Why Go To Church?

And we're joined by Dr. Michael Svigel, the department chair and professor of theological studies, and Dr. Glenn Kreider, who is a professor of theological studies both here at DTS. So, we're thrilled to have you all. Thank you so much for joining us today.

And so, whereas old church regular church attendance might have been considered three or four Sundays a month, people who legitimately consider themselves regular church attenders may only attend once a month, once every six weeks, and they consider that regular attendance, which is just very different. It's a shift from what we have historically seen.

So, there's that dimension. And in a Pew Research study in 2014, it talked about how boomers are reducing their attendance and just essentially not coming anymore, especially after they retire, and they just kind of retire from church, too. And not to mention everything that we see online about Gen Z and Millennials.

In fact, we had a focus group with some Millennial women leaders who – we usually throw out this question; we say, "What is one podcast that you'd like to see? What's something that would be helpful, a question you'd like to be asked?"

And they said, "Please do one on why should we – why people should go to church, because we have that conversation all the time with the women we're trying to mentor and trying to convince them that they need to go to church and it's an important thing."

So, while it seems very elementary to some people, it's a very real issue; it's a very real – I guess it's a reality, and the question is, is it even a problem? Is it okay? It's just a shift that we've seen in our culture, or is it I indicative of something that is not good that we need to be aware of and address?

So, Dr. Svigel, let's start with you.

So, back in the day, going to church was just part of American culture oftentimes. They'd go to church because mommy and daddy went to church, 'cause grandma and grandpa went to church. And as the American Western identity is less and less Christian, you're going to see a decreasing number of people going to church regularly.

So, we're going to set that aside and really address the people who identify themselves as believers, those who have had some kind of a conversion experience or consider themselves devoted Christians or Christ followers. We're seeing even those people not seeing the significance or relevance of going to church regularly, as you say. And so, we're talking about those – that particular category.

So, I would say it is definitely a problem, and we'll discuss this a bit today, some of the biblical theological practical reasons for church attendance. But yeah, I want to make sure that we're talking about the same groups, yes, mm-hmm.

Today, with all kinds of other options, people are busy, and they sometimes kind of fall into a habit of not going and waking up sometime later and realizing, "You know, I haven't been to church in a long time."

So, we are definitely, if I can use this term, in competition with a number of things claiming to be relevant for a person's social dimension, relationships, as well as spiritual care and feeding. And so, there is that question, "Why would I need to actually go to a brick and mortar building," because that's how many people think of church. Even though we insist over and over again church is not about the building; it's the people, 90 percent of the time we use the word "church" we're probably talking about a place.

So, you brought up what is the church. So, let's just jump into that conversation a little bit. Maybe part of why people aren't seeing it as important as it has been in the past, in addition to technological advances and just shift in culture and that kind of thing is because there's been a lack of education as to what –

Dr. Kreider, why don't you jump in with what do we – what should we understand the church is.

But something happens, and as dispensationalists, we believe the Church is a new part of God's plan. It's a different way of uniting people together through the covenant that God instituted through the person and work of Christ and His death, burial, and resurrection.

And so, there's a transition from the people of God under the old covenant, Israel and the people connected to Israel and then this new part, this new people of God, this new – this – it's not a new people, but it's a new way of describing God's people – [clears throat] – excuse me – that's made up of not one ethnicity but made up of Jews and Gentiles, slave and free, male and female so that no longer is the constitution of the nation the thing that unites its faith in Christ.

The other way to get at the question, I think, is to see – it's easier to describe what the Church is than to define it. The Greek word ekklesia, which means assembly, many people argue is that's what the church means; it's people assembled together.

But it seems to me that in the New Testament, when, particularly in the epistles, when that word ekklesia is used, it's used of a people, not of a people gathered together. So, what is it that unites this people? It's they're people related to God through the new covenant.

And then the metaphors that the Bible uses, it's a body, it's a bride, it's a household, it's a family, it's a – what am I missing? – a field, all of which are pictures of a group of people together made up of various people, various ethnicities, et cetera, and different functions that are all united together in one common purpose.

So, my simple definition of the church, it's the new covenant community. And what marks them is faith in Christ and the indwelling work of the Spirit.

So, if you look at it as the identity-forging marks as orthodoxy, order, and ordinances, you're already seeing that you're dealing with something more than just a gathering of a few believers.

And so, we begin to see this is a little bit more complicated than just a social media online group –

And that somehow the mission of God in this world, that God is worshiped by a variety of voices gathered together and worshiping Him, that brings glory to Him and reveals who He is, and carrying out the call to follow Jesus and to be part of this community to join with others in doing so is the focus and the function of the church. Those marks are not at all unimportant, and they contribute to the great commandment, loving God and loving others; and the Great Commission, making disciples.

That sounds like really big, grandiose pictures that, in some ways, I can see is me getting together with my friends on a Saturday at Starbucks. In some ways I can see your point, you know, that there are – there's order and ordinances – you know, communion and baptism aren't necessarily happening there, that kind of thing. Okay, I can see you, but what is my specific role in this community that you're talking about and what makes it important for me to show up?

And I know this again pretty theoretical and difficult to help people feel what that's like, but that historically that diversity is a really important function that that 20-something or college student actually needs to be involved in a community with people younger and older, people from a variety of backgrounds and experiences.

And it's not simply that you glean something from or learn something from, although that's an important test, too. But you're mentored by, and you're actually – something actually happens when people who have a common goal, a common focus and a common identity in the person and work of Christ do life together.

But for the purpose of equipping the saints – that is the members of that community who have come together from every walk of life – to do the work of the ministry. And that work of the ministry is for the building up of the body of Christ. That is the encouraging and exhorting of one another to love God and love one another.

And I also love the idea of diversity as well. It challenges you when you're rubbing shoulders and just doing life with people who are older than you, from a different generation; people who are from a different ethnicity, different language, different culture. It makes things not just more interesting; it actually spurs us to a depth of love and concern and understanding that we couldn't have in any other way.

And so, that just bringing together – of course, if it's real community and fellowship – just sitting next to somebody's who's different, watching, and then leaving as part of a common audience, you might as well go to a concert. We're talking about real, much more deeper life together than just kind of a superficial lining up in rows.

But I would also – I mean I think somewhere in this conversation it's important – and I'll be that guy – that the writer of Hebrews, in chapter 10, actually does instruct followers of Jesus not to forsake the assembly together. And for those who take the Scripture seriously, I think that voice needs to be heard, too. I mean that's not the only answer to the question –

And so, I would say, at this point, though, as you do it, and many listeners will know this, that as you do though, start to get tangled up in community, and you're doing your life together, that can lead to a little bit of discomfort and even pain, maybe even some suffering because we're all – not one of us is a –

So, there is a beauty to showing up and that’s something – particularly the younger generations are well-known for being noncommittal in that kind of thing, but even for the older ones who are starting to not come, there's – there is – there's something about – and we've talked about this on other podcasts, there's something about the physical presence, and we believe that the physical body matters; that's a very Christian belief. And so, when I physically choose to show up and to take the time, which is one of our greatest commodities nowadays is time – that when I do that, I'm – it's an act of worship in and of itself; it's an act of love and service to other believers, and it's an act of obedience is what I'm hearing.

And then the spiritual – especially in the Augustinian and Protestant tradition, the distinction between visible and invisible church is the invisible church is really the true believers, the true believers known to God in the visible church. And the idea is any local church would be a mixed group. Not everybody is necessarily a genuine Christian; that's the understanding.

So, in a proper understanding of these terms, there really isn't a lot of room for the –

And so, that if you just shift a few of these ideas of what the church is and what it's supposed to do – and how do I grow spiritually is another dimension of this. We've taught – been taught and taught others that the key to spiritual growth is read your Bible, pray every day, and "You'll Grow, Grow, Grow" is the old children's song. Well, it's really hard to defend that biblically, ironically.

So, when we make that shift, that adjustment, now the question is should be – not should I go to church, but what does that involvement in church look like?

But there are several common things that seem to come up as – I don't want to say as arguments for not attending church, but as reasons, as justifications that people bring up. And I think some of the things we've talked about, and other biblical and theological concepts will arise as we kind of work through them. So, I'm just gonna start throwing them out, and we can discuss however many we get to and how we need to think through these particular things that we really, if you are a regular church attender, that you may hear another person say, or that you may personally be holding to, and it's kind of affecting whether or not you show up.

So, I would say, again, bring them back to the definition of the church. A lot of groups – small groups, parachurch ministries – do accomplish one or two of these things, these works of the church, but an authentic, bona fide body of Christ is going to be accomplishing all of those things.

And it's – it's the same reason you don't just eat sugar candy all day, or why you don't just eat wheat, or you don't just eat meat. We are designed to have a balanced diet of various nutrients. And the same thing is true – you don't just read your Bible; you don't just pray; you don't just – but you are doing all of these things together in community to the end of the transformation of one another in the glory of God.

So, if what Dr. Kreider says is true – and it is – that Hebrews says, "Do not forsake the assembling of yourselves together," doing that is not being legalistic; it's being obedient.

But here's what happens. The missing one Sunday turns into missing two Sundays turns into missing – you know it's not that big a deal. And I think somewhere in that tension between we're free to – we have freedom, but we also have responsibilities –

So, I often hear people talk about the problem with sporting events being scheduled on Sundays. And that is a problem, but it doesn't – we don't need a law that requires you to do it. You know, people's response to – that keep the law because it's a law is almost always innate rebellion against it.

So, I would just say that if you have a pattern of never attending, that's a problem. If you're making more excuses than not – because we actually do need – we're back to the family. How many family reunions do you miss before you miss being a part of your family?

So – but I think if people understand what the church is, understand what it does and how important their attendance in that community, involvement in the community is for them and for others –

And when you start to view that over the long term as a family, that sense of responsibility will kick in, even when you don't want to. And that itself is transformative.

The pendulum is, "Well, I can't find a church that I like, or I can't find a church that has solid biblical teaching, that has solid teaching in my area; so, it just hasn't happened." So, what would you say to those people?

Nothing is gonna fit what you were taught at the church growing up, or the person who led you to the Lord, or discipled you and told you the way things – not every church is going to teach that. Not every church is going to be like you think it should be. And we're just going to have to deal with imperfect people.

So, ideally, I'm more of a kind of a communitarian in the sense of would rather shop locally; I'd rather go to church locally. And so, you pick a church that's basically within your general tradition, and you go with it, and you contribute to that community.

So, I would really strongly urge people to not get in the cycle of what they call church shopping – you know? – spending a little time, then getting bored and moving on to the next thing, but to really stick through it through the long haul.

But there is an element of that commitment to –

So, reemphasizing underscores the fact that this is viewed as a covenant community. It is a new covenant community of the Spirit. It is just as serious a covenant – and more serious a covenant than even the covenant we make in marriage. And if people start taking their membership involvement then in that community as serious as they would a covenant commitment, it would lead to, yes, "Okay, I don't feel like doing this, but this is my – these are my people, and I have an obligation to them."

So, I think changing just the perception of what does church membership really mean and what does it entail – even if your church doesn't have official membership, or even if they don't articulate it that way, you can, as an individual, commit to, "I'm gonna treat this like a covenant commitment until someone breaks that covenant," which does happen, of course.

'Cause it is – we don't want to – we don't want to – I wouldn't want to encourage pastors just to simply say, "You need to be here." 'Cause there are all kinds of ways, in the midst of the way we practice church, all kinds of ways we can do it.

I would also encourage them to very quickly get people involved and actually live out the priesthood of all believers, that equipping the saints for the work of ministry. Let people know that they're just wanted at church; they're needed there. And be specific, "We need you for this. We want you to be involved in this." It's really hard to feel dislocated from a church when you're depended on and your presence is actually felt and needed.

And, Dr. Svigel, you kind of walked through a variety of things that it does and descriptions. And we need to help people understand that.

And then we need to also recognize that we have been commanded to go, and we need to – you know, that's not legalism to be obedient, and really to recognize that our presence is physically important, is spiritually important for ourselves, as well as for other people, and to disregard that is to disregard much of what we see in Scripture, talking about the community of believers and, I mean, to essentially just obey. But not even just that we're missing out on deep spiritual things and nutrients that the Lord has for us.