Reflections on 10 Years of the Table Podcast

Follow Dr. Mikel Del Rosario on his Web site ApologeticsGuy.com, YouTube Channel https://youtube.com/apologeticsguy, and listen to his new podcast on the Christianity Today Network, The Apologetics Guy Show. 

Voiceover: 

Welcome to The Table Podcast, where we discuss issues of God and culture. Brought to you by Dallas Theological Seminary. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Welcome to The Table Podcast, where we discuss issues of God and culture. My name is Kymberli Cook and I am the Assistant Director at the Hendricks Center. And I am not intimidated at all, that means I completely am, by being at the table hosting with every single other host for this podcast. This is a really weird feeling. 

Mikel Del Rosario: 

This has never happened before. 

Kymberli Cook: 

I know. And yeah, it's odd. You all are so engaged as guests already because you're hosts. So today, because of this unique setup, we are going to be taking a little bit of time to celebrate 10 years of The Table Podcast, which it hardly seems could be, it just seems like it went so fast. But yeah, we have been on air for 10 years and we would just want to recognize the work that the Lord has done through this ministry and also just give you an opportunity to hear a little bit about what goes on behind the scenes here at the podcast and a little bit about the guests and lessons that we've learned along the way. The hosts that is, not the guests. 

Kymberli Cook: 

But for the sake of maintaining formality, with us today are Darrell Bock, Executive Director for Cultural Engagement and Senior Research Professor of New Testament. And as I was writing that out, I realized I have never actually been the one to completely say the whole thing. So there you go. 

Darrell Bock: 

It happens. Yeah. 

Kymberli Cook: 

It's like a hazing ritual. Also here is Bill Hendricks, Executive Director for Christian Leadership and President of The Giftedness Center. As well as Mikel Del Rosario, who is our Project Manager for Cultural Engagement. So thank you so much, gentlemen, for joining us today. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Thanks for hosting us. 

Darrell Bock: 

Exactly, right. 

Mikel Del Rosario: 

Good to be here. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. It's a long time no see. 

Kymberli Cook: 

I Know, right? So an introduction as far as walking through, "Hey, how did you get involved?" And all of that seems a little bit odd, especially for those of you who have listened for so long and are familiar at least with some of our voices and some of our stories. So I think rather than walking through our biography, it might be helpful just to start out with the general question of how you ended up as a podcast host. Because you can be affiliated with the center and not necessarily end up at this table guiding the conversation. So I think that it's only right for us to start with you Darrell as the whole thing started with you. So where did the idea of the podcast come from and how did it come about when DTS wasn't doing anything like it 10 years ago? 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. Well, this is a long story and- 

Kymberli Cook: 

I know, I set time in for it. 

Darrell Bock: 

I guess the short answer to your question is I became a host because I had no choice. In other words, once we decided we were going to do these podcasts on a regular basis out of the center, obviously the podcast had to have a host and I was the natural one to be hosting. But before the beginning of the 10 year podcast, there was a long period in which we were doing podcasts on an ad hoc basis, Mark Bailey and myself. The short story is, the day the iPod came out, which now no longer exists. Okay. All right. 

Kymberli Cook: 

They just retired that. 

Darrell Bock: 

They just retired itself, which I hope is not sending smoke signals. But anyway, the day the iPod came out, I was in Germany listening to this announcement and I immediately sent an email to the seminary saying, "This is a great way to stay in touch with alums and to keep them up to date and connect with them on a basis other than the normal way we tend to communicate with them. So what do you think about doing podcasts on a regular basis?" And so Mark Bailey and I said, "Yeah, this is a good idea." So whenever our schedules would coalesce and whenever the Richter scale hit the level of saying, this is something we need to address, we would do a podcast. So that's part one of the story. 

Darrell Bock: 

Part two was in 2010, Lausanne held a global conference in Cape town, South Africa and Dr. Bailey had gone to represent the seminary. And I was in a back room helping with all the coordination of all the external sites from Cape town to get information about what was going on there to these sites. And we held an alumni meeting with about, I guess, around 50 or so DTS alums from around the globe. And Mark asked them a question, "How can we continue to serve you?" And without any hesitation and almost with one voice, they said, "Keep those podcasts coming to us. You have no idea how helpful they are." Walked out of that meeting and said to Mark, "You realize how ad hoc we do this and we only do this when necessary, et cetera? We really could be much more intentional about how we do this, put a strategy behind it, et cetera." And so we're sitting here now. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yeah. 10 years later. 

Darrell Bock: 

10 years later, we're sitting here now putting that intentional approach to podcasting in place. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So tell us a little bit about the intention. What was it that was the intent? So you said, "Okay. So if we do that a little bit more intentionally." Are you talking just time and a regular release or what's the theory behind it? 

Darrell Bock: 

No, part of what was going on is that our society was changing so rapidly, it was actually the basis for why I came into cultural engagement. The Hendricks Center for Christian Leadership has existed since the mid '80s and what happened was, is that we focused on the character of the leader and the mechanics of leading. And that was really the focus. But what was happening is the world was changing so rapidly that a leader in order to lead had to have some sense of what was going on around him or her. And so we wanted to be able to address that. So the cultural engagement piece came in and the podcasts were a way of recording and noting the different areas of reflection and updating, et cetera. 

Darrell Bock: 

And we cover a wide array of stuff as, as people are going to hear. And we never do a series, we always do one piece that can stand on its own. But in the background is our archive, which we are building and have built so that there are topics and series that come out of the way we archive what we do. And so that was the intention. The intention was to deal with the array of topics. Your little opening that, which we have passed on, which is, "Welcome The Table. We discuss issues with God and culture." Whenever I'm saying that in the back of my mind, I'm saying, "Well, this is a short way to say we can discuss anything and everything." 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

And so in that way, we're actually engaged with the array of things that the church faces today in trying to minister to people and disciple the people and trying to carry out the mission that Christ has given the church to perform. 

Kymberli Cook: 

And I feel like over the course of the 10 years, a little bit of the theory behind the podcast has become even more than just the content itself, which is helpful for our alums and our network and all of that and anybody who hopefully stumbles across it but there's also an element of modeling going on, correct? 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Can you speak to that? 

Darrell Bock: 

And we're very committed to the idea that the way in which public discourse has happened in that 10 year period has broken down significantly. And that the way of being Christian and modeling the uniqueness of what is Christianity requires a certain kind of modeling. So for us, the expression is tone matters. And so we are very focused on not only what we have to say and what we believe about it but how we talk about it and present it, particularly how we present it and interact with people with whom we disagree. 

Darrell Bock: 

And so this modeling that we're talking about, we've used the phrase convicted civility, which doesn't mean that we're civilians who've been convicted but it means we have convictions and are civil about it. That's right. So that's how we go about talking about what's going on. We want to stand up for what we believe in on the one hand, have convictions but we want to do it civilly and we want to respect the person we're interacting with as we engage them. And in some cases, challenge them to think differently, think about categories they may not have that they may need in order to understand what it is that Christians believe. 

Kymberli Cook: 

And that might be something interesting for those of you who are listening or watching. In that the way we go as hosts, the way that we formulate how we're going to go about one of our podcasts, part of what comes into our mind isn't just, "Oh, well, let's explore this area." But it's, "Okay. How do we think through this well?" And like Darrell is saying, "With civility and how do we introduce a topic that might be something that some people instantly kick back against? And how do we model what it is to walk through the issue, walk through the theological reflection on it and come to a conclusion that might be similar to a conclusion that other people come to but it's done in a completely different way?" And that's what we're attempting to do. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, for example, if I can just note one topic that we did cover in multiple issues was the issue of world religions. And particularly we were looking at Eastern religion, Eastern people think differently than Western people do, et cetera. In the normal way Christians do world religion is they take the religion and what it believes, they put it against the Bible and they say, "How does it not align?" Okay. That's actually an important thing to do and be aware of. And you can find that in many locations. We did a different take, we said, what is it that this religion believes? What makes this religion tick? Second thing is, what is the Velcro factor in this religion? What is it that makes this religion attractive to someone? Something more than, I was born in this part of the world. But why am I attracted to this particular religion? 

Darrell Bock: 

And the third one is, how does the gospel speak into that Velcro factor? So what we're doing is we're not starting with the information that we have and giving it over to someone else, we're actually trying to understand the person who's sitting across from us, make an effort to do that and then be responsive to what it is that they raise. And so it's just a different kind of directional, as well as atonal piece that really is reflective of the way we go about almost all the topics that we pursue. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yeah. Absolutely. So there you go. If you're listening, that's the first man behind the curtain. 

Bill Hendricks: 

A key part of that strategy, of course, is in selecting guests. There's a lot of people we could have on and I'm sure get a big crowd but we don't have them on precisely because that tone piece would not be there. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yeah. 

Bill Hendricks: 

We want people who can discuss civilly and with a winsome tone. Even if we disagree, we want people who represent and manifest a Christlike spirit that, "I disagree with you but I'm not going to treat you like the enemy. I'm not going to try to destroy you." 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

Or if we're talking with someone about whom, there is a… We may be talking to a Christian about what others believe but it's all done in such a way that it's clear, not only what you are addressing but doing so in such a way that you're staying on the issues, you're not getting personal. There are lots of things that you can do that sabotage conversations and to do so in a helpful kind of way. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Well, this is clearly something that we're all passionate about. But in the interest of moving along, I'm going to go ahead and toss it over to both Mikel and Bill. If you guys want to just chime in as to how did you end up? So we know how Darrell became a podcast host but how did you guys end up? Mikel, let's start with you. How did you end up behind the table? 

Mikel Del Rosario: 

Sure. Well, I was Darrell's first intern at the Hendricks Center when he came over as the Executive Director of Cultural Engagement. And I actually started working on the show right away, just within a couple months that we started recording the show. I was there helping with time coding and transcripts and the things that I supervised are interns, what they do right now. 

Darrell Bock: 

What nobody sees. 

Mikel Del Rosario: 

There's a lot. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yeah, they're about 40 or 50 hours of work for each one piece. 

Mikel Del Rosario: 

There's a lot that goes into podcasting besides just us talking here and then walking away. There's so much that so many people, everything we do, I say we do as a team and that's not just at the Hendricks Center, that's all of Dallas Seminary that's involved in what we do here. But I started hosting because there were some episodes we wanted to do on Jesus topics and we have an expert with us on Jesus topics. And so I think Darrell's first time as a guest, in the guest seat was my first time hosting. 

Mikel Del Rosario: 

And that was when Justin Bass had just debated Bart Ehrman on the question, did Jesus claim to be divine? And so we did a discussion on that as my very first episode. And I'm super interested in that topic even to today so that I even did my PhD doctoral work, my dissertation on looking at a historical approach to Jesus' claim to possess divine authority. So I feel like my time at Dallas Seminary, from THM when I first met Darrell, straight through PhD and even my work on The Table has all just come together so well. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yeah. Interesting. I didn't know that. Bill, how did you end up here? 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, I actually started as a guest and that story is in spring of 2014, I came out with a book on giftedness, The Person Called YOU. And when you write a book, you've got to get as many big names as you can to endorse it. And I thought, "Hey, Darrell Bock's a big name down at Dallas Seminary, maybe he'll give me an endorsement." So I sent him a copy of the book and just like that, back comes an endorsement. And then next thing I know, I get invited to do a podcast on giftedness. 

Bill Hendricks: 

And it was right around that same time Darrell and I had lunch and he asked me, would you… Well, no, we had lunch and then shortly after my predecessor, Andy Seidel and his wife, Gail had invited me over for dinner and in the middle of dinner he goes, "Bill, can I ask you to pray about something?" What are you going to say? "No, I'm not going to pray." I said, "Okay." He said, "Would you pray about coming and working at the Center for Christian Leadership and replace me as the Executive Director for Christian Leadership?" And so I spent a whole summer praying, thinking that through, at the end I concluded, "I don't know that, that's really what God has for me." So I told Dr. Bailey, "No, thank you." 

Darrell Bock: 

That doesn't stop us. 

Kymberli Cook: 

I know. I remember the staff conversations going on at that time, where we were like, "No, he'll come." 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. 

Bill Hendricks: 

In retrospect, I realized that the no, that's when things actually started running, that's when the sale begins. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yeah. 

Bill Hendricks: 

So about a month later, they came back and said, "Would you be the Acting Director?" And that was a little more in line with what I'd been doing plus after all it was my dad's legacy. So anyway, I think I came in late 2014, somewhere in there, early 2015. And for the first couple years, I don't think I was on the podcast but once I realized, "No, this is going to be a more permanent thing." There was a desire to get more hosts, if for no other reason, what happens if something happens to Darrell? And because I was the Executive Director for Christian Leadership, I could bring issues of leadership to the table, which then gets into the integration of faith and work and a subspecialization within that is career and calling, which is my specialization. So one day I got asked to host a podcast. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Host it. Yeah. 

Bill Hendricks: 

So I guess I did well enough, they had me back. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay, Kim, now you've got to tell your story. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So we had been talking about the need for a diversity of voices and hoping to bring in a female voice as just one of the podcast hosts. And so in the staff meetings, we had been throwing around names and that kind of thing. And then it occurred to me that I had theological training and that I would like to talk about some topics and I would like a say in some of the topics that are said. And so at one point I went to Darrell and I was like, "Would you ever think about me doing something?" And then the next thing I knew I was co-hosting and I was sitting behind the table. So Darrell empowering people as usual is how I ended up behind here. So I know how I prepare for podcasts and how I prepare for hosting but how do you guys prepare? Let's start with Darrell, because he's will be short. Darrell. 

Darrell Bock: 

So you want me to say, I don't? 

Kymberli Cook: 

Darrell likes flying by the seat of his pants. 

Darrell Bock: 

We call it The Table. Well, let me deal with the philosophy behind it. We call it The Table because the idea is you're overhearing a conversation that's worth listening to. Well, a scripted conversation's not a normal conversation. So I have a general idea about where the topic is going, I have the rationale for why I've invited the speaker to talk about that topic because of their expertise. But I say to them as well, and this makes some of them nervous. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Oh, yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

Because we get the email saying, "You're going to give us some hint about where we're going?" "We're just going to talk about the topic." And because we want that interpersonal feel, that's actually part of what we are modeling. And so I prepare by having some sense about what the topic is, that kind of thing. If there's a book involved, obviously I'll have read it. But basically I tell them we aren't going to prepare ahead of time, there's not going to be a script, they have some idea usually of the two or three main topics that I want to pursue and that's it. So that's the preparation and then I leave all the clean up to Mikel. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yeah. Bill, how do you? 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, I agree with what Darrell's saying, the counterbalance to it is it's a little bit like if somebody said, "Bill, how long did it take you to write that book?" I'd say, "Oh, about 60 some years." I mean, because so much of it is a life message thing and at least for me, I think back throughout my life, where have I encountered this issue. And the way theology works for me is it's highly experiential, in other words, it's highly biblical. But my point is, I encounter a situation and I think, "What do I know about the Bible that speaks into that?" And then see how the experience with that interplays with the theological truth and it followed away. And then we come to a podcast and I go, "Oh yeah, I remember a counter at here and here and here." And so that's what I draw upon often to ask questions. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Interesting. I didn't know that about how you prep. Mikel and I tend to be a little bit more- 

Bill Hendricks: 

By the book. 

Kymberli Cook: 

… intentionally. 

Bill Hendricks: 

By the book. 

Kymberli Cook: 

And maybe it's just because we don't have as much life experience. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, that could be. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Mikel, how do you prep? 

Mikel Del Rosario: 

Yeah. Well, besides reading the person's book, which is always good to do if we're going to have an author on the show to read their book. I also go on YouTube and I try to find other interviews that they have done. Perhaps there's a really good story that came out of another show but I want to know more about that and I know the listeners probably want to know more about that, then I'll pursue that. I'll also try to think about, what does somebody need to know just to get oriented in this topic? And so I'm always thinking about the audience and what do they need to know. 

Mikel Del Rosario: 

And that helps me generate questions, which are going to drive us to a certain place at the end where there's one big idea that someone can take away from it that will help them as they encounter skeptics, their friends who don't believe the same way and be able to answer those hard questions that people have about the faith. So I'm always thinking about the audience and what are those tough questions that people are wrestling with and how can I help them answer those? 

Kymberli Cook: 

Interesting. So what is the toughest topic that you have tackled? So you're talking about tough questions, what is the toughest podcast? Not podcast guest, we're not going to do that but the toughest- 

Darrell Bock: 

I can talk about that a little. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yeah, just the toughest podcast that looking back, it sticks out in your mind as like, "Whew, that one was rough." Or, "I wasn't sure how it was going to come out." What did it look like for you, Bill? 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, I'm afraid I'm going to give away the guest. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Be subtle. 

Bill Hendricks: 

I was asked to host a podcast on, I think it was on beauty. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yeah. 

Bill Hendricks: 

I know that was the announced topic. And a very brilliant guest that I did not have background in the guest's field. So I was challenged to come up with questions that were meaningful because I felt like a child asking some Einstein to explain relativity or something. But somehow we got through it and I got actually compliments on the interview from people and- 

Darrell Bock: 

It was beautiful. 

Bill Hendricks: 

… it was beautiful. So let's just say I was definitely stretched as a host. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yeah, mine was, I mean, you can go find it if you're listening, but what happened to The Trinity on the cross podcast. Oh, because you're dealing with The Trinity and you're dealing with the atonement and it was so technically difficult that it was hard to ask questions because nobody really knows the answer to that question anyway. And so then it was hard to ask questions and explore it without saying something heretical and I was sitting there with two of my theology professors and I was like, "I'm trying to do this." 

Mikel Del Rosario: 

It's one of our top shows. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yes, I know. So it's great. It's had really good feedback but for me it was one of the hardest podcasts that I've done. And I think it was also the first one I did during COVID. And so it was the first one I did via Zoom and all of that too. So there was all of this swirling and then me feeling like in the middle of a hurricane, I have to thread a needle theologically. So Darrell, what about you? 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, I think that the topics that are the hardest are the ones that are hardest for the church. So whether we're talking about race or gender issues, which we've done myriads of podcasts on, they're always challenging because you're trying to balance a lot of different things. You're trying to balance where your convictions are, you're trying to balance where people are coming from, the disagreement that they have by default on the topics, et cetera. 

Darrell Bock: 

And so actually trying to produce something that works is tricky from a host's standpoint of getting people oriented. There really are two kinds of interviewees. What I call the sound bite people, who can boil it down and say it and get it said. And then what I call the footnote people, which means you ask a question, they give you all the background before they finally get to the answer. Obviously podcasting is really friendly to the soundbite person but sometimes the detail of the topics and complexity of topics require someone be a footnote person in order to really help you unfurl what's going on. 

Darrell Bock: 

And so that can become a challenge as a host in terms of how you deal with that. So I don't have one because we have explored both of those topics for a variety of areas because our tendency is to dive into a topic and then we take five minutes out of the one that we've done and say, "Ooh, you know what? That needs more." And then redo it with a focus on that particular point. That's how we build the archive. And yeah, so that's mine. 

Kymberli Cook: 

And we do tend to give you the more difficult ones, we're like, "And Darrell is going to do this one." 

Darrell Bock: 

Thank you very much. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Mikel. 

Mikel Del Rosario: 

Well, for me, I think it would be a tie. One, just like Darrell was talking about, some topics where I feel I'm very much of a learner still is the race conversation in America because as many people know I did not grow up in the United States. And so I say, "I play American really well." But I moved to California as an adult to attend college but I grew up in the Philippines. So the American race conversation is something that I'm very much of a learner still and I approach that as a learner. And so I did a show on race but what I did with it was I called it Diverse Views on Multicultural Conversations. And what we did was we had people around the table and we got to approach this conversation from an Asian-American perspective, from an African-American perspective, from a Hispanic, Mexican-American experience. 

Mikel Del Rosario: 

And then incidentally, we found out everyone around the table were either interracially or interculturally married. So that was pretty cool. But that's a great one where I have questions, I'm always thinking about what's the audience's question. Well, in this case, I am part of that audience too. Especially coming from the Asian-American side, are we just supposed to sit and watch our black and white brothers and sisters talk about this or are we a part of this? That comment about, sometimes I feel like a ghost in the room. So that was challenging but I got a really good amount of positive feedback on that show. The other one that was at tie was, I'll say it, Mark Belton. He was a speaker at Leaderboard and I was asked- 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yes, that faith and work, right? 

Mikel Del Rosario: 

I was asked the day before because I think everyone was out- 

Darrell Bock: 

Which enhanced your preparation. 

Mikel Del Rosario: 

Yeah. So you know how I say, I listened to their other interviews, all this? 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yeah. 

Mikel Del Rosario: 

I did all that in a span of a morning by attending Leaderboard, listening to him talk, generating my own questions, thinking about what would the audience want to know? How can this help people? And we had a great conversation. It was a good show. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yeah. I think sometimes they do end up being your best ones because you're just a little bit more intentional about it. But yeah, that's interesting. Okay, so Mikel let's stay on you real quick because you are the guru person actually, truly behind the scenes of the podcast. What are some of the most downloaded podcasts? What are some of the most popular podcasts? 

Mikel Del Rosario: 

So a lot of theology shows, we mentioned The Trinity on the cross show and I can give us say the shows that have had about 3000 plus downloads since the pandemic. My interview with Mary Jo Sharp on deconstruction, that was a big one. The world of the Bible with Michael Bird was another 3000 plus download. My interview with Costi Hinn on how he left- 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yeah, that one was huge. 

Mikel Del Rosario: 

… he left his uncle Benny Hinn's, what he called a cross between the Royal family and the mafia, that whole lifestyle of riches and the whole prosperity gospel movement, how he left that. And reading a Chuck Swindoll book was part of his story so what a great guest to have on the Dallas Seminary Table Podcast here. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yeah. Very cool. So what was a podcast that you all walked into and it was fine and you were interested and you were ready to have the conversation but you ended up more impacted than you maybe thought you would headed in? There was something that happened in it that really dug in and personally meant something to you. So I'll start because that's a memory question. To give you guys time, I'll start. Mine was a podcast that I did on Haiti. So we were talking about different countries, we have a series essentially that where we're going all throughout the world, talking to Christians who are actually in country about what's going on with the church and what they're facing and what they can contribute to the global church and what we should be learning from them. And so I did this one on Haiti. 

Kymberli Cook: 

And I don't know why but it was just so impactful. I didn't really know a lot of the history as to Haiti's poverty and so I was struck by that. And then I was struck by just the way that the leaders there have had to think so deeply about meeting spiritual and physical needs and I think that's something that they have a lot of wisdom to contribute to us. And I mean, in their humble way, that wasn't even the thing that they said they felt like they could contribute. But it was something that I was thinking because they've had to face it in a very tangible way where they say, "We cannot feed everybody. We can't help everything." And so for me, I walked away from that just with this whole new appreciation for the country and for those leaders and just that general area. Who wants to hop in with a story? 

Darrell Bock: 

I've got two. One is the one we did on artificial intelligence with Fuz Rana and just all the things that are coming down the pike that in most cases, most people haven't even thought of or dreamed of. So I entitled the podcast about, Here's the rest of the story and some of it you haven't even thought about. And then the second one is the one on blended families with Ron Deal. And how pervasive blended families are, how we don't have structures of ministry that really deal with the dynamics of what happens in a blended family. Where the mother figure or the father figure isn't the biological mother or father, that kind of thing. The mixture between the kids that, that ends up producing if you're bringing in kids from two different families into a new family, that's why it's called blended. And all the issues that raises and his observation to me that fully one third of an audience in any church is probably made up of some kind of a blended family, which just blew me away as a statistic. 

Kymberli Cook: 

And the implications of that for the church and for ministry and for training. I mean, because we're all here at DTS and for training people headed into ministry and we don't really talk about it all that much. 

Darrell Bock: 

Exactly, right. 

Kymberli Cook: 

And so it's a major thing. Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, exactly. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Interesting. Mikel and Bill, do you have one? 

Bill Hendricks: 

I interviewed a gentleman named Tom Tarrants who grew up in the Deep South and as a teen, he began to get exposed to ultra right-wing, basically racist ideology and basically got recruited by the KU Klux Klan to be a terrorist. And so they put him and another operative in a car on their way to, I think they were going to plant a bomb or something. And somebody higher up in the Klan organization, I think had a beef with him or was jealous or something, basically tipped off the police. So just as they're getting ready to plant this bomb, the police surround their car, they take off, there's a chase in which the person he was with got killed and he somehow escaped with his life barely. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Promptly was convicted and put in prison, I believe it was Alabama or Mississippi Federal Prison and he's in solitary confinement and he's still very convinced of his convictions. And you think about somebody like that, how in the world would the gospel ever possibly be able to reach him? And I remember in the middle of the interview, just thinking of the dire, desperate isolation that he's in and, how did you get here? And you realize the grace of God was able to penetrate even solitary confinement. In his case, he had a lot of time on his hands, they had a prison library that he could check out books and he began to read and it led him to the philosophers, to Plato and others and then ultimately began to read the New Testament. 

Bill Hendricks: 

And when he got to Jesus and he's reading that story, the spirit just said, "You need to pay attention to this." And it ultimately led to his salvation. And then through an amazing set of circumstances, God just worked various people to come in and ultimately he was not pardoned, but I guess the sentence would be commuted or something. And he gets out and today he goes around the country appealing to, again, extremists that they need to change their ways, they need to come and see Jesus' forgiveness and Lordship. But the ability of God to work where humanly speaking there is no hope and yet God finds a way. It just was an amazing story. 

Mikel Del Rosario: 

Yeah, for me actually, I think the most standout episode was not one that I hosted but I was here behind the glass with the studio staff and it was a show called Freedom from Pornography. And we had Josh McDowell on the show, he was in by Zoom. And few people know that Josh McDowell has this whole history where he was abused as a child and how he is really passionate about showing the effect of pornography on truth. And I love this because it was so impactful, I actually pulled this clip to share on my Instagram that as an apologist, he says, "I'm not fulfilling God's calling on my life if I don't show how pornography is affecting truth. Because I believe that one of the greatest barriers to kids coming to Christ today is pornography." 

Mikel Del Rosario: 

And then he shared the statistic that just blew us all away, he said that he spoke at an event and crew did a survey of 485 students who came to Christ after his talk. And the question was, what is the number one barrier that's in the way of you becoming a serious disciple of Jesus? And he said, "You'll never believe it all 485 students said pornography." 

Kymberli Cook: 

Oh, wow. 

Mikel Del Rosario: 

It was a powerful moment and we had other guests on the show and one of them cried on the show. And from behind that glass, I could feel the emotion in the room. And I thought this is a good episode. Wow. 

Bill Hendricks: 

And you hosted that, Darrell?. 

Mikel Del Rosario: 

Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Very cool. Yeah. So if you're listening, that's a list of what we feel are some of our better ones or at least the most impactful ones, maybe they'll be helpful and impactful for you. 

Darrell Bock: 

There's so many. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Okay. So one last question, to a degree, that we'll chat about in just thinking about the podcast in general, what would be your hope for the podcast for the next five to 10 years? 

Darrell Bock: 

I think we're still trying to figure out how to utilize the resource that it represents. I'm teaching class currently and we are utilizing the podcast in the classroom in a way that I haven't tried to do before. And it really has become a classroom catalyst for some pretty good conversation. Because you've got a good, meaningful conversation sitting in front of you, you've got an exchange of views and trying to, in some cases, create understanding and that triggers questions for students and moves the questions along. 

Darrell Bock: 

So one of my hopes is that we could figure out a way to make the podcast usable, not just as something to listen to as you're commuting from point A to point B, but in either context of Sunday School, classes or in your own personal reflection, et cetera, using it as a means for really doing some serious reflection and teaching. Part of the reason we do it the way that we do it is to generate that reflection to not just instruct. And this is more than just the facts, ma'am, this is not just what is being said but how it's being said and how it's being engaged. And so our hope would be to create some reflection for that. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Mikel, what would you say? 

Mikel Del Rosario: 

Yeah, I think I would say that for those who are engaging in these difficult spaces, that they would adopt more and more of the ethos that we're trying to share on the show by the guests that we bring. Not only the expertise from our professors here and the expertise of our guests but really the way in which we go about having those conversations. That would be something that the church and Christian higher education, even Christian high schools, would be able to take some of our episodes and incorporate that into classes, into different training sessions that people do. Not only in apologetics but all across all these difficult conversations that we're having. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Bill. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, they stole the two good answers. I think I would say, I would hope that the podcast encourages people to, what I call, do theology. Theology is not just about stuff that happened 2000 years ago, it is about that. But theology is actually happening in real time as we as believers encounter in many cases, somewhat unprecedented realities that come our way that nobody had to grapple with before. But as the slogan says, we discuss issues of God and culture, which is just about everything. And I think Dallas Seminary has a tremendous heritage in helping people go from the Bible to life. In other words, observation, interpretation application, here's what the text says, here's what it means and here's how it applies to life. Wonderful. But most people, the way they live their lives, they encounter life first and they need to take the opposite move going from life back to the Bible and on the podcast, I think we try to model that. Let's just pick an issue and there's so many, the culture is the gift that keeps on giving, right? 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yeah. 

Bill Hendricks: 

There's so many issues. And ask, okay, from the revelation that God has given us and the history of the theology that we have, how do we speak meaningfully to that issue? And what does God have to say about that? And everyday Christians can do that, this isn't something for ivory tower people. 

Kymberli Cook: 

And so the hope would be that this podcast and modeling it would help people learn how to do that? 

Bill Hendricks: 

Yes. 

Kymberli Cook: 

In their own lives as they're encountering a variety of different topics, not just the ones that we're covering. So one concluding segment, I guess, of this podcast. Mikel, you have had a few interesting months in your professional career. Would you care to update our listeners? 

Mikel Del Rosario: 

Sure. Yeah. For those of you who are listening, in January 2022, I earned my PhD from Dallas Seminary. It's been a long 10 year, I call it my decade in Dallas from the time I first met Darrell, summer 2012, all the way until now. Did the THM straight through PhD. And also I got to start as an adjunct here at Dallas Seminary. And the Lord has always given me a burden for college students and one of the big reasons I came to Dallas Seminary was because I wanted to be a full-time college professor and the Lord has opened the doors for me to be a college professor at Moody Bible Institute. And so as we're recording this, I'm physically present here in the studio but when this is released, I will be an Associate Professor of Bible and Theology at Moody and so I'm moving Chicago very shortly. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yes. And we're so excited for you. Congratulations. 

Mikel Del Rosario: 

Thank you. 

Kymberli Cook: 

And I believe this is your last show, right? This is your last episode. So if people want to continue to hear from you and hear apologetics and everything that you contribute to theological conversations in general, where can they follow you? Where can they keep up with you? 

Mikel Del Rosario: 

Yeah, they can go to my website at Apologeticsguy.com and then also check up my YouTube channel at Apologetics Guy also. All throughout my social channels, you can friend me on Facebook at Apologetics Guy, @ me on Twitter at ApologeticsGuy and follow me on Instagram at Apologetics Guy. 

Kymberli Cook: 

And Mikel will answer. He is all over social media in a really great way, in a really effective way. So in the last couple minutes that we have, Bill and Darrell, I thought I would ask you all, a little bit in tribute to Mikel, what do you feel like Mikel has brought to the podcast and that you're specifically thankful for as the directors at the center? 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, he's been the podcast guy. I mean, all things podcasts I go talk to Mikel. You have worked hard to develop that expertise and not just in theory but you're a practitioner. And I'm a Boomer, podcasting is a little bit, technologically speaking, after my time in a way. But you've obviously brought that expertise to us and the rest, as they say, is history. And I just don't think the podcast would be what it is today, I know it wouldn't be what it is today without you behind the scenes doing all these things that make it what it is and get it to who needs to get it. 

Darrell Bock: 

So if you develop a second ministry, we'll call it Podcast Guy. And yeah, the other thing that Mikel has brought is that when we were going through and we've had several discussions in this regard with regard to race, where we alluded to this earlier when he talked about the ghost imagery, where in the midst of having a discussion, we'd spent a lot of time on the black, white issue and that kind of thing, particularly in the United States. And Mikel raises his hand and gets our attention and says, "I feel like a ghost in the room. I feel like I'm a minority but I'm not in this conversation." And immediately as he said it, I knew he was right. And so it's helped us in thinking through the race conversation to recognize that when we discuss race and minority issues, first of all, minorities come in all shapes and sizes, depending on where you are in the world, which is important for the church to realize because the church is a global church. 

Darrell Bock: 

And then the second thing is when you talk about race and minority, it isn't just a one-on-one discussion, it's one and many. And oftentimes we don't think of it that way. So that's a gift that you've left to us, a guy will never see ghosts the same way, when I call Ghostbusters, I'll probably be thinking of you. And so that's important. And then of course there's all the technical expertise, Mikel was the voice behind the organization of all the articles that went to Bib Sac on a quarterly basis, summarizing what was going on with the podcast, et cetera, and highlighting various topics and themes and that kind of thing and weaving together all this material that we have. In fact, we're talking about it being 10 years but I don't actually know how many shows, it's a bad question to ask you off the top of your head, how many shows and how much hours of material do we have after 10 years? Do you know the answer to those questions? 

Mikel Del Rosario: 

Well, today, as of this time that we're recording, at that risk of not being evergreen, episode 499 just went live. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. 

Mikel Del Rosario: 

And so we're over 350 hours of original content. 

Darrell Bock: 

I mean, it's amazing if you think about that and you've been in the mix from the very beginning to that. So that's a tribute to your persistence in your industry and your commitment. So we're very appreciative of what that represents. We're going to miss you significantly, we will stay in touch, I do manage to get to Chicago every now and then. And we really do appreciate what you've meant to the center. 

Mikel Del Rosario: 

Thanks, Darrell. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yes. Thank you so much for your ministry, Mikel. 

Mikel Del Rosario: 

Thanks, Kym. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Again, like Bill said, the podcast wouldn't be what it is today without you. And so hopefully the people who are listening and who stuck with us through this whole podcast, because we know some people don't. 

Mikel Del Rosario: 

I will say that I think God really has done something very special with this show because this is a very unique show. In one way it's very unique is that we have four hosts who are usually not at the same table at the same time and it hasn't hurt us. And in fact, I think it's drawn a variety of kinds of people who connect with us, who connect with the topics we discuss and who connect with our personalities. And just on audio downloads, we're getting close to almost a million downloads at this point. And 10 years, not a lot of podcasts can say that. And so that's really a testimony to what God has been doing through this show. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Awesome. Well, our time is more than up so we'll need to sign off but thank you, Bill, Mikel and Darrell, Darrell, Mikel and Bill, for your time and for this walk down memory lane. And thank you Mikel especially for your ministry here, you will be missed greatly. 

Mikel Del Rosario: 

You're welcome. Thanks so much. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yeah. And thank you for listening. And if you enjoy today's podcast, please follow us wherever you listen to podcasts and come back next time when we discuss issues of God and culture. 

Voiceover: 

Thanks for listening to The Table Podcast. Dallas Theological Seminary, teach truth, love well.