Understanding Different Views of the End Times

Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative by Sam Storms 

Kymberli Cook: 

Welcome to The Table Podcast, where we discuss issues of God and culture, to show the relevance of theology to everyday life. My name is Kymberli Cook and I am the assistant director at the Hendricks Center. And we are so thrilled that you have joined us today. And as we talk about the various different views, Christians hold on the end times. Here we go, gentlemen, here we go. We are joined by two particularly qualified gentlemen who have dedicated their lives to studying the scripture. We have Dr. Sam Storms, who is author and president of Enjoying God Ministries. Sam, thank you so much for being here with us today. 

Sam Storms: 

Good to be with you. 

Kymberli Cook: 

And then we're also joined by the ever popular, wonderful, my boss, so I have to say nice things, Darrell Bock, executive Director for Cultural Engagement and senior research professor of New Testament here at DTS. Thank you for being with us on this table. 

Darrell Bock: 

You did that beautifully, Kym. Just keep going. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yeah. There's probably a few more titles we could add in there. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, don't go there. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So, let's let you get to know these guests a little bit better. Gentlemen, if you wouldn't mind telling us just a little bit about yourself, and particularly how you ended up being buried in the Book of Revelation and different other kinds of apocalyptic literature. How did you end up thinking about the end times? So, Sam, let's start with you. 

Sam Storms: 

Okay. Well, I think I started thinking about it seriously when I was a student of Dallas. I think I'm a little bit older than Darrell. I got my Th.M. in 1977. Darrell, what year did you graduate? 

Darrell Bock: 

79. You were a grader in the classes of my Acts of Jesus. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Was he really a grader? 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. 

Kymberli Cook: 

That's awesome. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, he can claim the elder's role and I'll respect my elders. Okay? 

Kymberli Cook: 

I love it. 

Sam Storms: 

Really, when I came to Dallas, I was a fully dispensational pretribulational premillennial, and the first kind of push in another direction came in a class on the Greek exegesis of Ephesians. I had Dr. John Grassmick as my professor, and we were assigned a paragraph in Ephesians. And just arbitrarily, I now would say providentially, I was given a chapter two, verses 11 to the end of the chapter. And that just stirred my thinking about the relationship between Israel and the church and this idea of the one new man, how Gentiles are now brought in as co-heirs and members of the Commonwealth of Israel together with the people of Israel. 

So, that began to kind of erode very slowly, some of my dispensational thought about the distinction between Israel and the church. I still maintain the views that Dallas promotes, until I graduated. It really wasn't until the early 1980s that my view began to change a little bit more. So yeah, I left Dallas, I pastored in Dallas for a while. I got my PhD at the University of Texas at Dallas and just progressed from there. Became, I guess, amillennial in about 1982 or 83, initially wrote a book defending it and decided not to publish it, which was God's hand saying, no, not yet. And then as I progressed and began to think and study this and interact with other scholars more deeply, I finally published my book. I've got it right here, Kingdom Come, the Amillennial Alternative. It's a rather big one. Darrell writes big books too. 

Darrell Bock: 

Exactly right. Yeah. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Something about the '70s, huh? 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, we had time. 

Sam Storms: 

Yeah. So, that came out, I can't even remember, like 2013 or 14. So yeah, I embrace the amillennial perspective. I have tremendous respect for all the other views. I think Darrell would agree with me on this that, the one thing that unites us is our belief in the personal, physical, visible return of Jesus Christ to consummate his kingdom. And all the other tangential events that either precede or follow, of course those are the areas of debate and discussion. But our consistent position is that Jesus is coming back, which puts us both at odds with what's called full preterism, the idea that somehow the second coming has already happened in 70 AD, it was a spiritual coming. I must confess, I can't get my mind around full preterism. I don't understand how the judgment happened, how we're in the new heavens and the new earth. Is history ever going to end? I mean, there's so many questions. 

Darrell Bock: 

It leaves a little to be desired, doesn't it, Sam? 

Sam Storms: 

Oh yeah. It's amazing how many have started embracing that view, but we can get into that later if we want to. So yeah, I pastored for many, many years in Dallas and Oklahoma, taught at Wheaton for four years, left there in 2004 and have been either in local church ministry or writing and speaking with Enjoying God Ministries up to the present day. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Wonderful. Yeah, and if the listener are a little confused as to all of the terms that he just used, don't worry, we're going to unpack all that. Darrell, what about you? How did you end up thinking through this. 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, after Sam was grading my exegetical, I did my work in Aberdeen in Scotland after being at Dallas and with Craig Blaising worked on dispensationalism and thinking about dispensationalism. I too have spent a lot of time in Ephesians 2, in particular in 11 to 22, and basically was wrestling with the question, how does our view of eschatology impact how we think about the church and how we live today? And having an emphasis less on the calendrical aspects, which tends to be what people think about, and more about how does the church being, at least theoretically, a preview of what is to come, indicate how we're supposed to interact and live. 

So, there's an ethical dimension to the way I think about eschatology that is a part of my own thinking. I haven't changed views from when I was a student. I've stayed dispensational, but I have oftentimes commented on certain things that were a part of traditional dispensationalism, that I think weren't a reflection of all that scripture does and says about the end times. And this emphasis in particular on thinking about the impact of eschatology on the present is an example. And Acts 1 is a key passage for me here, because the disciples asked, "Is this the time you're going to restore the kingdom to Israel?" And Jesus's answer was, "That's the father's business. In the meantime, I've given you an assignment to take the gospel out into the world." And so, thinking through that emphasis and that priority is a part of what is underneath what I just said about how I view eschatology. 

Kymberli Cook: 

And that theme, actually, for you listening, that is heavily addressed in a podcast that we have called What You Believe About The End, Shapes How You Live Now. So just, if that's something that interests you and you think, oh, I wonder what that is or what he means by that, a little bit more, then there's actually a whole podcast that digs into that. So, we've established that you all have clearly spent your life thinking about these things, digging into it. And definitely there have been seasons in the history of the church where eschatology is one of the main conversations in certain circles. Other times there, it ebbs and flows a bit, but there's always at least a vein of people who are quite interested and quite dug into thinking through these things, which is good because Christians need to recognize that it doesn't matter whether you've actually thought through it, you do hold some kind of view of the end and it does impact how you are living. It's just whether you've really thought about it or not. 

And the parallel reality, the second reality is that, there are actually a lot of things to think about. So, we've already heard Sam and Darrell talking about, they take two different perspectives and there are a variety of different interpretations. And I don't know, with you listening, if you have dug into this conversation or this is the first time you're ever thinking about these things. But if you were to dig in, you would find that there's lots and lots of conversations. Because there are kind of key interpretational decisions about what the Bible says, that create various views. So, our goal today is to give you a bit of a mental paradigm for all of these views, not necessarily to convince you of any specific one. And I just want to be very clear, everybody, Sam and Darrell included, take scripture very seriously. They love scripture and they are wanting to do justice to what they find in scripture. And a variety of people have seen different nuances in what they feel scripture is saying. 

So, this podcast is talking about the paradigms of how that has been created or we're trying to create a paradigm, for understanding the different interpretations in different ways people have taken what the Bible says about the end. So, with all of that said, first we need to talk about how it is we actually read about these things in the Bible. So, first and foremost, if our listener has never dug into these things, where do we hear about the end times in scripture? What parts of the Bible talk about this and where would they go to even find, okay, this is what this person's saying, this is what this person's saying, but what does the Bible actually even say? So, what passages, what books, where do we find this in scripture? 

Darrell Bock: 

Sam, you want to go first? 

Sam Storms: 

Go ahead, Darrell. 

Darrell Bock: 

We're going to defer to each other. Go ahead, Sam. I'm interested to hear how you'd answer this question. 

Sam Storms: 

Well, it's difficult to find a book or chapter in the New Testament that doesn't bear on eschatology. Certainly, in the gospels, we find Jesus talking about the kingdom of God is at hand and how that kingdom manifested itself, how it came, it was fulfilled but not consummated. So, we see all of those dynamics in the Gospels themselves, certainly in the Book of Acts, as Darrell mentioned, there are several texts that talk about God's purposes as we see the gospel spread out from the Jews to the Gentiles, to the uttermost parts of the earth. 1 Corinthians 15 is certainly a very important passage on eschatology. Galatians 3, in my opinion, is very pivotal. Ephesians 2, boy, I'm preaching through 1 Thessalonians right now in our new church plant, and I just finished, 4: 13-18, which is the fundamental text about the rapture. 

And then just last week or two weeks ago was, 5: 1-11, which talks about the day of the Lord. And then of course, you come into Peter, 2 Peter 3, the New Heavens and New Earth. But obviously we're moving very slowly toward the consummate expression of eschatology in the Book of Revelation and the various views on the Book of Revelation. But certainly we have to take into consideration what Revelation says. And of course there are other texts. You were talking about the ethical impact of eschatology. It's nowhere better seen than in 1 John 3 and 2 Peter 3. 

1 John 3 says, when you set your hope on Christ's return on Him, you are purified as He is pure. And then 2 Peter 3, what kind of people ought you to be in view of the fact that these things are going to happen? So, there's always that ethical dimension that kind of undergirds and moves our discussion of eschatology toward the return of Christ. So, that's generally what I would say. Of course, obviously there's a great deal in the Old Testament as well. The Book of Daniel and Zechariah have much to say about eschatology, but the consummate expression of it is found in the Book of Revelation. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, one of the issues is, and you do, you have a lot of Old Testament texts that talk about what the end is going to be like and it characterizes it in certain ways. And one of the issues that comes up is, how do you actually relate the two testaments to each other as they tell the story of what's coming at the end? And that's where some of the disagreement comes in, because I would say that the various views, put together the way to deal with the progress of revelation in slightly different ways, and that leads to some of the differences that you see. 

But Sam's done a good job. I mean, here's a thought that sometimes throws people a curveball, and that is, we tend to think of the end times as something that's future. But the New Testament actually views us as already in the end times, to certain extent. To the extent that the kingdom of God has come, that the promises have begun to be realized and been inaugurated. We are already experiencing the end times. 

The beginning of Hebrews hints to this, that at various times in various ways, the promise was laid out, but in these end times, it goes on to talk about the Son. And so, eschatology isn't strictly future, although that's how most people think about it. And that's actually one of the reasons for the ethical emphasis, is because if we are a part of the eschaton and we are people who are anticipating what God is going to do, because we're going to be the eventual beneficiaries of what God is going to do, that has a way of encouraging us about how we live now. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So, what would you gentlemen say are the key elements? So, we listed a bunch of passages and that's incredibly helpful for people. But as far as themes that we see kind of popping up repeatedly in those various passages, what are some of the key themes, key things in scripture, that are tended to be interpreted differently? Sam? 

Sam Storms: 

Well, certainly the Olivet discourse, Matthew 24, Mark 13, is it Luke 21, I believe? 

Darrell Bock: 

Yep. And a little bit of 17. Luke splits it up. 

Sam Storms: 

Right. What is Jesus talking about? Is he talking about something that was to transpire in the lifetime of those who were his contemporaries? Or is it referring to a future time of tribulation and persecution? Or could it be both? Which is an intriguing question in and of itself. So, I think that is one of the main issues. And then probably the other one that kind of forces us to really dig deeply is the whole relationship between Israel and the church. And does God have unique and separate purposes for both, or are they somehow unified in God's purposes? And by the way, one other or two other chapters I didn't mention, that people would want to read are, 2 Thessalonians 1, which has probably the most vivid description of the second coming that you'll find. And then 2 Thessalonians 2, and the whole discussion of the man and sin and the things related to that. So, those are two, 2 Thessalonians almost in its totality, focuses on those issues. 

Kymberli Cook: 

And Sam, you just even mentioned, the second coming of Christ itself, and particularly the timing is also something that tends to have different opinions on it, correct? 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, and the challenge here is that, these passages, as is true with actually a lot of prophecy in the Bible, tend to have a short-term and a long-term perspective simultaneously, in which one of the features that I think Sam and I would be in agreement on this, is that there's a lot of what's called pattern prophecy in the Old Testament, that also shows up in the New Testament, where something in the short-term also models what the end is going to be like. Day of the Lord is probably a classic example. You have a locust plague in Joel that is the basis for all the symbolism that talks about judgment. You ask what one of the themes are. 

One of the themes that is shared across the variety of views is, that God will bring justice one day, that righteousness will prevail, that vindication will happen, that evil will be dealt with, all those things. In fact, the key thing about the kingdom of God, before we get to the New Testament, to the extent that it existed in Judaism at the time, was on this vindication idea that God would one day resolve everything. Because in the end, apocalyptic literature, which is this literature about the end, at least in part, was a theodicy. It was explaining how people who were experiencing injustice could suffer through the injustice, with the hope that one day God would resolve everything. So, that's certainly a major theme that shows up, and that theme actually manifests itself across the variety of views that you hear Christians articulate when they speak about the end times. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So, if you're listening and you're like, okay, they're talking a lot, but they still haven't actually talked about views, don't worry, I'm about to intrude. We're about to hop in. But before we do, I want to pick up one other theme that is in scripture pretty consistently and is I think one of the core things, core points of differences in the camps. And you'll know because it's in the name of almost all the camps, is about this thing called the millennium in scripture. So, can you gentlemen, speak quickly, not necessarily to… Just, what is it, where do we see it and why is it debated? Let's go at it that way. Sam, let's start with you. 

Sam Storms: 

Okay, yeah. The primary passage of course is Revelation 20:1-10, where it talks about a thousand-year reign with Christ. And the issue is, when does that happen and how does it manifest itself? I'll let Darrell explain in a moment the premillennial view. My understanding of that is that, the number 1000 is a figurative or symbolic number I think in virtually all other places, Old and New Testament, where that number is used. It's symbolic of a long period, kind of a period of perfection and consummation. So, I understand the millennium to be ongoing at the present day, from the time of Christ exaltation to the right hand of the Father, to the time of His second coming in the clouds of heaven. 

Some amillennialists think that it is expressed in the life of the church now on Earth. That's not the view that I take. I think the millennial reign is what's describing what we call the intermediate state. Those who have died and gone to be with Christ are sharing his rule and reign even now and will do so until he returns to consummate his kingdom at the time of the second coming. So, that's my understanding of what the millennium is. Of course, Darrell can explain how he understands it from a premillennial point of view. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, the term shows up six times in the space of these verses. It's important to say that the term millennium ends up being a label for the period of consummation. Up to the point of revelation, no one knew what the term millennium was and what it meant and what it connected to. But it's designed to describe at least an aspect of the period of consummation that we see in the Old Testament in a variety of passages, etc. I don't take it as a symbolic figure for a period of time, but I actually see it as a period that has a before and an after, that is connected to a thousand years in contrast to where the church finds itself when the book of Revelation is being written. So, it isn't presented in such a way, oh, you're in this period now. This is something that we're looking forward to. 

And that's a difference between premillennialism and amillennialism. Premillennialism says that we're in a period now and Christ will return before he establishes this thousand-year reign on the earth. Whereas I think, Sam, what you're saying is that, no, we're in the midst of the millennium now, and Christ is going to come back and he's going to set up the new heavens and the new earth and the consummation in the end. So, there is no millennium in the sense that I'm describing it. And so it's called amillennialism, just like an atheist doesn't believe in theology, not that I'm comparing you to an atheist, mind you. And so, that's where the terms come from. 

And then postmillennialism, you talked about preterism earlier. Postmillennialism is the idea of, there's been a millennium and Christ is going to come and we're very much in it and Christ is going to come back and finish the job, basically. So, I think that's the difference between the variety of views. But I'm like you, I can't get my head around preterism. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So, for our listener, is preterism, postmillennialism? Or is it another view? So, just so that we're clear about what views we're presenting. 

Darrell Bock: 

I think I would say, it depends on how it's described. For many people, the key to preterism is, in effect, Christ returned with the judgment on Israel in AD 70. And the Olivet discourse is only about the short term. And the argument for that is, well, he's talking to the disciples, he's got to be describing something that they experienced. Whereas, if you have a view about the second coming, you've got this problem, everybody has it, about why in the world is he telling the disciples about something they're actually not going to experience? Why is that? 

And this is where the pattern prophecy idea comes in, because as Sam mentioned earlier, one view of the Olivet discourse is, that Jesus is talking about both what's going to happen in AD 70 and what's happening at the end, because the experience of AD 70 is like the end. And so, the short term is like the long term, and you can talk about both of them simultaneously. And then in Luke, uniquely to Luke, in the Olivet discourse, he gives a set of signs and then he kind of rolls the chronology backwards, rather than going forward, because in the middle of that discourse, he says, before these things that he's just listed, are other things that are going to happen, including the persecution of the disciples, in synagogues and before Kings, which he's describing things that happen in Acts. And I feel like, now if you're a listener and you're just new to this, oh my goodness, are you lost? 

Kymberli Cook: 

Don't worry, I'm about to stop the whole conversation and make sure that we're… 

Darrell Bock: 

But what I'm trying to show you is, this is why this conversation is so complicated and this is why different people hold different views, because they put the package together slightly differently. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So, the- 

Sam Storms: 

Let me just, if I can riff a little bit off of what Darrell just said about the Olivet discourse. The way I like to describe it is, I think Jesus is describing both on a microcosmic level or local level, what's going to happen in Israel with the destruction of the temple and the city in 70 AD. But it's also, as he said, a pattern or a foreshadowing of what will happen on a global scale or a macrocosmic level, when the second coming happens. So, there are things that occurred in the first century, basically from 30 to 70 AD, that we will see happening on a global scale as we approach the second coming. 

One other thing I want to mention, because Darrell already mentioned the word amillennial. I don't like that, because it makes it sound like I don't believe in the millennium. I do, because it's in the Bible. So we talk about people being apolitical or amoral or atheists. So, amillennialists do believe in the millennium. They just don't see it as a future thousand-year reign on the earth, but rather something that is happening in the intermediate state between the two comings of Christ. 

One other thing that I want to mention, this may take us off into a different direction, but I believe that the premillennial view of the consummation of God's purposes and the amillennial view, actually share more in common than we've been led to believe. Because the premillennial view, all versions of premillennialism insist upon this earthly fulfillment of promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And I believe in that as well. I just think it's the new earth, not this old earth, in which those promises will be fulfilled. 

So, unfortunately, some amillennialists of previous generations tended to, and this is the word that critics of amillennialism use, they spiritualize the land promises or they kind of vaporize the really earthy reality of what God's going to do. And I don't believe that at all. I think the land and its literal fulfillment on earth, is very much a part of an amillennial view. It's just the new earth that has been redeemed and delivered from the curse. So, there's actually much more commonality there than is otherwise thought. So, I just wanted to throw that in. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Okay. So, I'm going to stop real quick for the sake of our listener. So we have, and I am sure that these wonderfully well-versed scholars are about to cringe inside as I describe this. But what we have, as we're talking about, and again, my goal with the podcast is to give the listener a paradigm or at least an understanding, a mental picture of this conversation. So, how we're going to do that is, we're going to talk about four different swimming pools. Because you can't really… Hopping in and out of a swimming pool is a difficult thing. So, when you get in, you're kind of in and there's this whole world that's kind of happening and there's this whole approach to scripture and this whole way of reading the Bible and understanding different things there as you get in. 

So the four pools that we have talked about thus far, just to review, are amillennialism, postmillennialism. Well, we've talked about three. And then premillennialism technically kind of has a little partition down the middle. And there's two different types of premillennialism, and we'll get into that in a second. But Sam, you just kind of took us into the waters of amillennialism, as you were presenting that and talking about that a little bit more in depth. 

So, Darrell, is there anything else for the sake of understanding amillennialism, that you would add to what Sam was just saying, as far as understanding what is going on in that pool, the interpretations, the convictions, that kind of thing, Sam has introduced? And Sam, we'll come back to you as well. But Darrell, what would you add for understanding that pool? 

Darrell Bock: 

I actually agree with Sam that there's more agreement across amillennialism and premillennialism than generally speaking has been recognized. And the way I say it, and hopefully this is simple is, what premillennialism sees in two steps, amillennialism sees in one step. And so… 

Kymberli Cook: 

And what is that? 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, Christ comes back. And in premillennialism Christ comes back, there's a thousand-year earthly reign, and then there's a new heavens and a new earth. In amillennialism, Christ comes back and there's a new heaven and a new earth. So, I think that's, if I were to simplify this without being, and I don't think it's an oversimplification. If I were to simplify this in a way that someone could understand, that would be the major, all the things that we hope will happen within that period, almost all of them are shared, in terms of what Christ is going to do when he comes back in establishing righteousness, in dealing with evil, in vindicating the saints, in establishing what we originally think of as heaven and being with God forever in a totally righteous environment. All those things are shared. It's just how that plays itself out. Now, Sam, is that a fair way to talk about the difference? 

Sam Storms: 

Yeah. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So, amillennialism is saying that, that biblical concept of the millennium that we were talking about from Revelation, is happening now. And Christ will return and that then launches us into, hey this is what we all believe as Christians, that Christ will bodily return and establish his kingdom and judge the living and the dead, and there will be a resurrection of the dead. At that point, we all agree. But amillennialism is saying that that millennium is occurring now. Sam, what else would you add as far as us understanding this pool? 

Sam Storms: 

I would just say, and again, just as there are differing perspectives on premillennial, dispensational, historic, there are different versions of amillennialism. And I just wanted to make it clear, that when we say the millennium is now, I don't think we can look around ourselves and look at the church and what's going on in the world and say, oh yeah, the millennium is here. I believe the millennium is describing the intermediate state, that is the reign of Christ, the right hand of the Father, between the two comings. And it's intermediate because it's in between our life on this earth and our life in the age to come. It's where the saints have gone. They're in a disembodied condition with Christ, ruling and reigning with Him. Now, it's important at this point to say just a little bit about postmillennialism because, I think Darrell would recognize this as well. I'm seeing that postmillennialism is amazingly on the rise. We're seeing more and more evangelicals embrace this view, which… Postmillennialism is an odd bird because it seems to fluctuate with the political and cultural trends that we've seen over the last several hundred years. 

Kymberli Cook: 

I'm going to interrupt you real quick. Just for the sake of our listener, because now we're hopping into a second pool. Can you describe what postmillennialism is, its convictions, its understanding of the millennium? And then we can talk about the odd bird nature of it, in y'all's words, but can you describe it first so that our listener can understand what it is? 

Sam Storms: 

Sure. Well, both amillennialism and postmillennialism are very similar in that, we believe the second coming happens after or post the millennial kingdom. Amill says it's in heaven, the reign of Christ in the intermediate state. The postmillennialist says, no, the reign is here on earth. And postmillennialists would differ somewhat in that, they would say, some would say, we're not quite yet in the millennial reign, but we're progressing toward it, and it will emerge gradually as Christians began to Christianize the world, socio-economic structures, political, governmental entities, educational, will all be gradually transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit, through the gospel. And that will consummate in the second coming of Jesus. So, it's a very optimistic view of life in the earth. 

And the reason I tied this to cultural and political trends is, people look at what's happening in our society, the disintegration of the moral fabric of our world and all sorts of transformations, and they're so depressed by it and so frightened by it. Postmillennialism gives them what they believe is a hope for improvement and in progress, that ultimately the great commission will be fulfilled, the world will be Christianized, structures of society will be transformed according to biblical principles, and then Christ will come. So, it's a very, if I can put it this way, a very optimistic amillennialism. 

So, the postmillennialists would call me a pessimistic postmillennialist. I know that's throwing a lot of terms in there, but it does have to do with, do we believe that the kingdom of God that has obviously come and broken in with the person and work of Christ, do we believe that that's going to lead to a progressive ever-upward improving and transformation of culture and society as a whole, then Christ returns? Or, and this is where I share Darrell's view with most premillennialists, I think we're seeing an increasing disintegration. 

Now, granted, the kingdom of God accomplishes a great many things, and we love the transformations we see, but I don't think things are going to get better and better. I think we're going to see a progressive deterioration and increasing global persecution of the church, which will then be consummated by Christ's return. So, people think, postmill, just think of the millennium is now either here progressively or already here. It's going to extend in such a way that the gospel transforms the society and they aren't necessarily universalists, but they would say the vast majority of people will eventually be saved, then Christ will return. My view is that, yes, the millennium is now, but it's in heaven, the intermediate state. Things are not going to improve, although I'd be happy for any improvement that we see. 

Kymberli Cook: 

We're not going to try to get in the way. 

Sam Storms: 

Yeah, I've often said that I'd be very happy if the postmillennialists are correct. My friend John Piper pushed back on me. He said, "No." He said, "If they're correct, that means the second coming is way off in the future and we can't really-" 

Darrell Bock: 

A lot of work to do. 

Sam Storms: 

Yeah, there's a lot of work to do. He said, "I want him to return now." But yeah, the postmill, just people think, cultural, political, educational, spiritual improvement that leads to the consummation of Christ returning. Premill and amill share the view that, whatever little improvement we see, basically things are getting worse and worse, and it's going to be, the only thing that's going to reverse that is the second coming of Jesus himself, when he destroys his enemies at the second coming. 

Darrell Bock: 

And so, Sam was talking about this ebb and flow with postmillennialism. It's important I think, to think through the history of the church, because in the middle part of the 19th century, there were a lot of postmillennialists who were seeing culture progress and innovation coming. And they thought, oh, we're on the path of things growing. And then World War I happened. And when World War I happened, that was kind of, it wasn't the death knell, but it certainly put a huge shadow over postmillennialism. And postmillennialism went from being very, very popular to being very, very rarely held. And of course the second World War came right after that, which just continued the push. And we're seeing this return of postmillennialism in the church and the idea that Christ is supposed to dominate all these structures hidden in all this conversation between the various views, is the way in which the kingdom of God is perceived and the way in which Christ's reign is perceived. 

Kymberli Cook: 

This is another one of those themes that we were talking about earlier. 

Darrell Bock: 

This is one of those themes. And this is actually a major theme, how you see Christ's rule and reign manifesting itself. Most Christians, except for perhaps traditional dispensationalists, see the current period as a period of the kingdom being inaugurated in one sense or another of the meaning of that term, and Christ's rule being manifested itself. Sam's been emphasizing the kind of rule that takes place in the intermediate state, that's where he puts it. I also have the idea that Christ rules and reigns. He rules and reigns primarily through the spirit and dwelled people of the church on the earth. The church is supposed to be the representation of the kingdom on the earth. That's where I put the stress. He also makes a claim. 

Sam Storms: 

I would agree with that by the way, Darrell. 

Darrell Bock: 

And then he makes a claim on every human being because he has this position, to which they are accountable. And to me, when I think about the reign and rule of Christ, that's what I'm thinking about. So, I'm not so much isolating it in the intermediate state, as I'm saying, the church is called to be this representation of the kingdom of God now and to reflect what God is trying to do to restore people in the totality of salvation now. And the church is called to be a witness, a distinct way of living in the midst of the world. That's where the ethical thrust comes from. And that's a manifestation of the kingdom of God. But it won't be perfect and settled until he comes back and establishes a physical rule and his presence. I like to joke that when Jesus comes back, no one will debate who the Pope is. And so, it'll be very clear who's ruling the operation. 

Kymberli Cook: 

And so, just to be clear, so then it seems like, as you guys were describing, the post-millennial view, they would actually say something very similar to what you were just saying. 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, except… 

Kymberli Cook: 

Except, they would say, it will ultimately- 

Darrell Bock: 

And we're going to fix it. The church is going to fix it. 

Kymberli Cook: 

There will be a level of perfection. 

Darrell Bock: 

My point is the church is not going to fix it. The church is going to witness to what it will be, but the church is not going to fix it. Only Christ will fix it. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So, then we get to the third pool. 

Sam Storms: 

Before we do that, can I just say one thing? 

Kymberli Cook: 

Sure. 

Sam Storms: 

I want to affirm everything Darrell just said because I agree completely. In saying that I believe the millennium is primarily a reference to the rule of Christ now from the intermediate state, I still believe everything that Darrell just said, I agree that the church expresses and extends the kingdom rule of the Lord Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit in the gospel to bear witness to that, and the lives of transformed believers are affecting all sectors of society. So, I actually would agree with everything he just said. So, by relegating the millennium itself to the intermediate state, I don't want to suggest that somehow the Lord is not expanding his kingdom now and transforming lives, and to certain extent here and there, transforming the culture and society. I just don't think it's going to result in perfection prior to the second coming of Jesus. 

Darrell Bock: 

And I agree with that. So, we're having a party here. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So as far as that third pool goes, the premillennial pool, and I don't know that we're going to have too much time. If you're listening and you're like, oh my goodness, I have to hear about this thing called dispensationalism, we have two or three different podcasts, so just go ahead and search that. I don't know that we're going to have time to jump too much into that. Let's just focus on the premillennial pool. So, the premillennial pool, from what you have said so far, is that the millennium is going to occur before the second coming of Christ, correct? 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, no, that Christ comes before the millennium is established, but then the millennium is a final kind of event in the history of this earth, that has Christ present, has all the right environment, and yet we rebel one more time. And at the end of that, Christ judges, Satan, et cetera, and righteousness is established and the new heavens and the new Earth come. As I said earlier, what premillennialism has in two steps, amillennialism has in one step. That's just a simple way to think about it. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So, why does premillennialism, according to what it's reading in the Bible, why does premillennialism feel the need to make that two steps? 

Darrell Bock: 

Because there are texts in the Old Testament that suggests that there's something going on in the history of the earth, in which Israel and the nations are brought together. The passage I like to refer to is in Isaiah 19, and it talks about a highway that runs from Egypt through Jerusalem to Assyria. Now, Egypt and Assyria are generally traditionally enemies of Israel, but in this passage, they are reconciled to one another. Each nation has a label that says they belong to God and they're all gathering to worship in Jerusalem. And the picture is of this unified global worship. I tell people that, when I think about premillennialism, it's not a form of Israeli nationalism, because sometimes the focus on Israel leaves the impression that this is a focus on Israelite nationalism. No, it actually is part of the global reconciliation that is pictured in which the nations and Israel are functioning as one. They're all worshiping the same God, they're engaged in this universal recognition of God, and they're sharing brother and sisterhood with one another, which of course also is the picture of Ephesians 2:11-22. 

But now Israel, which had rejected the Messiah and had kind of been shoved off to the side in the story of the New Testament, comes back into the equation, because they respond to the Messiah and they become part of this global work and this history, and then we have this perfect environment that reminds us why it is that God's grace has to be present. God's grace has to be present because, if we're left to our own devices, we will inevitably show that we need God. And so, that's the way I think premillennialism sees, that they take these Old Testament texts… And this has to do with the progress of Revelation. This is where a difference emerges how progress of Revelation gets handled. 

They take these texts and they say, these texts are describing what goes on, and this is what we're supposed to do. So that when Peter in Acts 3 says, "If you want to read about what's to come when Christ comes back, just read your Hebrew scriptures." The remark is, well, he isn't saying that this has been reconfigured. No, that's telling you what's going to happen in the end. And so the discussion that I have with an amillennialist is, what happens to these texts in the Old Testament that are saying one thing, that get, how can I say, reframed. I'm trying to find a good neutral term. That get reframed in a certain way and get seen in a certain way that's different than what it looks like is being described initially in terms of this earth. 

And then what's happened in amillennialism, just to add to the confusion. What's happened in amillennialism, amillennialism itself has taken that give and take seriously, and where they used to have not much space about talking what was going on on this earth, they now very much have a space where they talk about what's going on on this earth, as a part of the one-step consummation as opposed to the two-step consummation. I hope I've said that fairly. 

Sam Storms: 

Yeah, I'd say that's a very helpful way of thinking about the difference between all premillennial views and amillennialism. What Darrell just described as being prophesied in the Old Testament, he believes is going to be fulfilled in two steps. The first step is the thousand years of human history following the second coming, and then also in the new heavens, the new earth. The amillennial view says that the things that Darrell just described in those many texts, I believe will be fulfilled, but they'll be fulfilled in the new heavens and the new earth. There's not an intervening thousand-year period between the second coming and the new heavens and the new Earth. That's the fundamental difference, is not whether those texts will be fulfilled, but in what way and at what time and where is it going to be fulfilled, in this current earth prior to the new heavens and the new earth or in the new heavens and the new earth itself. 

Kymberli Cook: 

And what would our somewhat unrepresented pool of posttribulation… Not posttribulation, goodness, we're not going there. Postmillennialists, what would they say about that set of texts that you're talking about? Go ahead. 

Sam Storms: 

I think they would largely put the fulfillment of those texts in this present church age. So, in other words, those texts will find their fulfillment in the progressive growth, expansion, and victory of the church in this present day, that then leads to the second coming. So postmillennialists would not see it being fulfilled in a thousand-year reign following the coming of Christ, nor primarily or exclusively in the new heavens and new Earth. They would see it largely fulfilled now in the present progress of the church leading up to the second coming. Now, they would of course hold to a view of the new heavens and the earth that I do, but they want to put those references to the kings of the earth coming and worshiping around Jesus and the renewal of creation and the transformation of society as a whole. They want to see that happening in the present day before the second coming. 

Darrell Bock: 

And the church is the mechanism for making that happen, that's the key, is that the church is the entity through which that happens. Whereas I think for amillennialists and for premillennialists, Christ is the one who makes that happen. So, in a postmillennial view, the church kind of sets the table for Jesus, and when we get to the banquet, they've already prepared the meal, and banquet being an image for consummation. Whereas for amillennialists and postmillennialists, no. Jesus is the one who gives the banquet, he's the one who prepares the meal, he's the one around whom we celebrate. So, if you're thinking about the difference between the three pools that we've been talking about, that's probably the simplest way to present the nature of the difference. 

Kymberli Cook: 

And so, just to reiterate, as we're winding down, we only have just a couple of minutes left. What is it that unites all of these pools in the same waterpark? So, to go outside certain fences, is to no longer be in the Christian water park. 

Darrell Bock: 

I'm so Baptist at the moment, I'm feeling very wet. 

Sam Storms: 

I think what unites them, this is what I mentioned at the outset, and that is, we believe that, regardless of how much or how little improvement we see in our world through this present church age, the consummation and the ultimate transformation will only happen when the Lord Jesus Christ returns personally, physically, visibly. The Acts 1, where the angel said, "Why do you look into the heavens? This Jesus who was taken up from you will return in like manner." And then we read in 1 Thessalonians 4, how he comes in the clouds of heaven with the shout of the archangel, the blast of the trumpet. 

So, I think what unites us, that we have to build fellowship around is, the reality of the second coming of Jesus, which as I've said before, puts us in a completely different worldview and different camp from the preterist. Preterist basically means past. They say basically, all prophecy has already been fulfilled. There's really nothing more to look forward to because it's all happened and was fulfilled spiritually in Christ's return in judgment against Israel in 70 AD. And so, there's nothing left. So, everything that, Darrell and I've been talking about, the various options, is a moot point to the preterist. But what unites us is our confident expectation and hope that Christ is going to return, he's going to consummate his kingdom, bring to fruition everything that has been promised in both the Old and the New Testaments. 

Darrell Bock: 

And peace will reign, righteousness will be established, evil will be dealt with, justice will be manifest, and man I can't wait. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Bodies will be resurrected. That's an important part. 

Darrell Bock: 

Which means, yeah, I've already put in my request, I want a 20-year-old body with a 60-year-old mind. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Oh, yeah. I didn't know requests were on the table. That's good to know. All right. Well, gentlemen, thank you so much for your time and again, for your attention throughout your life to all of these details and all the passages that are there and trying to think as deeply and thoughtfully as possible to make sense of what it is that has been revealed to us as believers. So, we really appreciate that work as well as your time here today. Thank you so much for being with us. 

Sam Storms: 

It's a pleasure. Thanks for having me on. It's good to see Darrell. We typically only see each other once a year at the Evangelical Theological Society. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Exactly right. It's great to connect, Sam, and I don't hold your grading against you. Okay? I just want you to know that. 

Sam Storms: 

Let me tell you a real quick story. It won't take long. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. 

Sam Storms: 

One of the people for whom I also graded was Dan Wallace. And I'll never forget trying to read a textual critical problem that Dan wrote in his exegetical paper. I went to John Grassmick, I said, "This guy's from a different planet. I mean, no way can I read this." And so, he helped me process Dan. So, I always tell Dan, I said, "Dan, this great Greek scholar, this great Greek , I'm the one that tutored him. I'm the one 

Kymberli Cook: 

You're the one that helps out. 

Sam Storms: 

I'll take all the credit for it. 

Darrell Bock: 

I was going to say, well, you just had to grade with him. I had to be his colleague for years. I spent my life translating Wallace. So, anyway. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So, thank you gentlemen for joining us, and we want to thank you, our listener for being with us. If you like our show, leave a review or rating on your favorite podcast app, so that others can discover us, and we hope that you'll join us next time as we discuss issues of God and culture, to show the relevance of theology to everyday life.