Eric Mason: 

Yeah. Right. That's good. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

That's good. This can go to either one of you. But Frank, you were just talking about, or Dr. Turek, you were just talking about kind of the approach to apologetics and asking questions. My question to either one or both, when you guys are doing apologetics, how do you balance? Because I'm in a class right now, and we're learning about Old Testament historicity, and some of the ideas about maybe Moses not writing all the words or textual variance when you study the New Testament. Some of that can be unsettling for a new believer or someone who's just learning about this for the first time. And my professor says, he always says, "We want to solve problems, not create them." So how do you balance sharing new information, giving apologetics, but knowing that sometimes this information can shake people's faith? At least the answer is their purpose- 

Frank Turek: 

People might have their faith shaken by what you just said, is because they had the wrong assumption going in. They think that inspiration can only be of the people who wrote the original document down, and it couldn't be any editor later. Well, who said that, right? 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Mm-hmm. 

Frank Turek: 

Obviously Moses couldn't have written his death in Deuteronomy, so somebody else penned that in there. So what's the problem with that? If God inspired the person to write down Moses's death, even if it wasn't Moses, it's still inspired, right? 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Right. 

Frank Turek: 

By the way, from an apologetic standpoint, you don't even have to get into inerrancy. You just have to show that Jesus rose from the dead. If Jesus rose from the dead, game over, Christianity is true. And then you can show people that the Bible is inerrant, not because I can answer every alleged contradiction, but because Jesus who predicted and accomplished his own resurrection from the dead is God. And if He's God, then whatever He teaches is true, He said the Old Testament was the Word of God, and He promised the New Testament. So look, I just have a personal policy. If somebody predicts and accomplishes his own resurrection from the dead, I just trust whatever the guy says. 

So if Jesus is God, and the evidence just from an historical perspective is that He is God, that He did predict and rise from the dead, predict and accomplish His resurrection, then I'm just going to trust what He says. You don't have to believe in inerrancy to be a Christian. You're just disagreeing with Jesus if you don't believe in inerrancy, and that's never a good place to be, be disagreeing with Jesus. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

That's right. Dr. Mason, do you have anything to add to that? 

Eric Mason: 

Yeah, I think most people's disagreement with just the Bible being authentic, right? 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Right. 

Eric Mason: 

It's fundamentally moral. Then the intellectual stuff's just used as a way to kind of justify the morality, right? 

Frank Turek: 

Right. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Mm-hmm. 

Eric Mason: 

In my experience, and so it's kind like before we get to the nitty-gritty, what's your beef with God? You know what I'm saying? What's your beef with God? If you're beefing with God, what's fundamentally your beef about what He's saying? And then you begin to ask questions, right? And you begin to ask… And as you begin to ask questions, you unravel it. And it's fundamentally this, because I didn't… Listen, I heard the Bible was changed before I became a Christian, a billion times. But it wasn't me being convinced that the Bible was inerrant that helped me to come to Jesus. 

And I'm not saying those things aren't important to talk about, the Codex Vaticanus. I'm not saying those things aren't important. I'm glad for the Dead Sea Scrolls and all of that, right? I just think that we have to begin to, like Dr. Turek was saying earlier about Jesus, what's the question they're asking behind the question? And they asked Him a question that you know they're asking behind the question to get to the heart of the matter. Because a lot of times… And sometimes that takes time, that's the other thing. One conversation isn't going to rescue someone. You know, many times, it's going to take some groundbreaking work, and it's okay to take time to get to that. And maybe one conversation just accomplishes one thing, or partially part of one thing, but I hope people would endure in it as we do the work of an evangelist. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Right. Yeah, and what I'm hearing… Oh, go ahead, Dr. Turek. 

Frank Turek: 

I was going to say it's a really good point that Eric just brought up about it's not usually a one-time deal. This is a long process. Think to the last time when you weren't a Christian and you became a Christian. Probably it didn't happen in one conversation, did it? It was a long period. 

Eric Mason: 

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Dr. Mason, when you're answering your church members' questions, in terms of the things you were saying, what I'm hearing is you're saying that our faith is a lot bigger than some of the objections that people may have. But also I was hearing you say we need to be rooted in the fundamentals. What would you advise someone who's interested in apologetics? Where should they start? 

Eric Mason: 

Yeah, so first off, they should start with being saved. Number two, they should being a part of a healthy local church where they are learning the fundamentals, and in an environment, right? One of the things that I do for people is, I don't give them all the answers all the time. I just finished teaching my whole church, Bible Study Methods, took them through Bible Study Methods. And when they ask me questions, I make my people read. So I have FAQ kind of resources to help them. So whether it's Charles Ryrie's Basic Theology, excellent. Whether it's The Moody Handbook of Theology, excellent. Whether it's Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology, excellent. 

I try to get people connected to learning fundamental Christology, learning their Christology. Who is Jesus? What did He come to do? Trinitarianism. The categories that our THM classes, our Systematic Theology classes are broken into. I try to get them in contact with accessible resources on that. Because for me, when I shepherd people, I want them to own their sanctification process. I want them to own their walk with Jesus Christ. And so I want to teach them different things, but I know that I can't teach them everything on a particular subject matter. So what I try to do is I really try to resource them. And usually, people go get them and try to work through it, which I think this context we're in, people… 

Even though we were talking earlier about how much false teaching out there, how much itching ears is out there, there's a significant remnant out there as well that's hungry, that want to be equipped in this crazy world to be able to remain steadfast in their own faith, but then encourage others in their faith and bring people to the faith. 

Frank Turek: 

That's a very important thing you're doing there, Dr. Mason, that I don't think many pastors do, and that is teaching people how to interpret the Bible. You would think if we really thought the Bible was the Word of God, that'd be the first thing every church would do. But we don't. You notice that? 

Eric Mason: 

Yeah. 

Frank Turek: 

We actually have an online course, How to Interpret Your Bible at CrossExamined.org because some few churches do that. It kind of baffles me as to why that is. 

Eric Mason: 

Wow, wow, wow. Yeah, I think it's so important. I've been really… This is a good point you made. And one of the things I try to do as a shepherd when I'm preaching and teaching is weave the fundamentals into everything, right? So that it's not just me teaching on Christology. So if I'm going through… And what helps me is books like Greidanus' book on Preaching Christ from the Old Testament, his stuff is amazing. And he talks about everything from longitudinal things, compares and contrasts, redemptive historical theology, typology, all of the different mechanisms of interpreting Christ. So what that helps me as a shepherd do, as I'm preaching through the Bible, no matter what text I'm in. Jesus said, "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you find eternal life, but they all speak of me." Jesus basically said, the Bible is one big Christology, all throughout the Bible. 

And so I need to be preaching Him as I'm teaching on marriage, as I'm teaching on singleness, as I'm teaching on drug abuse, as I'm teaching on finances, whatever I'm teaching on, how do I weave the beauty and glory of the redemptive historical story of the death, burial and the resurrection of our Savior in it? And show them how it's applicable in every area of their life. I think it's important. 

Frank Turek: 

Yeah, that's outstanding. What was that resource you mentioned? 

Eric Mason: 

Preaching Christ from the Old Testament. It's amazing. 

Frank Turek: 

Preaching Christ from- 

Eric Mason: 

By Greidanus. 

Frank Turek: 

All right. I'm going to look that up. Yeah, I love that kind of stuff. That's so important. I also heard this summary of the Bible, which I find very helpful. This is an overall summary in three statements. "God created it. We broke it. Jesus fixed it. God created it. We broke it. Jesus fixed it." That's really the story of the Bible- 

Eric Mason: 

I like that. 

Frank Turek: 

… if you think about it. And so if Jesus is fixing it or He did fix it, but the new heavens and earth hasn't been created yet, we're still going to have some effects of the old world. We're still going to get sick. We're still going to die. We're still going to have trouble. We're still going to be persecuted, but the future is guaranteed. 

Eric Mason: 

Absolutely. 

Frank Turek: 

That's what predestined means. It doesn't mean you don't have a choice. It means that it's guaranteed that you're going to be glorified if you're a believer. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Amen. Well, just to wrap up, I had a quick couple of questions. What do you guys see the future of apologetics? I know you guys mentioned that some of the questions now are more morality based, but also we live in a information age where people can get a lot of… I have access to a lot of different either helpful or harmful information. So what would you see the future of apologetics is going? And that can be to either one of you. 

Eric Mason: 

Yeah, I would say I just think the future of apologetics… I think God is distilling the church down. A lot of churches are going out of existence. A lot of lampstand removal and things like that. I believe God is distilling the church right now down to a remnant. I really believe that. Bible says, "Every branch in me that bears fruit, I prune it that it may bear more fruit." I believe the future of apologetics, to be honest, it's going to be a very serious faith from those who are really real believers who are committed to being unstained by Jezebel, as Revelation says, until Jesus Christ comes. 

I really believe that, and I see it happening. There's some young guys that are coming up that I'm really encouraged by their commitment, men and women who are committed to Jesus Christ. And I believe that's what's going to happen. I mean, it's always going to be… I think it's going to get worse, but it's also God doesn't let bad get as bad as it can get, and He always has a remnant to fight against that. So that's what I believe. I just believe it's a continuation of what's been happening, to be honest. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Okay. Dr. Turek. 

Frank Turek: 

And I also think that in the past, say 50 years, apologetics has really grown quite a bit, especially in America. Because as I say, 50, 60, 70 years ago, you could just open the Bible and most people would assume it's true. Now it's the opposite, and that's why you've seen an explosion of people out there speaking the truth, making arguments for Christianity. I mean, in the modern era, Norman Geisler was sort of the Michael Jordan of apologetics for a while. He wrote so much that a lot of people have been derived from him, myself, one. But other people more prominent, like William Lane Craig. And of course, before he fell, Ravi Zacharias was big. 

Eric Mason: 

Yeah. 

Frank Turek: 

And there's been a lot of people that have come off that so-called coaching tree. And there's just a growing need for making arguments for the faith when the world is hostile. The easiest way to get picked off in a war is to not know you're in one. And a lot of churches are out there, they don't know we're in a war. At least they don't think we're in a war, and that's why 75% of young people walk away from the church once they leave the home. Because they haven't been equipped to go out into a world that is warring against Christianity. We need to equip particularly young people with the truth, with the answers, so they can not only survive but thrive in a hostile world, a world that is against Christianity, and that's what apologetics does. 

Eric Mason: 

Amen. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Amen. 

Eric Mason: 

Amen. Amen. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Well, guys, we're just about out of time, but I would like to give you guys the opportunity to both give some resources to our listeners. If you can think about church leaders, pastors, and also just people who are interested in apologetics, what resources would you recommend? 

Eric Mason: 

You can start. 

Frank Turek: 

Well, we've got a website, CrossExamined.org, and everything that we do, you can get to from that website. We also have a podcast called, I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. We do two of those a week, usually on apologetic issues. We have a TV show that you can access from our website. It's also on the NRB Network. We've got over 2,100 videos on our YouTube channel. Most of those are from the college campus. A lot of them are Q&As from the college campus, so you can check all that out. The YouTube channel is CrossExamined. Of course, we're on Instagram, Twitter, all those other places as well. 

Eric Mason: 

Yeah, recommend of course our resources, Urban Apologetics, what we have, our organization called Thriving. You can go to thriveinthecity.com and download the app as well. We have a podcast that we're going to be starting to film, people been on me forever doing a podcast. So we're finally doing a podcast. It won't be merely apologetics, but it will deal with apologetics issues at times. It'll be coming out this fall. It'll be coming out this fall, about to start filming in the next few weeks our first series. But I also have some other friends out there, Damon Richardson with UrbanLogia, Jerome Gay with the Urban Perspective. Just some good folks out there that are doing some wonderful, wonderful and great works. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Great. Well, thank you. Dr. Mason. Thank you, Dr. Turek. It's been a pleasure talking with you guys. 

Eric Mason: 

Appreciate it. Appreciate it much. 

Frank Turek: 

Thank you, Jeremiah. God bless you. 

Jeremiah Chandler: 

Yep, man. Thank you our listener for being with us today. If you like this show, you can leave a rating or review on your favorite podcast app, and then you can join us next time as we discuss the issues of God and culture, and show the relevance of theology to everyday life.