Global Perspectives: The Church in Haiti

Speaker 1: 

Welcome to the Table Podcast, where we discuss issues of God and culture. Brought to you by Dallas Theological Seminary. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Welcome to the Table Podcast, where we discuss issues of God and culture. My name is Kymberli Cook, and I'm the assistant director at the Hendricks Center. Today, we're going to be continuing our tour around the world of churches and our brothers and sisters in Christ, and hearing what they're rejoicing in and what they're weeping over. We are stopping today in Haiti. We are joined by Christian Jackson, who's here with me in studio. So thank you for being here, Christian. 

Christian Jackson: 

Hello, hello. Thanks so much for having me. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yes. 

Christian Jackson: 

Grateful to be here. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Christian is the founder and executive director of Y-Knot Missions. He is currently a DTS student in the THN program. 

Christian Jackson: 

Yes, yep. I am. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Which is a challenge. 

Christian Jackson: 

It is, it is, but it's great. 

Kymberli Cook: 

But a good one. 

Christian Jackson: 

Yep, it's been a blessing. 

Kymberli Cook: 

And Dukens is actually an alum of DTS. Dukens St. Phart is the dean of students and a professor at the Evangelical Theological Seminary of Port-au-Prince. When did you graduate, Dukens? 

Dukens St. Phart: 

I graduated in summer 2021. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Okay. I was going to say, I thought it was really soon. It was not very long ago. 

Dukens St. Phart: 

No, not very long. I have around six months in Haiti. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Okay, fantastic. Well thank you so much for joining us here, Dukens. We really appreciate your time. 

Dukens St. Phart: 

It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me. Thank you. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Absolutely. Just to get us rolling, I think it would be great for everybody listening to hear the work that you both are doing and have done in Haiti. And specifically, where you're located and kind of orienting all of us to your work in the country of Haiti. Then we'll talk about the actual country in a bit broader sense in a little bit. But Dukens, why don't you start us? Where are you located and what work do you do in Haiti? 

Dukens St. Phart: 

Okay. Currently, I'm living in the capitol of Haiti, which is Port-au-Prince. I work as a dean for students at the Evangelical Theological Seminary of Port-au-Prince. So STEP Seminary, for short. I teach as a full-time professor. My wife and I, we host a radio show. It's an evangelical, I would say, broadcast about the family. It was in 19 radio stations, some of them in the USA and others in Haiti. So since we came back, we don't start recording yet. But the place where I am now is a place that we are trying to setup in order to continue to record the broadcast. 

Dukens St. Phart: 

I'm involved in [inaudible 00:02:57]. My wife and I, it's our pleasure to have the students at home. We have fellowship with them, we eat together, we visit with them in their ministries. And we go, in order to support, in the sense that we speak for them at the conferences and so on. Yeah. The big picture is this. 

Kymberli Cook: 

What specifically do you teach? 

Dukens St. Phart: 

I am teaching now Daniel and the revelation. I teach as well, church administration and theology. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Okay. Fantastic. Wow. 

Christian Jackson: 

Awesome, awesome. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So the gamut, you teach a lot. 

Dukens St. Phart: 

Yeah. 

Kymberli Cook: 

All right Christian, let's turn to you. Where do you work? Obviously you're not currently located in Haiti. 

Christian Jackson: 

No. 

Kymberli Cook: 

But where do you work in Haiti and what work do you do there? 

Christian Jackson: 

Yeah. So we are in Cap-Haitien, Haiti, which is in the northern part of the island, the second largest city in Haiti. I started Y-Know in Oklahoma State out of a nonprofit management class, at the ripe age of 20. With really no idea what we were doing. It started out as sport camp, so we were doing sport camps all throughout different villages in the north to what it is today, it's now an integral ministry approach, as far as we have schools, we have English schools, livestock exchange, pastoral training. We also have microfinance and an English school. 

Christian Jackson: 

Every village that we're a part of, we partner with the local church and with the pastors to really build up the church and work alongside of the church. But also we have a Haitian team in Haiti. The reason I'm able to do this here, and be here today, is because we have an excellent, excellent team in Haiti that's completely Haitian run. So the ministry's continuing every single day because of our great team in Haiti. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Now, are you Haitian by descent? 

Christian Jackson: 

I'm not. I get asked that all the time. I wish I was Haitian, because I feel like it would make it easier sometimes. But no, I'm not Haitian. Maybe one day, I'll find that down the line or something like that. But no, no Haitian blood that I know of. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So what led you specifically to the ministry in that country? 

Christian Jackson: 

Yeah. The first time I ever went to Haiti was in 2015 on a short term mission trip. Literally had no idea what we were going to be doing. No idea really what a mission trip was. I just saw it at church, and I thought, this is something I can do on spring break. Sure, I'll go. But really felt every emotion. Out of all the facts and statistics about Haiti, the thing that is the most jarring to me and that just makes me sit down every single time is that it's only 90 minutes south of Miami. 90 minutes south of Miami, and it's a completely different world. So I felt every emotion. Sadness, frustration, anger, joy, and hope that this doesn't have to be this way. 

Christian Jackson: 

Felt all those emotions and thought, okay, there has to be something I can do. So changed my major to nonprofit management, and then that's how I started it. Yeah. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Okay. Fantastic. All right. Well let's talk a little bit about the country itself, just so that the people listening, I'm going to be honest, I don't know that I, personally, know a lot about Haitian history. So that means that probably a lot of the other people who are listening might not be familiar. Just talk to me first, and Christian, maybe you can start us out here. Talk to me first a little bit about the population. Just the size and what is the makeup? Are there different groups? 

Christian Jackson: 

Yeah, for sure. 

Kymberli Cook: 

What does it look like? 

Christian Jackson: 

Haiti is about the size of Maryland. There's 11 million people. 51% of the population is under the age of 25. It's a very young country. The reason it's young is because the healthcare system of what are we going to do after that? And how are we really developing the adults if we don't have the adequate health supplies and things like that? Another really cool fact is it's the first freed slave country in the world. It's the first successful rebellion from the French. So from there, they have built the country. 

Christian Jackson: 

Another thing that I have to add, and it would be really troublesome not to mention, is that there was a tax that the French put on the Haitians in the 1820s that was 90 million at the time, which is now upwards to, in today's money, $21 billion that they had to pay. That is where you see a lot of that poverty coming from, is that they did not finish paying that tax until 1947. So having to continue and pay that money, continue and pay that money, which is what we see a lot of the poverty stemming from today. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Interesting. 

Christian Jackson: 

A lot, I know, sorry. 

Kymberli Cook: 

No. 

Christian Jackson: 

I threw a lot at you right there. 

Kymberli Cook: 

No, that's all right. Dukens, what else would you like to add with regard to the population and the makeup of the Haitian people? 

Dukens St. Phart: 

I think that Christian said it almost all. I would like only to add that Haiti is so small, it is 24 times smaller than Texas. We are located very, very, I would say, close to Florida. As he said, 90 minutes or less than 700 miles away. We share the same island with the Dominican Republic. We are the western side, they are the eastern side. There is a huge difference between the Dominican Republic and Haiti. Actually I've never been there, but I've heard about them and I see what they are doing on TV, a lot of things. 

Dukens St. Phart: 

This day and night difference doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense. It's a very challenging situation for people that are living in the country right now. 

Kymberli Cook: 

The language situation, I'm assuming French is at least part of it. Is it solely French? Or what other languages are present? 

Dukens St. Phart: 

Yes, we speak French and Creole. I would say we speak Creole and French. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Okay. 

Dukens St. Phart: 

Because Creole is spoken by everyone in the population. But 90% of people speak Creole and around 10% speak French. People that speak French, they are educated. If you are not educated, it will be difficult for you to speak French. Even people who are educated, some of them don't speak French because it's a difficult language. You need to grow up speaking French in order to speak it fluently. There is, I would say, a few exceptions. But in general, that's the way it is. 

Dukens St. Phart: 

But there's another thing that I need to add. French is a prestigious language in Haiti. If there's a prestigious ceremony, you don't speak French, it lacks something. So that's the way it is here, and in some places if you go, you don't speak French, they will not take you too seriously. That's a challenge in the country. It creates a sort of difference between people that are in the upper class and people that are on the lower class. That's the reality here. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Interesting. Wow. That's interesting. I understand at least what you're talking about with it being a difficult language because I had to learn it a bit for my studies, and it is a beating. I agree, you have to grow up in it to really appreciate or be able to handle it. 

Christian Jackson: 

Yeah. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Okay. So let's talk a little bit about the economics and the government. We talked a little bit already about the economics with regard to the tax and the poverty that I think is largely, tragically what people think of when they think of Haiti. 

Christian Jackson: 

For sure. 

Kymberli Cook: 

And so are there any other dimensions of the government and just things going on with regard to that that people should be aware of that's going on? 

Christian Jackson: 

For sure. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Or is the tax one of the main things? 

Christian Jackson: 

I'll let Dukens chime in on the government side of it, I'll stay out on that side. But as far as the economy and the poverty, Haiti is the poorest country on the western hemisphere and about 80% is under the poverty line. The average income is $2.50 a day. It is very, very hard to make money in Haiti and to keep the job. And also a lot of the economy is trade. It's marketing. It's really, really tough, especially, too, if you break that down and like Dukens was saying, with French being the prestigious language, the average education level's at an eighth grade level. You kind of just have all these hula hoops that you have to jump through, if you will, in order to try to get to the next step, in order to try to get here, in order to try to better yourself in that sense. 

Christian Jackson: 

It's really, really hard financially to get ahead. But also just to maintain and to stay stable. It's a very, very tough environment. And then I'm sure as a lot of people know that are watching this, that Haiti does get a lot of government funding from a lot of different countries, at least it did in the past. But because of past governments and how they've handled those funds, they're no longer getting that. Money is a very, very tricky thing in Haiti, simply because it is a scarcity in a lot of places. You can say, "Hey, we're going to bring it here, and the government's supposed to do this with that here." And it actually never happens. 

Christian Jackson: 

So there's this really big tension that starts to happen. But in order to find at least in Cap-Haitien, I'm not too familiar with how it is in Port-au-Prince, but your best jobs are going to be at the airport, and they're going to be at the cruise port, and they're also going to be at a few of the restaurants that are there. Everything else is kind of a lot of entrepreneurship type jobs that you're going to have to create. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Dukens, what would you add? 

Dukens St. Phart: 

I think Christian is saying a lot of things that are not only true for Cap-Haitien, they are true for Port-au-Prince as well. There's a lack of jobs, and people that have means in order to sustain their lives or take care of their families, they have business, they invest in people that are working in the airports, they have a little thing in the ports, the port ships. That is one of the source that people rely on in order to earn a living. Some of them, they do just a public market on the street, they sell things. Very difficult situation. 

Dukens St. Phart: 

And now, about the political situation, it's very bad. I think that we are in the worst period in our history in Port-au-Prince. Because one of the most dangerous places in the Caribbean, and people are being killed on the street, there is kidnapping. They are kidnapping people in their houses. You can see in some videos on the street how the kidnappers, they stop their cars and get out and take people and pull in the car, and just go with them, as if it was something that was legal. 

Dukens St. Phart: 

The police, they cannot even fight the gangs. There are some places where some people cannot even pass some roads, that people cannot use. It's a very challenging situation. I would say all the aspects of the political [inaudible 00:14:53] of the economy [inaudible 00:14:57] as well. This is something that needs a lot of [inaudible 00:15:00]. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yeah. 

Christian Jackson: 

Yeah. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yeah, wow, that's amazing that you stepped into that, having graduated and went back, and braved that in order to minister. 

Dukens St. Phart: 

Yes, for some people it doesn't make sense. But when God calls you to do something, it may not make sense for people, but you just feel it. You get, as a special way, to plant in your heart what he wants you to do. My wife and I, we believe that you can have peace, you can have joy, when you are where God wants you to be and when you are doing what he wants you to do. This is why we came back to Haiti in the worst period in the history of the country. We qualify the DPS, that DPS is not the motivation. Because what is important is what is about God scheme, not our controls. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Wow. 

Christian Jackson: 

Yeah, that's awesome. 

Kymberli Cook: 

With all of that in mind, with regard to what's going on and more about the country and even the semi-current state of the country, politically, economically, one other thing, I think, and this will turn us toward talking about the church and the state of the church in Haiti is what is the religious situation in Haiti? What are different religions that are there? Is it mainly Christian? Is it mainly atheist? What religions are you dealing with when you're ministering there. Christian? 

Christian Jackson: 

Yeah. Well Voodoo is a huge, huge, huge religion in Haiti and it's also a huge cultural practice, that it's so intertwined in the culture that you're kind of brought up in it, and you're going to the festivals, and you're doing this, and we're going to go to this Voodoo ceremony without even really acknowledging what it is. That's a huge thing that we're constantly up against. You can feel that darkness over you as soon as you land, and it's there all the time. You see the Voodoo temples everywhere. 

Christian Jackson: 

I was actually in Haiti this past fall and we were in a village and there was the day of a huge Voodoo festival, it was my first one. Not being a part of, but we were on our way to the village, and everybody was coming from it and just realizing of, oh my gosh, how big this actually is. If you actually look at Haiti tourism and things like that they'll say, "Come to Haiti and see the Voodoo and come experience it." Even at the cruise port they have certain sections where you can come and see it. 

Christian Jackson: 

It's a really big thing and it's one of the things that "sells" because it's very unique. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Distinctive. 

Christian Jackson: 

But people don't really realize what they're dealing with. Also what we're seeing in the north is there's starting to be a big push of Islam that is starting to make its way over to the north. There's a few mosques that are being built right next to us. I mean, we're really having a huge battlefield, if you will, and it's also a norm to say that you're a believer. But it's really, I'm a believer, but I also went to the mosque yesterday and I'm going to go to the Voodoo temple today. So it's one of those, what is an actual believer and what are we actually dealing with? 

Kymberli Cook: 

Okay. Dukens is there anything you would like to add? 

Dukens St. Phart: 

Yeah there's this kind of syncretism in the country, that are believers, some of them still practice the Voodoo. Because it is kind of rooted in the culture, and people even say that it's our identity. They say even if you are at the church, you can practice it. This kind of syncretism is not only between the Voodoo and the west, there's the same thing between the Protestant and the Catholic church. Because some people, when they don't go to church at all, they say that they are Catholic. And Catholic even, they are not the majority but they are very powerful in the country in the sense that they are influenced, politically speaking, they have a voice that the Protestant churches don't have. 

Dukens St. Phart: 

We have the practice of the Catholic on one side and the practice of the Voodoo on the other side. They are kind of the same and people justify that they practice both at the same time. But there are some things that Christian said that is important, so amplified. It's the idea that many people are Protestant, they're believers, but they still practice the older things. This is something that we have in the culture, people are saying that they are a believer but just by name. They don't live out the gospel. 

Dukens St. Phart: 

Because we have so many believers in Haiti. After 2010, they said that almost half of the population claimed to be believers. In the half, we have the majority that were Protestant and the minority Catholic. But if we look at the situation in the country as a whole, we don't really see the impact of the gospel. We have a lot, in this sense. We are not saying that the believers are the ones that need to change the country. But we are saying that we don't see how they impact the darkness that is prevailing in the country. 

Dukens St. Phart: 

This is a big challenge, this is something that we fight every day for. And I think that I have an opportunity to reach the new generation because they are the ones I believe that will use in order to bring about that change in this area. In the area of putting into practice what we are learning, what we know. Put the action with the word. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Fascinating. You have Islam and you have Voodoo, which I want to come back to in a second. Then you have syncretism of those with Protestantism and then you also have essentially cultural Christianity and the mix in between and all of the different ways that that can be combined. With regard to Voodoo, just for those who are listening who might not be very familiar with that religion, would that be the same as an animism kind of religion? Or is it its own distinct belief system? What is the Voodoo religion? You don't have to practice it or anything. 

Christian Jackson: 

For sure. 

Kymberli Cook: 

But can you guys just describe it? Dukens? 

Dukens St. Phart: 

Yeah. The Voodoo is a religious practice. People are so scared, the Voodoo with all kind of spirits. Those who practice in the Voodoo, they say that they are not bad spirits, they are not evil spirit, they are there just to make good to people. They can consider some trees as being inhabited by evil spirit and they worship the tree. In this sense, it is kind of animism. They're feeling there are some bad spirit that they need to call on, call on the bad spirit in order to tell them what they need to do, in order to let them know how the situation would be for their family. 

Dukens St. Phart: 

For example in December, most of the time, they have special ceremony in order to have the spirits tell them how will be the next year? People encourage, even believers at the church, in order to go to the bad spirit, even if you are a good church, if something happens, you don't know what is it exactly, you can either send someone for you or you can go in order to know what is going on and to do what you are supposed to do. 

Dukens St. Phart: 

It is something that many people are trying to make as if it was something that everyone in the country must practice. This is what basic. In fact, many people do it. Even if they don't do it formally, they do it in some respect in the way that they practice the gospel. 

Christian Jackson: 

And to add on that, too, what we see a lot in the village that we work with of people are doing it for financial gain. I'm going to pay this spirit in order that I get a lot more in return. I'm going to do this for this spirit in order that I can have more money, in order that I can buy food. If you get down to the root of it, it's extremely heartbreaking of you talk to people of why are you going to this? What are you doing this for? What's the reason? And why? Money. I've got to pay for my child's school fees, I have to pay for the rice and beans, I have to do this. 

Christian Jackson: 

They'll go to these links in order to have, I guess, an opportunity to be able to receive financial income if that were to come. That's what I've seen a lot of the motive is for the people in the more remote villages that we're working with of we just want financial gain, we want to be able to have some money coming in. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Let's narrow in a little bit on at least those who say that they are believers. I get that that's 50%. But let's go in on whether or not they're what we might consider true believers or practicing believers or whether they're cultural Christians. Those who you might end up speaking to about Voodoo and encouraging them to live out the truth of the gospel and live in the power of Christ rather than in these other spirits, what do you say to them? What is the way that the church in Haiti and you all as leaders there, especially Dukens, you are training leaders who are addressing this. 

Kymberli Cook: 

How do you combat that practically, theologically? What do you all say? 

Christian Jackson: 

Yeah. 

Dukens St. Phart: 

Okay. One thing that I emphasize a lot is the connection with Jesus Christ, first. This is my starting point. I evangelize on most every day. I am in the gas station, and the person that is serving me, I always ask, do you have a relationship with Jesus or a personal relationship with God? That's the first question. Because if you ask them if they are believer, they will tell you, "Oh yeah I am." Or, "I go to this and that church." But when you ask them, "Do you have a personal relationship with Christ?" This is a pertinent question. And sometimes, they tell you the truth. 

Dukens St. Phart: 

If they're already a believer, they will tell you, "Yes, I am, and I go to this church. And I am baptized." They will tell you automatically the reality of their spiritual life. Now if they're not the believer they will tell you all kind of things and give you some excuses in order to start the conversation. But okay, this is one point. Another point is to emphasize what does it mean to be in a relationship with God? Sometimes, I use the picture of adoption to explain that. I am adopted in the family of God. Let's say that I am, I was part of your family, and now Christian adopts me, I emphasize the fact that you have some rules for your family. And Christian has some rules for his family. 

Dukens St. Phart: 

Given that, I am changing my master right now, the new master requires me to live according to the rules of his household. This is what we need to do as believers. We cannot live just like the other people, we cannot continue on practicing the Voodoo things. Because now, we don't belong to the same master. We belong to another master. Now we do not live this way just to belong to the other master. But we will live this way because we belong to the other master. That's the way I try to explain it in order that people may let me know that okay, now, I don't belong to the Voodoo. It's not my identity. 

Dukens St. Phart: 

My identity is in Christ, I am adopted by God, and I need to live the life of God right now. This is one way that I explain it. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Especially, and I want to hear what you have to say, too, but almost the idea that challenging, because from what you all have described with regard to Voodoo, it's this idea that you have to give and try to convince the spirits and all of that kind of thing. So the gospel here represents, to a degree, a measure of rest. Like you said, Dukens, because we are in his household, we act this way, but we don't have to act this way so that we can be in his household. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Christian, what would you add? 

Christian Jackson: 

I think what I say when I add to it is that, the hope we have in the gospel. That Haiti is not our home. Though you may live here, your passport may say that you're Haitian, our citizenship is in heaven and that is a global family. People in the States, people in Jamaica, people in the DR that believe in Christ, we will all be in eternity one day together and that if I'm very clear when explaining the Gospel, when explaining the life we have in case of that, that does not mean all of your problems are going to go away. That our organization, we're doing a lot of things, but there's no way we're going to be able to fix all of the physical depravity that is in this world. That's not our job. 

Christian Jackson: 

We can help alleviate some of it, but there's no way of we're doing this thing, then three months later we find out, there's this other problem you've got to solve. But we can say, you can have all of these things, you can have all the money in the world, you can have all of the supplies, you can have the biggest house, all of the cars. But at the end of the day, if you're not eternally satisfied, then it doesn't matter. Really to explain that a relationship with Jesus is enough, that Jesus is enough. That it doesn't matter at all what anybody else is doing, it doesn't matter what's happening in Port-au-Prince, it doesn't matter that you're living like this right now. 

Christian Jackson: 

But that Jesus will restore it all, and that is our hope, and that is the hope that we have in a relationship with him. And that it doesn't matter how much you have in your bank account, it doesn't matter your education level, that Jesus loves you the same, just as much as the next person. And that he died in order for you to have life with him regardless of what you've done. To really let them know the freedom that we have in Jesus and the hope we have. Just being transparent of that, it's not going to be perfect from here on out, of the prosperity gospel's really big in Haiti. 

Christian Jackson: 

But to say, "Hey, I want you to accept Christ and I want you to join the movement with us, but we can't fix everything." I wish I could give you this and I wish we could do this but that's not the reality. But the reality is that you're going to know Jesus and that you're going to grow, and you're going to be sanctified, and you're going to be with a body of believers, and that is so much better, that's so much sweeter, than anything we can do as an organization, than anything that the world can offer you. 

Christian Jackson: 

And to really just let them know that regardless of what the world says about Haiti, because we all see the news media, we all see the headlines of that, God still loves you and that you're worthy and you're valued regardless of what everyone else says. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So I'm hearing some of the challenges that the Haitian church is specifically facing is syncretism and prosperity gospel. 

Dukens St. Phart: 

Prosperity gospel, yes. Lack of sound teaching of the doctrine. Yeah. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Lack of doctrinal teaching. Are there any other major challenges that the church seems to be facing right now? I mean, economic situation as well. 

Christian Jackson: 

One of the biggest things that we get whenever we're meeting with pastors is it's really hard to minister with people, whenever they're saying, "Well you're saying all these things but I don't have a house. You're saying all these things, but I don't have money for food. You're saying all these things but I don't have money to put my kids in school." So they say, "Christian, in order to help us proclaim the gospel more, can you give us some money in order that we can do this?" It's, that's a worthy ask, I get it, I understand it, to an extent, right? I'm not Haitian, I never have grown up in that environment. 

Christian Jackson: 

But it's one of those of that's kind of the blockage. You're saying all these things, but I need these things first. And to really get people to understand that we need spiritual health, we need spiritual wealth, if you will, more than we need the physical things. And yes, the physical things are important, we can't ignore that, but we have to address the spiritual first and we have to address the spiritual that the gospel is our response to meeting someone's spiritual need and the gospel is our reaction to meeting someone's physical need. 

Christian Jackson: 

That we can't separate them but the spiritual has to come first and that's the relationship with Christ. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Interesting. Dukens, do you have anything to add? 

Dukens St. Phart: 

Yeah, this is a big challenge because when people come to our church, they expect our church to meet their needs, their material needs, and sometimes that they're hungry and you oblige to do something. It's a challenge because of the general state of the country. Political situation affects the developing economy situation. And the economical situation of the country as a whole affects the church, then many people come to the church, not to feed their soul but to feed their bodies because that's the place where they can address, at least that will give them ears to listen to what they have. 

Dukens St. Phart: 

When they cry to the government, when they protest on the street, they don't take care of that, they are being killed, they don't have money to send their kids to school. They cannot take care or feed their children. They talk about these things, nothing is done, so they rely on the church in order to do something. And if they see that you come with some foreign or some people from the USA, they have hope because they know that you will hand them something. 

Dukens St. Phart: 

I remember that we went to the south after the earthquake of almost '14. We went with some friends, some partners, and the USA, in order to see what is going on, how we can come along in order to reach the population, to build sustainability. But they did not care that much about these things, they wanted something concrete, just give them money. They say, "Okay, I understand what you are saying but look, see where I am living? And the house, you see that it is broken. I can not continue on living the way I am. So you need to give us money or you need to build us houses in order to stay." 

Dukens St. Phart: 

This is a challenge because not many churches can address these needs. Even if the churches would have money, they could never satisfy all the needs. So this is a big challenge. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Fascinating. 

Dukens St. Phart: 

And in everything, we believe that the spiritual needs to come first because it will impact peoples' hearts, it will change peoples' heart and mind, and that will affect their actions as well and the progress will be evident in all the country. 

Kymberli Cook: 

While we still have just a smidge of time, I don't want it to be all doom and gloom. I understand, and I asked you the challenges. We want to hear the heavy things so that we, as believers, can be praying for the Haitian church and hoping to address in any way that we can all help. What would you say are, I'm going to combine two questions that I had, the victories of the church that you've seen, and/or what do the Haitian believers have to offer their brothers and sisters around the world? The perspective. What do they have to teach us that we haven't learned or that we can't learn? Christian, let's start with you. 

Dukens St. Phart: 

I would say … 

Kymberli Cook: 

Sorry Dukens, I'll close with you. Christian? 

Christian Jackson: 

Yeah. I think the two biggest things that jump out to me, the first one is commitment. Commitment of the Haitian church, the church that is actual believers, is committed to Christ. They are committed to making them known, and they are committed to serving him, regardless if they don't have all the things to do that, right? If they're going to make a way to do it. We don't have a drum, but we have water bottles. We don't have guitars, but we're going to make something else. We don't have electricity, so we're going to do it right in the middle of the day. They are committed. 

Christian Jackson: 

They don't make excuses for why they can't do this. Well, we don't have a camera so we can't go online. They will make it happen. I think the thing that I admire about them is how committed they are to the lord and to expanding the kingdom. But also just not making excuses, just getting it done, of this is how it is so we've got to move forward. I think the second part on that that I love is the community aspect of one of the most beautiful things, I'll never forget my first time to Haiti, we were in a youth service, and again, youth service. So it's all these kids. 

Christian Jackson: 

There was only a few chairs so I'm thinking okay, only 5 or 10 kids are going to get a chair. They actually flip the chair on its side so that a child can sit on each leg on the actual seat of it and on the back. So it sat six or seven kids. I just think that's one of the many examples of how they have each other's back. Of even though we may not have much, I'm going to share it with you. And really break bread with my neighbor, and really get to know my neighbor, and that we're all in it together. 

Christian Jackson: 

Another thing just to use that example of that. If you have a meal, especially whenever we bring over missionaries of you give them a meal and it's going to feed one person, they share it with everybody. I just think of it is definitely a family mindset, a community aspect mindset, of I want to include everybody that's around me and that no one gets left behind. I think the US church, the western church, the church as a whole can learn what real commitment looks like, but also how to actually love your neighbors and to serve your neighbor as well. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Dukens, what would you say? 

Dukens St. Phart: 

Yeah. I would say that one thing is endurance and adversity. Even if the situation is bad, the kidnapping is bad outside, they don't prevent people from going to the church. When you go to the street on Sunday, you will see a lot of people going to the church to worship. They go even to visit their brothers and sisters that are in difficult situations. They have this endurance, and even if they don't have gas to put in their cars, some of them, they just walk. Even just with the gas prices, they walk. To fulfill their duties at churches. 

Dukens St. Phart: 

The other thing is a sacrificial [inaudible 00:40:38]. In order to keep going, to keep running the race, when I'm saying that I think about our students. They come to the seminary, they cannot even find transportation to go back home. But they still come. It is encouraging to see how they come from very far in order to learn the word of God, to know more about God in order to share it with other people. Because the idea is that when you know more about that, when you know better about him, you can serve him better. They are trying to get this in order to go to other people, to embrace the same spiritual mindset. 

Dukens St. Phart: 

These are encouraging things. All the bad situations, bad things, things that we can cherish, we can praise God for. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Well we could absolutely fill 35 minutes of the bad things with the American church. It's everywhere. We all have our strengths and our weaknesses. Gentlemen, I just want to thank you so much for your time and your willingness to be here and educate those of us who are listening and just give us a chance to better understand our brothers and sisters in Haiti, better pray for them, better minister to them, and equip them. So Dukens and Christian, thank you so much for joining us. 

Christian Jackson: 

Thanks so much. 

Dukens St. Phart: 

Thank you for having us. Thank you. 

Kymberli Cook: 

And we just want to thank you who are listening and if you enjoy today's podcast, please be sure to follow us wherever you listen to podcasts, and join us next time when we discuss issues of God and culture. 

Speaker 1: 

Thanks for listening to the Table Podcast. Dallas Theological Seminary, teach truth, love well.